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Re: General Management programs [#permalink] New post 03 Jan 2009, 09:28
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cul3s wrote:
So after you're through with the 1 year or 6 months or however long the rotational program is... are you guaranteed a position? or they can just say..."no openings, not the right fit, sorry" ?
and do we know what will our job be? or is it pretty much up in the air depends on how we do in the training time?


There is no guarantee that you will get a job. You have to earn one and people have to want you. That said its probably pretty uncommon for someone to not get an offer. Some will let you exit the program early if you find the right opportunity within the company. When you get hired it would be extremely rare to know what job you will be doing after your rotational program ends. Some people will get several offers within a company they can choose from...

Basically there is a huge variation between programs and what different people get for offers.
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Re: General Management programs [#permalink] New post 04 Jan 2009, 21:18
agold wrote:
I believe Big 4 accounting firms, Tech consulting firms, etc. are notorious for starting MBAs (typically from lower-ranked schools) a rung or two above undergrads because they have no idea how to utilize their talents.


Depending on the type of work and the hiring pattern of the group, I can confirm this to be true. Either they are all MBAs and choose to continue that pattern or MBAs are grouped in with everyone else.
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Re: General Management programs [#permalink] New post 05 Jan 2009, 14:30
Any one know the expected compensation (salary + bonus) as well as the compensation trajectory of the GM programs?
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Re: General Management programs [#permalink] New post 11 Jan 2009, 20:29
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Meh. hard to say - GM covers a LOT of industries and geography. I'd say check out the various schools' employment stats, and see if you can get a big picture. Here are some for Duke: http://www.fuqua.duke.edu/mba_recruitin ... tatistics/



fluidian wrote:
Any one know the expected compensation (salary + bonus) as well as the compensation trajectory of the GM programs?
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Re: General Management programs [#permalink] New post 12 Jan 2009, 22:02
While it's my understanding that the progression through GM is a bit less predictable/structured than that of say, IB, does anyone know a good way to jump into GM at a high technology (i.e. Silicon Valley/Microsoft) company? I know in the stickied IB thread someone was explaining how investment banking gives you a head start into business (2-3 years of IB is competitive with 7-8 years of GM?) - does this hold true for industries outside of finance, or would engineering work be considered more valuable?

On a side note: I'm a UG student right now, so I don't have much to bring to these discussions yet, but I'd like to thank you guys for all the advice - this site has been invaluable to me in researching possible majors/careers :-D . You guys are champs, for sure.
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Re: General Management programs [#permalink] New post 12 Jan 2009, 22:59
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To be honest from my discussions with alums, career center folks, and professors...the idea that MC and IB will fast track your career ahead of people who join a company straight out is kind of misleading. Many MC and IB people do well when the leave, however they really wont be true general managers. MC will end up in strategy functions, they have never implemented anything and in reality their view of business is on the strategy side not so much well rounded with operations and leadership skills. IB people depending what they do will more likely end up in a finance, M&A, treasury, or something along those lines. Their skill sets while incredible are once again not set up the same as someone who did a rotational program or even just a straight GM role. I have talked to numberous alums in fairly high positions within different companies and they say that their friends who went the other way often do get great positions but they often aren't in the fortune 100 companies that have highly developed management programs.

The advice I have gotten time and time again, is don't listen to the hype about MC and IB being something to slingshot your career. If you enter a GM program at a top company (pretty much the only type that are going to pay the 100k+ salary needed to attract top tier MBA grads), then you are going to have incredible opportunities for advancement. Those programs are set up to provide you not only a great foundation for your career but plenty of exposure to and mentorship from top level management. A lot of these companies value loyalty still, so if you come straight out of school and have that recognition then its going to help you along. So if a company you really could see yourself at for a career then definitely think hard before entering a different industry...if you do get into that company then its a good chance you will be siloed into a function based on your MC/IB experience.

GM programs arent for everyone and while there are a lot out there they are usually fairly small. GE is huge at 125ish but that still pales compared to McKinsey. There are others that are 4-10 a year and some of those even have the C-level executives do interviews for final rounds. Some industries value IB or MC experience more than others too, so find out how your target views those skills. Is it an industry that relies heavily on financing skills and would look very positively on IB or is it more operations based? I mean if you want PE or something like Real Estate then obviously IB is the route to go but if you are looking at something like a widely diversified company then they probably have a specialized program that will do you a whole lot more good.

Besides as you can see these days there are going to be times when certain skills may flood the market at which point there is very little value in them. Would you rather have skills developed during a GM rotational program and that on your resume right now or just another one of those thousands of IB'ers looking for a gig?
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Re: General Management programs [#permalink] New post 12 Jan 2009, 23:03
Plug for Kellogg's career report which I have found to be the most detailed of any around...they also have over a decades worth on the web so you can see trends if you really want to go nuts. GM programs aren't going to pay what MC is going to pay but on an hour per hour and lifestyle basis, I definitely think they are the more lucrative one. I know I would rather work on average 50 hours a week and be home most nights. Traveling occasionally is a lot more enjoyable than traveling weekly.

http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/career_employer/employment/index.htm
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Re: General Management programs [#permalink] New post 12 Jan 2009, 23:19
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good stuff river.

Haas' report is pretty good too, and surprisingly a higher % of people go into GM than other top tier schools.

http://www.haas.berkeley.edu/groups/car ... ports.html

They also have reports from 1998-2008 on there. Good reading. :)
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Re: General Management programs [#permalink] New post 13 Jan 2009, 02:54
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To be honest from my discussions with alums, career center folks, and professors...the idea that MC and IB will fast track your career ahead of people who join a company straight out is kind of misleading. Many MC and IB people do well when the leave, however they really wont be true general managers. MC will end up in strategy functions, they have never implemented anything and in reality their view of business is on the strategy side not so much well rounded with operations and leadership skills. IB people depending what they do will more likely end up in a finance, M&A, treasury, or something along those lines. Their skill sets while incredible are once again not set up the same as someone who did a rotational program or even just a straight GM role. I have talked to numberous alums in fairly high positions within different companies and they say that their friends who went the other way often do get great positions but they often aren't in the fortune 100 companies that have highly developed management programs.

The advice I have gotten time and time again, is don't listen to the hype about MC and IB being something to slingshot your career. If you enter a GM program at a top company (pretty much the only type that are going to pay the 100k+ salary needed to attract top tier MBA grads), then you are going to have incredible opportunities for advancement. Those programs are set up to provide you not only a great foundation for your career but plenty of exposure to and mentorship from top level management. A lot of these companies value loyalty still, so if you come straight out of school and have that recognition then its going to help you along. So if a company you really could see yourself at for a career then definitely think hard before entering a different industry...if you do get into that company then its a good chance you will be siloed into a function based on your MC/IB experience.

GM programs arent for everyone and while there are a lot out there they are usually fairly small. GE is huge at 125ish but that still pales compared to McKinsey. There are others that are 4-10 a year and some of those even have the C-level executives do interviews for final rounds. Some industries value IB or MC experience more than others too, so find out how your target views those skills. Is it an industry that relies heavily on financing skills and would look very positively on IB or is it more operations based? I mean if you want PE or something like Real Estate then obviously IB is the route to go but if you are looking at something like a widely diversified company then they probably have a specialized program that will do you a whole lot more good.

Besides as you can see these days there are going to be times when certain skills may flood the market at which point there is very little value in them. Would you rather have skills developed during a GM rotational program and that on your resume right now or just another one of those thousands of IB'ers looking for a gig?


I am not exaggerating as I say this is one of the best posts ever to appear on GMATClub. Everyone should hang it in his room!
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Re: General Management programs [#permalink] New post 13 Jan 2009, 07:25
"Steve Canale is the manager of Recruiting & Staffing Services at General Electric (GE ). GE hires 150 to 200 MBAs globally each year, a relatively small number for a company that's located in about 100 countries and employs more than 320,000 people. However, Canale, who works out of corporate headquarters in Fairfield, Conn., notes that a large chunk of MBAs wind up at GE after gaining experience at a consulting firm. "

From Businessweek.Com
http://www.businessweek.com/bschools/co ... 8_4892.htm


So at least with the GE leadership program, it does seem to appear to be a viable exit strategy.
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Re: General Management programs [#permalink] New post 13 Jan 2009, 09:25
riverripper wrote:
The advice I have gotten time and time again, is don't listen to the hype about MC and IB being something to slingshot your career. If you enter a GM program at a top company (pretty much the only type that are going to pay the 100k+ salary needed to attract top tier MBA grads), then you are going to have incredible opportunities for advancement.


Can you elaborate on this a bit more? Where could you expect to be 5, 10, 15 years out? Both compensation and responsibility wise?
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Re: General Management programs [#permalink] New post 13 Jan 2009, 14:30
Thank you for the incredibly insightful post, river. +1 for sure.

When you're talking about strategy positions opposed to "straight GM," how far do the two differentiate? Is strategy referring to corporate strategies (i.e. mergers, acquisitions) strictly, whereas GM would be more directly, or solely, involved with product development/production?

I guess I'll go do more research on some of the rotational development programs, as I totally I agree that the quality of life seems far better in GM than Finance. As much as I've enjoyed the few econ/finance classes (I know, not much to measure with) I've taken, I don't think it'd be wise to give up the social interaction and other life factors that you have to compromise by going into those huge NY firms.
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Re: General Management programs [#permalink] New post 13 Jan 2009, 14:35
kryzak wrote:
good stuff river.

Haas' report is pretty good too, and surprisingly a higher % of people go into GM than other top tier schools.

http://www.haas.berkeley.edu/groups/car ... ports.html

They also have reports from 1998-2008 on there. Good reading. :)



Yeah, that's quite interesting. I know that the four of my cousins who went to Berkeley were all recruited straight into Silicon Valley companies like eBay; that's probably the reasoning for the relatively high number of GM jobs at Haas.
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Re: General Management programs [#permalink] New post 13 Jan 2009, 17:24
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Terp, I kind of read that GE quote to mean that many of the people who join the rotational program coming out of MBA had consulting backgrounds. Which makes a lot of sense, I know a fair amount of people here who come from consulting and want to transition into a GM program. Honestly, GE is not extremely high up on a lot of GM people's list any more. Their brand isnt what it was 20 years ago, its still strong but other companies are more popular these days with top MBAs. GE has diluted their brand by hiring heavily from lower ranked schools, how many top 5 MBA's want to be 1 of 150 and of those 150 many come from programs well outside the top 20. GE also pays below market compared to other programs, so if you take 120k of debt on to go to school that 20k difference can be a pretty big difference maker when decision time comes around. I can see GE being a popular place for a lot of experienced folks like MC. I talked to an alum who is a SVP at GE and came from a major energy company. Any company with 300k+ employees will have to hire high up managers.

One telling thing in my opinion about GE is their retention of employees that get hired into their ECLP is pretty crappy compared to other companies programs. I went through old career reports here and checked to see where alums are in their careers now and GE had probably the worst rate...it seems people use them for a stamp much like MC firms and IBing. So there have to be plenty of openings for talent if everyone is leaving.

However, other companies have incredibly high retention. Chevron is over 90% for their program during the last 10 years still are with them, which is amazing considering that MBA's have a reputation of switching jobs often. To keep people they obviously are treating them well, advancing them, and compensating them.



Agold, as to timelines it really varies...also different companies use different titles...its not like IB or MC which have pretty standard job titles. You can make VP at some companies within 5 to 7 years but at others where there are far fewer VP's, and those VP jobs are much higher levels it could take 10-15 or even more. It really depends on the titles that companies like to use. Salary wise it once again really varies. Thats like asking what is the salary for a banker going to be in 2015...its impossible to answer these days. Honestly if you are super concerned about money then GM isnt for you. People who are going for GM usually are more focused on having overall career satisfaction and excellent work/life balance. My opinion if I am 40 and making 200k a year thats great and will give me a great lifestyle. Personally I would rather be working less than 50 hours a week on average and making good but not amaing money than making seven figures and 80+ hours a week...but hey thats just me and my desires.
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Re: General Management programs [#permalink] New post 13 Jan 2009, 19:50
Hey River - a few greats post.

I have a few questions - hopefully you can provide some insight.

1. You mentioned that the GE program isn't the most attractive these days - what do you consider the more attractive and selective GM programs?

2. What are the expected salaries in these programs - in year 1, as well as 5 years out? I know you mentioned that salaries (and bonus) vary, but perhaps you know the typical numbers for the GE program and 1 or 2 other programs - any info would be more than appreciated

Thanks!
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Re: General Management programs [#permalink] New post 13 Jan 2009, 21:25
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fluidian wrote:
Hey River - a few greats post.

I have a few questions - hopefully you can provide some insight.

1. You mentioned that the GE program isn't the most attractive these days - what do you consider the more attractive and selective GM programs?

2. What are the expected salaries in these programs - in year 1, as well as 5 years out? I know you mentioned that salaries (and bonus) vary, but perhaps you know the typical numbers for the GE program and 1 or 2 other programs - any info would be more than appreciated

Thanks!


1) depends on industry. Really depends on your personal goals and what type of industry you want to be in. What are you specifically looking for? Widely diversified manufacturing, energy, travel/leisure,high tech, bio/pharma...there are so many places and what might be amazing to me could be horrible for you.

2) companies kind of have to pay market value. Look at career reports and its probably similar to what you see. GE pays <100k which is great for some schools they recruit at but if someone else is offering you 20k more its tough. Usually if you do a rotational you will get a smallish bump after the first year (typical yearly raise 5-10% probably)...but when you rotate out into a position you can get a pretty good bump. 5 years out its hard to say, you can be a star in GM and move up fast and double your pay easily within 5 years or you could take the longer run by not having either the luck or the success and just get your 5-10% a year raise.

Honestly though if you guys are super concerned about making lots of money then GM isnt going to be it. You will make a nice living but chances are you wont be able to compete with what a MC or IB makes. However, you will sleep in your own bed every night, you will be home for dinner most of the time, you will make your kids soccer game on the weekend...
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Re: General Management programs [#permalink] New post 14 Jan 2009, 06:55
riverripper,

I assume you have spoken to many people in GM. What are the average hours that they work? There is a lot of talk on this forum about 40-50 hour weeks, but I really find that hard to believe. The upper-level managers that I came into contact at my previous “Fortune 10” company probably averaged 60 hours per week (M-F) and did some work from home (evenings and weekends). However, I think most of that was lower-level stuff like responding to emails, etc.
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Re: General Management programs [#permalink] New post 14 Jan 2009, 07:13
hours are going to depend on the company: I spoke with several people in Citi's global consumer general management program, and they were putting in 12 hours a day, in the office. Who knows what they did at home.

I recruited with a couple of others where it looked more like 8 hours in the office usually, with some peak periods requiring more. At these places, it seemed like some people would also fire up the laptop for a couple of hours at home to do stuff like email or read reports. The stars at the company tended to work more, but the people who stuck more to the 40-50 range still did fine in their careers.
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Re: General Management programs [#permalink] New post 14 Jan 2009, 07:55
I will second what aaudetat said, hours can greatly vary between industry, company, and positions. Also they can vary depending on the time...you could be working 40 hours a week for a few months and then 60 hours a week for a while if the work load dictates it. I know some companies are more demanding than others since they run leaner work forces, so you will work more because there aren't as many people to do all the work. If 45 hour weeks are your goal you can definitely find those companies.
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Re: General Management programs [#permalink] New post 15 Jan 2009, 10:07
To emphasise what RR was saying about loyalty. Look at the Fortunr 500 companies,
1) USA - Aprox 150 companies
2) Japan - 64 companies

Considering that Japan has 64 companies is thr fortune 500, how many of them recruit MBA's for general Management positions and how many of them develop them in-house and reward loyalty? In other words, look at the number of Japanese companies recruiting on campus at MBA level.. Not many is there?
Re: General Management programs   [#permalink] 15 Jan 2009, 10:07
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