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Need all experts on this one [#permalink] New post 28 Jun 2007, 18:36
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Guys I have encountered two such questions which pose the problem of using "which".
First, does someone properly know what "which" modifies when it has

1) a compound noun preceding it (Does it modifies one of them or both?)
2) a clause (separated by comma) with a noun just before the comma (Does it modifies the whole clause or just the noun?)
3) a clause which has a subject and a prepositional phrase (Does it modifies the whole clause or just the prepositional phrase?)

The two questions are as follow;

1) Executives and federal officials say that the use of crack and cocaine is growing rapidly among workers, significantly compounding the effects of drug and alcohol abuse, which already are a cost to business of more than $100 billion a year.

(A) significantly compounding the effects of drug and alcohol abuse, which already are a cost to business of
(B) significantly compounding the effects of drug and alcohol abuse, which already cost business
(C) significantly compounding the effects of drug and alcohol abuse, already with business costs of
(D) significant in compounding the effects of drug and alcohol abuse, and already costing business
(E) significant in compounding the effects of drug and alcohol abuse, and already costs business


2) Declining values for farm equipment and land, the collateral against which farmers borrow to get through the harvest season, is going to force many lenders to tighten or deny credit this spring.
(A) the collateral against which farmers borrow to get through the harvest season, is
(B) which farmers use as collateral to borrow against to get through the harvest season, is
(C) the collateral which is borrowed against by farmers to get through the harvest season, is
(D) which farmers use as collateral to borrow against to get through the harvest season, are
(E) the collateral against which farmers borrow to get through the harvest season, are


I know both of these questions have been discussed in detail but no consensus had been reached about the rules regarding "which".
Please help me.

CB
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 [#permalink] New post 28 Jun 2007, 19:19
Well, you have valid doubts.

Remeber, the relative pronoun “which” should be used to refer to a noun and not an idea or an action presented in an entire clause.

So you just have to look at the noun.

In your questions, B and E are the correct choices.

In SC1, "which" is modifying "effects" (a plural noun) that is followed by plural verb "cost".

In SC2, "which" is modifying "collateral" ( again a noun)
Moreover, in SC2, there should be S-V agreement
"Declining values" should go with "are".

- Brajesh
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 [#permalink] New post 29 Jun 2007, 00:45
"Which" can be used in either cases and can replace "that" to introduce restrictive clauses.

Check this link for more explanation:

http://www.bartleby.com/64/pages/page39.html
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 [#permalink] New post 29 Jun 2007, 01:20
In Q1 what's wrong with C
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 [#permalink] New post 29 Jun 2007, 02:22
vshaunak@gmail.com wrote:
In Q1 what's wrong with C


It gives wrong meaning to the sentence. What I interpreted is the drug and alcohol abuse business is costing $100billion. (It means the business is worth $100billion).
The intended meaning is the drug and alcohol abuseis costing the business $100billion (loss of $100billion).
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 [#permalink] New post 29 Jun 2007, 02:30
buzzgaurav wrote:
"Which" can be used in either cases and can replace "that" to introduce restrictive clauses.

Check this link for more explanation:

http://www.bartleby.com/64/pages/page39.html


Does the rule where "which" is used as restrictive clause applicable to GMAT ?
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 [#permalink] New post 29 Jun 2007, 03:09
B and E are correct..
For the second one D was also a concern.
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 [#permalink] New post 01 Jul 2007, 18:05
b14kumar wrote:
Well, you have valid doubts.

Remeber, the relative pronoun “which” should be used to refer to a noun and not an idea or an action presented in an entire clause.

So you just have to look at the noun.

In your questions, B and E are the correct choices.

In SC1, "which" is modifying "effects" (a plural noun) that is followed by plural verb "cost".

In SC2, "which" is modifying "collateral" ( again a noun)
Moreover, in SC2, there should be S-V agreement
"Declining values" should go with "are".

- Brajesh


Thanks Brajesh for such a concise explanation.
Can you tell me what "the collateral" is modifying in SC2? Is it modifying" Declining values for farm equipment and land" or just "farm equipment and land ".
Also does which (as in case of SC1) always modify the noun and not the prepositional phrase?

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 [#permalink] New post 30 Jul 2007, 09:51
computer-bot wrote:
b14kumar wrote:
Well, you have valid doubts.

Remeber, the relative pronoun “which” should be used to refer to a noun and not an idea or an action presented in an entire clause.

So you just have to look at the noun.

In your questions, B and E are the correct choices.

In SC1, "which" is modifying "effects" (a plural noun) that is followed by plural verb "cost".

In SC2, "which" is modifying "collateral" ( again a noun)
Moreover, in SC2, there should be S-V agreement
"Declining values" should go with "are".

- Brajesh


Thanks Brajesh for such a concise explanation.
Can you tell me what "the collateral" is modifying in SC2? Is it modifying" Declining values for farm equipment and land" or just "farm equipment and land ".
Also does which (as in case of SC1) always modify the noun and not the prepositional phrase?

CB


"the collateral" is modifying "farm equipment and land ". It is an appositive.

I am still not sure what "which" is replacing ni that sentence.
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Re: Need all experts on this one [#permalink] New post 30 Jul 2007, 09:59
b14kumar wrote:
Well, you have valid doubts.

Remeber, the relative pronoun “which” should be used to refer to a noun and not an idea or an action presented in an entire clause.

So you just have to look at the noun.

In your questions, B and E are the correct choices.

In SC1, "which" is modifying "effects" (a plural noun) that is followed by plural verb "cost".

In SC2, "which" is modifying "collateral" ( again a noun)
Moreover, in SC2, there should be S-V agreement
"Declining values" should go with "are".

- Brajesh


Which is a pronoun.

Declining values for farm equipment and land, the collateral against which farmers borrow to get through the harvest season, are ...

Declining values for farm equipment and land, the collateral against (the collateral) farmers borrow to get through the harvest season, are ...

doesnt make sense to me.
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Re: Need all experts on this one [#permalink] New post 11 Aug 2007, 17:36
bmwhype2 wrote:
b14kumar wrote:
Well, you have valid doubts.

Remeber, the relative pronoun “which” should be used to refer to a noun and not an idea or an action presented in an entire clause.

So you just have to look at the noun.

In your questions, B and E are the correct choices.

In SC1, "which" is modifying "effects" (a plural noun) that is followed by plural verb "cost".

In SC2, "which" is modifying "collateral" ( again a noun)
Moreover, in SC2, there should be S-V agreement
"Declining values" should go with "are".

- Brajesh


Which is a pronoun.

Declining values for farm equipment and land, the collateral against which farmers borrow to get through the harvest season, are ...

Declining values for farm equipment and land, the collateral against (the collateral) farmers borrow to get through the harvest season, are ...

doesnt make sense to me.


alright i am retarded. figured it out.

Declining values for farm equipment and land, the collateral against which farmers borrow to get through the harvest season, are
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Re: Need all experts on this one [#permalink] New post 13 Aug 2007, 00:23
bmwhype2 wrote:
bmwhype2 wrote:
b14kumar wrote:
Well, you have valid doubts.

Remeber, the relative pronoun “which” should be used to refer to a noun and not an idea or an action presented in an entire clause.

So you just have to look at the noun.

In your questions, B and E are the correct choices.

In SC1, "which" is modifying "effects" (a plural noun) that is followed by plural verb "cost".

In SC2, "which" is modifying "collateral" ( again a noun)
Moreover, in SC2, there should be S-V agreement
"Declining values" should go with "are".

- Brajesh


Which is a pronoun.

Declining values for farm equipment and land, the collateral against which farmers borrow to get through the harvest season, are ...

Declining values for farm equipment and land, the collateral against (the collateral) farmers borrow to get through the harvest season, are ...

doesnt make sense to me.


alright i am retarded. figured it out.

Declining values for farm equipment and land, the collateral against which farmers borrow to get through the harvest season, are


Why is'nt there a "comma" before the "which" in this sentence?
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 [#permalink] New post 13 Aug 2007, 03:48
b14kumar wrote:
Well, you have valid doubts.

Remeber, the relative pronoun “which” should be used to refer to a noun and not an idea or an action presented in an entire clause.

So you just have to look at the noun.

In your questions, B and E are the correct choices.

In SC1, "which" is modifying "effects" (a plural noun) that is followed by plural verb "cost".

In SC2, "which" is modifying "collateral" ( again a noun)
Moreover, in SC2, there should be S-V agreement
"Declining values" should go with "are".

- Brajesh


Brajesh: for Q1

which should qualify the noun preceeding it correct?

then why isnt it effects and not abuse here ?

is it 'cos of of?
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Re: Need all experts on this one [#permalink] New post 13 Aug 2007, 04:52
circkit wrote:
bmwhype2 wrote:
bmwhype2 wrote:
b14kumar wrote:
Well, you have valid doubts.

Remeber, the relative pronoun “which” should be used to refer to a noun and not an idea or an action presented in an entire clause.

So you just have to look at the noun.

In your questions, B and E are the correct choices.

In SC1, "which" is modifying "effects" (a plural noun) that is followed by plural verb "cost".

In SC2, "which" is modifying "collateral" ( again a noun)
Moreover, in SC2, there should be S-V agreement
"Declining values" should go with "are".

- Brajesh


Which is a pronoun.

Declining values for farm equipment and land, the collateral against which farmers borrow to get through the harvest season, are ...

Declining values for farm equipment and land, the collateral against (the collateral) farmers borrow to get through the harvest season, are ...

doesnt make sense to me.


alright i am retarded. figured it out.

Declining values for farm equipment and land, the collateral against which farmers borrow to get through the harvest season, are


Why is'nt there a "comma" before the "which" in this sentence?


yes. in the non essential clause concept.
when you see which without a comma, there should be a preposition before it. otherwise it is incorrect.
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 [#permalink] New post 13 Aug 2007, 05:47
I know you asked experts to respond to these questions but I figured I think out loud and see if others agree with me or correct me otherwise!

In my experience ‘which’ more often than not represents the noun immediately before it and actually Manhattan SC makes such exclusive point. But in absence of such an option or other better options, we can use ‘which’ as ‘that’, meaning working in the context rather than the noun immediately before it.

In 1) I pick B because I do not have any other option which fits well, all other 4 choices seems to have grammatical errors. In ‘B’ ‘which’ is not referring to the noun(s) before it but I have no options other than B.

2) Here ‘D’ and ‘E’ are the two valid options (you can negate others because the use of ‘is’ since ‘values’ is a plural’). ‘which’ in D is referring to the effect of ‘declining values for farm equipment and lands’ not the nouns before it. This gives me enough reasons to negate it since I have better option available in E. But in absence of ‘E’ we might not have any choice but to pick D.
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 [#permalink] New post 13 Aug 2007, 07:04
asaf wrote:
2) Here ‘D’ and ‘E’ are the two valid options (you can negate others because the use of ‘is’ since ‘values’ is a plural’). ‘which’ in D is referring to the effect of ‘declining values for farm equipment and lands’ not the nouns before it. This gives me enough reasons to negate it since I have better option available in E. But in absence of ‘E’ we might not have any choice but to pick D.


which is a relative pronoun. it refers to collateral. not declining values of X.
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 [#permalink] New post 13 Aug 2007, 08:52
trivikram wrote:
b14kumar wrote:
Well, you have valid doubts.

Remeber, the relative pronoun “which” should be used to refer to a noun and not an idea or an action presented in an entire clause.

So you just have to look at the noun.

In your questions, B and E are the correct choices.

In SC1, "which" is modifying "effects" (a plural noun) that is followed by plural verb "cost".

In SC2, "which" is modifying "collateral" ( again a noun)
Moreover, in SC2, there should be S-V agreement
"Declining values" should go with "are".

- Brajesh


Brajesh: for Q1

which should qualify the noun preceeding it correct?

then why isnt it effects and not abuse here ?

is it 'cos of of?


Well, "Drug and Alcohol abuse" is singular so we need singular verb "costs".

- Brajesh
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 [#permalink] New post 13 Aug 2007, 11:07
bmwhype2 wrote:
asaf wrote:
2) Here ‘D’ and ‘E’ are the two valid options (you can negate others because the use of ‘is’ since ‘values’ is a plural’). ‘which’ in D is referring to the effect of ‘declining values for farm equipment and lands’ not the nouns before it. This gives me enough reasons to negate it since I have better option available in E. But in absence of ‘E’ we might not have any choice but to pick D.


which is a relative pronoun. it refers to collateral. not declining values of X.

Either you and I talkin apple and oranges or I must be havin really a bad day. How's that 'which' in D referring to 'collateral'?

D. Declining values for farm equipment and land,
which farmers use as collateral to borrow against to get through the harvest season, are
going to force many lenders to tighten or deny credit this spring.
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 [#permalink] New post 13 Aug 2007, 11:28
asaf wrote:
bmwhype2 wrote:
asaf wrote:
2) Here ‘D’ and ‘E’ are the two valid options (you can negate others because the use of ‘is’ since ‘values’ is a plural’). ‘which’ in D is referring to the effect of ‘declining values for farm equipment and lands’ not the nouns before it. This gives me enough reasons to negate it since I have better option available in E. But in absence of ‘E’ we might not have any choice but to pick D.


which is a relative pronoun. it refers to collateral. not declining values of X.

Either you and I talkin apple and oranges or I must be havin really a bad day. How's that 'which' in D referring to 'collateral'?

D. Declining values for farm equipment and land,
which farmers use as collateral to borrow against to get through the harvest season, are
going to force many lenders to tighten or deny credit this spring.


i was talking about E.
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 [#permalink] New post 13 Aug 2007, 11:54
computer-bot wrote:
b14kumar wrote:
Well, you have valid doubts.

Remeber, the relative pronoun “which” should be used to refer to a noun and not an idea or an action presented in an entire clause.

So you just have to look at the noun.

In your questions, B and E are the correct choices.

In SC1, "which" is modifying "effects" (a plural noun) that is followed by plural verb "cost".

In SC2, "which" is modifying "collateral" ( again a noun)
Moreover, in SC2, there should be S-V agreement
"Declining values" should go with "are".

- Brajesh


Thanks Brajesh for such a concise explanation.
Can you tell me what "the collateral" is modifying in SC2? Is it modifying" Declining values for farm equipment and land" or just "farm equipment and land ".
Also does which (as in case of SC1) always modify the noun and not the prepositional phrase?

CB




Declining values for farm equipment and land, the collateral against which farmers borrow to get through the harvest season, are going to force many lenders to tighten or deny credit this spring.

Declining values for farm equipment and land, the collateral that farmers borrow to get through the harvest season, are going to force many lenders to tighten or deny credit this spring.
  [#permalink] 13 Aug 2007, 11:54
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