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Re: 2008 Zero admits - Where are they now ?? [#permalink]
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Great initiative bsd, and sorry for not contributing earlier. I saw Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares - Revisited last night on TV (ok!, I was bored), so I suddenly remembered this post and thought I should contribute. I feel that my applications in '08 were like a tired looking crusty sandwich. This is my story of how I got voted in and thankfully kicked out of the Zero Admits Club.

Last Year - My GMAT attempat '#1 (Jan'08) left me exhausted with a score of 690. I thought I'd apply for R3 Cambridge which was only 4 weeks after my GMAT. This was a very bad idea in hindsight, especially because I wrote that app entirely from my hotel room when I was on an overseas assignment.
Result #1 (R3 '08 intake) -> Ding without interview.
Lesson #1: never apply when you are not ready.

This year - 3 Weeks after I got dinged from Cambridge, I decided to retake the GMAT and after 6 further weeks of prep i got a 710. I felt I never achieved my potential in the GMAT (don't we all feel the same? MSDAY?), but I decided to apply to 3 schools in R1. Cambridge, LBS and Oxford.

Result #2 (R1a '09 intake): Waitlisted w/o interview at Cambridge.
Lesson #2: The same school that dinged me in R3 only a few months ago had waitListed me. This meant that I had a much better application. However when I revisited my application, I didn't like how my goals portrayed me. They were too generic and also too "main stream". It seemed like I hadn't thought much about why i wanted an MBA. I also failed to connect the dots and link my goals to my background

Result #3 R1 '09 intake): Dinged without interview from LBS. This ding really hurt.
Lesson #3: My essays upon reflection showed me in very fragmented pieces. I portrayed myself as a guy who had A,B,C,D and did X,Y,Z. Too many arrows in my armory didn't allow me to really show off my skills. Instead I should have focused on 1 or 2 traits and drive home who I really am. Also I didn't sell myself enough.

Due to some personal family related circumstances I put back my Oxford app to R2. I was again emotionally exhausted and my Oxford app was not ready. I applied what I had learned from lesson #1.

I applied to Oxford in R2 with a much better app. The rest as they say is history.

The things that helped me in my Oxford app.

1) Be in a happy state of mind. - It may sound silly, but my Oxford app was written in easily the most relaxing state of mind. My essay reviewers all complained that I wasn't working hard enough. I even took a 2 weeks vacation to Morocco a month before the due date. I only worked on my essays when I was feeling good about myself.

2) Don't undersell yourself - Feeling good about yourself means it's easier to write good stuff about yourself. It's that simple. My thoughts were better connected and there was an underlying positive vibe in my Oxford application and this continued at my interview.

3) Introspection coupled with ding analysis - My Oxford essay was based on deep introspection. After 3-4 months of just thinking about MBA application meant that I really knew my stories and I was able to connect those dots together in telling my story to the adcom. I also connected with several current and past students of LBS and sent them my essays for disection. This "ding-analysis" really helped as it pointed out the flaws in my essays.

4) Don't be scared to ask for help. I asked a number of people for help. These people had gone through the journey themselves and were largely happy to comment on my work.



For those with Zero admits this year, don't worry, many of us have been where you are now. We have grown-up through the app-process and are definitely better for it. The MBA application process does teach you a thing or two that you can use in everyday life, whether in a work or non-work context.

Goodluck,

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Re: 2008 Zero admits revisited [#permalink]
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I took on some additional project management tasks at work in addition to other tasks that would normally fall under the domain of program management. Same with XC - started working with a different org that was different from my past volunteering activities. It might seem contrived to do so, but I felt that I couldn't hurt my chances by doing something new. Basically, I had to convey that I wasn't a geek!

Btw, I had feedback sessions with both Tuck and Ross. While Tuck was helpful, the feedback from Ross was generic and not more than 10 mins. Something to the effect of, "Well, you were good enough to be on the waitlist, but we had too many similar applicants...Sorry". With 5 weeks until the next R1 deadline, the only suggestion I could get was that if I felt it necessary, I should re-take the GMAT. Needless to say, with 6 apps in R1, I barely had time to write essays. :roll:

Kudos or not, this thread is definitely good karma! Just received a tidy scholarship from Anderson earlier today.
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Re: 2008 Zero admits revisited [#permalink]
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I never posted on the 2008 thread because I did have an admit but it wasn't to the program I really wanted. I applied to 6 schools in 2008 and got 3 interview invites resulting in 1 admit, 1 waitlist (7 months) and 4 dings.

This year, I applied to 6 schools, all in Round 1. I was admitted to 3 (Duke, UCLA, Cornell AMBA) and got dinged at the rest(WL -> ding at Ross).

I probably had as many strikes that an applicant could have to make his application tougher - Indian, Engineer, older candidate etc., so I will say this, do your research and target your schools wisely.
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Re: 2008 Zero admits revisited [#permalink]
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bsd_lover wrote:
Thanks for responding sv - what were the biggest changes that you made to your application this year in terms of your essays ?


bsd,

Short answer - not a whole lot but here's the long-winded story of my applications.

My biggest change from last year was the selection of schools. I had some personal limitations and decided to apply to only mid-west and north-east schools, Darden being the lone exception. I got interview invites from both Cornell, Chicago and Darden besides self-initiated ones at Kellogg and Tuck. At Cornell, I had applied for the 2-year MBA program but was ultimately offered AMBA (reasons: advanced degree, goals that didn't require an internship). Also, Ross waitlisted me without interview. My biggest takeaway - you need something to differentiate yourself. You probably know that already :)

This year, I applied to Anderson, Duke and Haas besides reapplying to Cornell, Tuck and Ross. In terms of essays, Anderson was probably the most personal ones I had written. Between the 6 applications last year, I probably wrote 12-15 different essays, but I had to start all over for Anderson. Same goes for Duke's "Leader of consequence" essay. Looking back, I think reading Montauk and a few other books had unconsciously molded my essays to the point where they turned out to be detached not reflecting what I really wanted to say. I didn't worry about sounding as polished this time. I also was fortunate to connect with an old college-mate who was a sounding board for the personal essays (Thanks to Yahoo for free transatlantic calls).

For both Tuck and Ross, I completely rewrote many essays along with reapplicant ones. I thought that my Tuck ones were the best of the lot this year, especially the goals essay. Result: Ding. At Ross, I was inexplicably waitlisted after R1 and then dinged in R2. In short, the lessons I learnt from last season helped with the new schools but not the old ones.

-SV
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Re: 2008 Zero admits - Where are they now ?? [#permalink]
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If you were to meet with an Alumni, what would you try to find out?
I've listed a few :

* which schools did he/she apply to. why did he/she choose X over Y,Z etc.?
* what the biggest take away?
* something unique about school X?
* any classes or professors which he/she liked?
* what clubs were he/she in?
* favourite subject & why?
* basic profile - prior to MBA? (not sure if this is required but good to know)

Your views?
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Re: 2008 Zero admits revisited [#permalink]
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This is a great initiative bsd, kudos!
I've been feeling terrible lately with zero admits- 6 schools applied (all round 2), 4 interviews, 2 WLs, 0 admits :-(
I don't know if I should apply again next year or wait another year. Can't imagine going through the process again, especially getting recos and 4+ essays per school! It will be great if people like me can hear from some of the reapplicants in here, a great confidence booster. :-)
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Re: 2008 Zero admits revisited [#permalink]
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Thats some superb insight sv - and future applicants will find this advise incredibly useful.

I find it interesting that you say that books such as Montauk actually took you away from what you were trying to say and kept you detached (I take it as a synonym to "impersonal"). This is identical to my own experience from last year - when my essays were too impersonal.

Another question. Did you actually change your goals in your reapplication (or new) essays ? Or did you just rewrite the essays using the same goals just writing more persuasively ?

svrider wrote:
Looking back, I think reading Montauk and a few other books had unconsciously molded my essays to the point where they turned out to be detached not reflecting what I really wanted to say. I didn't worry about sounding as polished this time. I also was fortunate to connect with an old college-mate who was a sounding board for the personal essays (Thanks to Yahoo for free transatlantic calls).

For both Tuck and Ross, I completely rewrote many essays along with reapplicant ones. I thought that my Tuck ones were the best of the lot this year, especially the goals essay. Result: Ding. At Ross, I was inexplicably waitlisted after R1 and then dinged in R2. In short, the lessons I learnt from last season helped with the new schools but not the old ones.

-SV
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Re: 2008 Zero admits revisited [#permalink]
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bsd_lover wrote:
Thats some superb insight sv - and future applicants will find this advise incredibly useful.

I find it interesting that you say that books such as Montauk actually took you away from what you were trying to say and kept you detached (I take it as a synonym to "impersonal"). This is identical to my own experience from last year - when my essays were too impersonal.

Another question. Did you actually change your goals in your reapplication (or new) essays ? Or did you just rewrite the essays using the same goals just writing more persuasively ?



I made the cardinal sin of writing what I thought the adcom wanted to hear. My goals were the same as was my career progress (obviously) and my motivation to pursue an MBA. If anything, I decided to not narrow down my specific LT goals but rather talk about the path where I was headed. In my reapplicant essays, I talked about how I had diversified my skill-set and taken some small steps towards my goals. This especially matters if you have worked too long in one company/functional area as I did.
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Re: 2008 Zero admits - Where are they now ?? [#permalink]
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This is a great idea bsd. It's good to see everyone from last year do well and get into some great schools in a very competitive year.

I'll put a detailed debrief on here in the next day or 2.

But, to anyone who's discouraged about getting dinged/WLed this year, I hope you take some time and re-evaluate your needs for an MBA. I know how many of you may feel that you can't go through another application season again, but if you feel an MBA is necessary for you, you should definitely apply again. In fact, if I hadn't learnt a lot of the stuff I did last year, I am pretty sure I wouldn't have been accepted to Kellogg. So, you will definitely be much better placed next year than you were this year. Good luck!
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Also, I encourage all reapplicants to read Rhyme's post to understand what I said about getting additional responsibilities at work and in ECs:

calling-chicago-gsb-applicants-48955-2660.html#p494426
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Re: 2008 Zero admits - Where are they now ?? [#permalink]
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Brilliant work yellowjacket !!!! +1

pm4553 - that is a good question. What exactly is "fit" and how does one define and determine it (esp without even visiting the school)? You can gather a little from the raw student body numbers - average age / WE / incoming industries / incoming nationalities should give an indication of the folks' basic profile. You may also catch up with alumni in your home location. Usually alums are more than happy to have a chat and describe their school in good detail and I've found their insights the most valuable; they've been there and done that. Alums also have the added advantage of being from your country so knowing the cultural differences that they might have experienced at the program (and at the target school's country)

But frankly, because most top schools tend to have incredibly diverse student bodies, chances are that you will end up meeting "your type" of people at most of these schools. So don't ignore researching your aims fit before researching your personality fit.

pm4553 wrote:
Thanks yellowjacket! for sharing your story.

In general, everybody talks about fit, which is very important IMHO. However, what about international student who cannot travel (various constraints) to understand if X school is a fit? Reaching out, research etc can be done using the schools website, most of the information is available.

I have a big list of schools, which I'd like to apply. I'd like to narrow down the schools, but is there a way I can work on the "fit"? The raw data is available, however, I feel its not enough.
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I think there are other factors that you can use to filter your list down before assessing fit. I think first of all you should narrow down your list of schools based on career goals and how goals tie in with each school. The first line of attack is definitely websites and your own personal network. Talk to people you know in your target industry to understand how your list of schools is percieved in the eyes of recruiters. After that, reach out to people in specific clubs you are/would be interested in (preferably both career and activities). Once you go to school, chances are they will probably be the sort of people you will be interacting with the most. In addition to that, alumni are also a very valuable resource about the school. Personally, I preferred talking to curret students over alums since current students know more about the current situation in each school than someone who graduated 5 years ago. I would definitely encourage you to talk to more young alumni than people who graduated a while back. Lastly, I'm not sure where you're located, but you should definitely try to go to as many information sessions for colleges that you are interested in. While most of it is a PR exercise, you get a chance to meet a large number of alums and chances are that some of them are probably in your target industry so you'll get a more targeted perspective from them.



pm4553 wrote:
Thanks yellowjacket! for sharing your story.

In general, everybody talks about fit, which is very important IMHO. However, what about international student who cannot travel (various constraints) to understand if X school is a fit? Reaching out, research etc can be done using the schools website, most of the information is available.

I have a big list of schools, which I'd like to apply. I'd like to narrow down the schools, but is there a way I can work on the "fit"? The raw data is available, however, I feel its not enough.
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Re: 2008 Zero admits - Where are they now ?? [#permalink]
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I always try to find out the alum's post MBA career trajectory to get me a sense of how the MBA might have helped this person (subconsciously reassuring me that this school is right for me :) ). Of course that means that I do try to find the basic profile prior to the MBA as well. Other things you might want to consider are :
- How long did it take you (and others that you know) to pay off the loan
- How did you find your post MBA job
- What are some interesting career switches (in industry xyz) that you witnessed

Of course the type of questions you ask would depend on the type of rapport you establish with the alum.

Good luck.

pm4553 wrote:
If you were to meet with an Alumni, what would you try to find out?
I've listed a few :

* which schools did he/she apply to. why did he/she choose X over Y,Z etc.?
* what the biggest take away?
* something unique about school X?
* any classes or professors which he/she liked?
* what clubs were he/she in?
* favourite subject & why?
* basic profile - prior to MBA? (not sure if this is required but good to know)

Your views?
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Re: 2008 Zero admits revisited [#permalink]
This is a great idea for a thread. Give a boost of confidence for this years zero admits. The list of where some of last years 0-admits got in is pretty impressive.
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Re: 2008 Zero admits revisited [#permalink]
Thanks for responding sv - what were the biggest changes that you made to your application this year in terms of your essays ?

svrider wrote:
I never posted on the 2008 thread because I did have an admit but it wasn't to the program I really wanted. I applied to 6 schools in 2008 and got 3 interview invites resulting in 1 admit, 1 waitlist (7 months) and 4 dings.

This year, I applied to 6 schools, all in Round 1. I was admitted to 3 (Duke, UCLA, Cornell AMBA) and got dinged at the rest(WL -> ding at Ross).

I probably had as many strikes that an applicant could have to make his application tougher - Indian, Engineer, older candidate etc., so I will say this, do your research and target your schools wisely.
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Re: 2008 Zero admits revisited [#permalink]
svrider wrote:

In my reapplicant essays, I talked about how I had diversified my skill-set and taken some small steps towards my goals. This especially matters if you have worked too long in one company/functional area as I did.


What did you do to diversify your skill set?
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Re: 2008 Zero admits revisited [#permalink]
Thats brilliant sv - you deserve all the kudos and the scholarship $$ that you get.

Still waiting for others to share their experiences.


svrider wrote:
I took on some additional project management tasks at work in addition to other tasks that would normally fall under the domain of program management. Same with XC - started working with a different org that was different from my past volunteering activities. It might seem contrived to do so, but I felt that I couldn't hurt my chances by doing something new. Basically, I had to convey that I wasn't a geek!

Btw, I had feedback sessions with both Tuck and Ross. While Tuck was helpful, the feedback from Ross was generic and not more than 10 mins. Something to the effect of, "Well, you were good enough to be on the waitlist, but we had too many similar applicants...Sorry". With 5 weeks until the next R1 deadline, the only suggestion I could get was that if I felt it necessary, I should re-take the GMAT. Needless to say, with 6 apps in R1, I barely had time to write essays. :roll:

Kudos or not, this thread is definitely good karma! Just received a tidy scholarship from Anderson earlier today.
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