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riverripper
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[#permalink] New post   21 Nov 2007, 07:37
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I think of all the international students I have met during tours only a few (vast MINORITY) were difficult to understand. Part of the problem was they stick out like a sore thumb and you can't help but notice them. They are like the jerk during the admissions events that you cant help but just roll your eyes at because of how they come across. Everyone notices that one person and everyone has the same opinion.

So if you sit in on a class where all but one of the international students has perfect command of the english language then that one who doesn't, as soon as they open their mouth everyone's attention fixates on them.

While I do agree that their can be a form of prejudice on people, it goes beyond ethnicity. Someone who doesn't dress well immediately will be looked at as less intelligent and successful than a person in a Zegna suit.

I don't agree that if two people talking the exact same way go into a room the person who isn't anglo will immediately be thought of as harder to understand. I have a lot of friends who are asian and were born and raised here, and you can not honestly tell me if they went into a room someone would think they have a hard time understanding them. I met a fellow poster off this board who is Indian but born and raised here, I would never fathom someone have a hardtime understanding him. I think the difficulty comes from combining the two accents. An Indian speaking the Queen's English will be easier to understand in England then in the US because its what you hear a lot. Remember people have different degree of accents and the thicker it is the harder it understands. I work with a guy who grew up Kentucky and my god he is quiet possibly the hardest person to understand I have ever talked to.

I know more French Canadians and Latin Americans than Indians or Chinese, since I am very used to those two accents I never have a problem. Not to single out Indians because I have met so many during this process who I honestly feel speak completely perfect english and I have absolutely no problem understanding.

I think this thread is probably making our International friends upset because they may feel that we are talking about them or negatively of foreigners. Personally I am hoping that no one takes anything I say the wrong way, I am trying not to generalize. As Lepium said those who are difficult to understand make up maybe a few students a year in a program . The issue is that those are the memorable people because they are so unusual.
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[#permalink] New post   21 Nov 2007, 08:22
riverripper wrote:
I think this thread is probably making our International friends upset because they may feel that we are talking about them or negatively of foreigners. Personally I am hoping that no one takes anything I say the wrong way, I am trying not to generalize.


I was born and grew up in India and have been in U.S. for about 5 years now. I think what you are saying is right and even if I spoke horrible english(which I probably do - Indian accent + few years spent in Southern U.S.), I would not be offended because things don't improve without correct feedback.
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[#permalink] New post   Updated on: 21 Nov 2007, 09:47
Where are we heading?

Issue is about INTERNATIONAL STUDENTS not getting enough recruiting options at certain schools

Quote:
At [UNC] Kenan-Flagler, for instance, only about 40% of the recruiters will meet with foreign nationals.


I was hoping that current students(International) would post their experience about the recruiting options available to them...

Originally posted by Ozmba on 21 Nov 2007, 09:38.
Last edited by Ozmba on 21 Nov 2007, 09:47, edited 1 time in total.
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[#permalink] New post   Updated on: 21 Nov 2007, 10:49
Ozmba2006 wrote:
Where are we heading?

Issue is about INTERNATIONAL STUDENTS not getting enough recruiting options at certain schools

Quote:
At [UNC] Kenan-Flagler, for instance, only about 40% of the recruiters will meet with foreign nationals.


I hoped current students(International) would post their experience about the recruiting options available to them...


I have been in U.S. for 5 years and tried changing jobs couple of times. Though not MBA, stiil i have got clear mails from HR like following (real mail excerpt - copy paste):

"Thanks for applying and for the quick reply. Your skill set and experienced matched what we are looking for, and you passed the prescreening with perfect scores, except we can not hire anybody that requires sponsorship at this time."

?$#>%^?&>?????????

It has happened to me more than 5 times. Go figure.

BTW, this is from a company that is in top 25 of Fortune 500.

Originally posted by hbs.aspirant on 21 Nov 2007, 09:46.
Last edited by hbs.aspirant on 21 Nov 2007, 10:49, edited 1 time in total.
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gmatclb
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[#permalink] New post   21 Nov 2007, 09:49
Good that they're honest.

Usually, they don't bother responding... or say that they are going in another direction.
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[#permalink] New post   21 Nov 2007, 14:07
I'm hearing that due to the visa issues, fewer companies are interested in takling to int'l students. While we have the same number of companies on campus (if not more), fewer of them are willing to sponsor. This came from career services.
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[#permalink] New post   21 Nov 2007, 16:00
I just talked to a fellow international first year... she's saying she's concerned that her backup plan of corporate strategy may not be a good backup -- everywhere she goes, they wont hire internationals. She says its not a problem at all with consulting, but with industry positions, it seems to be. Not sure how prevalent it is, but she indicated the last two firms she spoke to wouldn't hire her. Supposedly someone in career svcs told her to just apply anyway. I guess the theory is that if they want you badly enough, they'll figure it out... Though I must admit I'm somewhat baffled by their suggestion.
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[#permalink] New post   21 Nov 2007, 19:50
rhyme wrote:
She says its not a problem at all with consulting


Phew! Thank God for at least that.
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[#permalink] New post   21 Nov 2007, 23:33
Around here, about 85% of jobs are open to internationals (at least for the summer).

L.
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[#permalink] New post   24 Nov 2007, 16:10
KingKREEP wrote:
rhyme wrote:
She says its not a problem at all with consulting


Phew! Thank God for at least that.


I hear it's also fine with i-banking.
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[#permalink] New post   04 Dec 2007, 07:40
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I was hoping that current students(International) would post their experience about the recruiting options available to them...


My thoughts as an international:

(1) Be willing to take the 1-year OPT first, and worry about the H1 later. Many of my friends spent their entire OPT trying to secure a H1 and ended up with no work experience and many rejection letters. The government gives you one year without restriction to work, take full advantage of it.

(2) I would not rely on Career Services, no matter what their placement record is. They are not a crutch. There is no substitute for hustling on your own.

(3) Have a very clear career goal. Not just marketing -- what industry? what function? Not just finance -- banking? corp fin? Start networking early, meet as many alumni as you can, build relationships in the business community, join associations and clubs. Helps if you to go to a school in a metropolitan area (Boston, Atlanta, Los Angeles, Chicago) so you can knock on doors if you have to. For the socially inept (such as myself), I recommend the Vault Guide to Schmoozing.

(4) Use headhunters & recruiting agencies. The more people you have looking for a job for you, the better. At least they give you interviews and keep your record on file -- how many American firms would do that? ;-)

(5) In my experience the size of the firm does not matter, Fortune 500 or local small business. What matters is the willingness of key decision makers (be it HR or Senior Management) to champion your cause and take your case to an immigration attorney. This is where I feel the internship is CRUCIAL, it gives you the opportunity to prove you're worth the $5k or so to sponsor your visa.

(6) Do whatever it takes to improve your communication skills. Relying on being an "international" is probably more hype than substance. Employers think: "If I can hire an American as competent as you in this job -- AND in addition have no problems with culture or language, then why should I hire you?" If you're not a native speaker, you really need to go above and beyond to demonstrate a mastery of the language -- otherwise you're just giving an excuse for employers to pass over you. Whether its business writing, watching movies, or taking accent reduction classes, stop rationalizing and just do it!

(7) Finally, leave about 20% space in your mind to consider International options. Many American companies are looking to establish outposts in your country -- don't rule out the possibility of helping them spearhead their expansion efforts. You might even get a better salary for relocating.
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[#permalink] New post   04 Dec 2007, 08:28
loom wrote:
(5) In my experience the size of the firm does not matter, Fortune 500 or local small business. What matters is the willingness of key decision makers (be it HR or Senior Management) to champion your cause and take your case to an immigration attorney.


This point I disagree with. Now I am not an international applicant, but my family does own a small business. I guess it depends how small you mean. If you mean small like 1000 employees, perhaps. True small businesses, however, are going to shy away from hiring international employees because they don't have any experience with the visa process. The process will be intimidating to them, and they won't want to go through the hassle. Of course there are always exceptions, probably especially in the high tech arena, but in general I feel that bigger businesses will be more willing to hire international applicants.
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[#permalink] New post   04 Dec 2007, 08:35
Loom

About point 1

Quote:
(1) Be willing to take the 1-year OPT first, and worry about the H1 later. Many of my friends spent their entire OPT trying to secure a H1 and ended up with no work experience and many rejection letters. The government gives you one year without restriction to work, take full advantage of it.


This may still be an issue because many companies are unwilling to hire someone they know can only stay in the US for a year.

I agree about small companies though. I work in IT and I was the 7th person to join my company. They still agreed to invest in the immigration process.
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[#permalink] New post   04 Dec 2007, 09:37
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bherronp:
This point I disagree with. Now I am not an international applicant, but my family does own a small business. I guess it depends how small you mean. If you mean small like 1000 employees, perhaps. True small businesses, however, are going to shy away from hiring international employees because they don't have any experience with the visa process. The process will be intimidating to them, and they won't want to go through the hassle. Of course there are always exceptions, probably especially in the high tech arena, but in general I feel that bigger businesses will be more willing to hire international applicants.

In my experience that hasn't been the case: On one hand, the sponsorship process may be intimidating to a small firm with limited financial resources, but on the other, the bureaucracy, red-tape, and mulitple layers of decision making in a big company present an equally formidable challenge. Consider the following examples:

1. I have a Japanese friend who was sponsored this past April by an import-export marketing company in Los Angeles of 10 employees. (btw she has no MBA, and speaks terrible English).

2. Last year, I interned at a local company of 25 employees and the CEO offered to sponsor my visa (I declined the offer eventually). They were in the fitness business.

3. Now, I work for a finance company of 2,000 employees with $1 billion of assets under management, and HR has told me to my face that hiring me, a foreigner, would present a "liability" to them. I actually find it kinda ironic. lol

-----------------

To make things even more complex:

** Of the 65,000 H1 Visas provided by the US govt for 2007, there were 120,000 applications.

** Due to the sheer volume of applications (many from overseas tech firms), the govt decided to feed all applications into a computer to be randomly selected. This is in contrast to previous years, where immigration officers actually read and evaluated each application on a case-by-case basis.

** What does this mean? In essence, it doesn't matter if you have a Berkeley or Ball State MBA, it doesn't matter if its United Technologies or Uncle Bob's Consulting Shop (ok I'm generalizing a little). The main objective was to find SOMEONE willing to pay 5 grand to undertake the legal process. Even then, your chances for 2007 were essentially determined by a computer, giving you a 65,000/120,000 = ~50% chance of success.

---------------
Quote:
hsampath: This may still be an issue because many companies are unwilling to hire someone they know can only stay in the US for a year.

hsampath: True. I found my current position through my staffing agency. They handle the administration on my paperwork, which helps significantly. They act as an intermediary between myself and HR. Essentially, I am on a one-year assignment, in other words, a full-time temp. I consider myself very fortunate because 90% of the int'ls in my graduating class went back to their home countries with nothing.
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[#permalink] New post   04 Dec 2007, 13:56
rhyme wrote:
Instead of saying "The firm's strategies positively impacted consumer demand", classic Brazilian guy's attempt would read something like: "The firm that had the strategies that change the market would have to have a strategy that made the demand to go up by a little if the strategy was OK but a lot if the strategy was good, so and we saw that the strategy is maybe a bit better than GOOD so then people need more things more."

(If I sound irritated... its cause I am ... I was up until 2am cleaning up Brazilian guy's work)


And here is the fundamental question. How the hell he got into GSB at the fist place? Diversity, dirversity, diversity!!

Sitting in Kellogg’s main lobby while waiting for one of its admissions associates, my mind was desperately busy in devising strategies that could potentially convince her to take me off the 3rd round waitlist! In comes a new Asian student. He walks to the Kellogg’s lobby attendant and asks her about the office of the financial aid. He has to repeat his question three times before the attendant could understand him. She replies back but now the student is having hard time in understanding her. Finally she has to speak really slowly so that he can understand it. I am not making it up this story. This is exactly what happened. The student looked very polished (the way he was dressed up) but his verbal skills were almost non-existent. And I just kept on thinking that how did he write all those essays and how did he convey his message to the interviewer during Kellogg’s interview? But then I thought that he might be one of the brightest upcoming professionals in Japan and one should not deny him an admission to Kellogg because of his poor English skills? But such is you mind, it keeps throwing stupid questions at you! What about GMAT verbal? How did he comprehend those dreaded paragraphs? And what about AWA score? But at that point I said to myself “you are nothing but a jealous guy who got WLed at Kellogg whereas he is already IN contributing to Kellogg's diversity”….
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[#permalink] New post   04 Dec 2007, 14:15
haddy74 wrote:
rhyme wrote:
Instead of saying "The firm's strategies positively impacted consumer demand", classic Brazilian guy's attempt would read something like: "The firm that had the strategies that change the market would have to have a strategy that made the demand to go up by a little if the strategy was OK but a lot if the strategy was good, so and we saw that the strategy is maybe a bit better than GOOD so then people need more things more."

(If I sound irritated... its cause I am ... I was up until 2am cleaning up Brazilian guy's work)


And here is the fundamental question. How the hell he got into GSB at the fist place? Diversity, dirversity, diversity!!

Sitting in Kellogg’s main lobby while waiting for one of its admissions associates, my mind was desperately busy in devising strategies that could potentially convince her to take me off the 3rd round waitlist! In comes a new Asian student. He walks to the Kellogg’s lobby attendant and asks her about the office of the financial aid. He has to repeat his question three times before the attendant could understand him. She replies back but now the student is having hard time in understanding her. Finally she has to speak really slowly so that he can understand it. I am not making it up this story. This is exactly what happened. The student looked very polished (the way he was dressed up) but his verbal skills were almost non-existent. And I just kept on thinking that how did he write all those essays and how did he convey his message to the interviewer during Kellogg’s interview? But then I thought that he might be one of the brightest upcoming professionals in Japan and one should not deny him an admission to Kellogg because of his poor English skills? But such is you mind, it keeps throwing stupid questions at you! What about GMAT verbal? How did he comprehend those dreaded paragraphs? And what about AWA score? But at that point I said to myself “you are nothing but a jealous guy who got WLed at Kellogg whereas he is already IN contributing to Kellogg's diversity”….


Haven't you heard the stories of people hiring stand-ins for interviews and having "consultants" write their essays. My interviewers didnt ask to see ID or anything, so I could easily have sent someone in my place.
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[#permalink] New post   04 Dec 2007, 14:19
riverripper wrote:
haddy74 wrote:
rhyme wrote:
Instead of saying "The firm's strategies positively impacted consumer demand", classic Brazilian guy's attempt would read something like: "The firm that had the strategies that change the market would have to have a strategy that made the demand to go up by a little if the strategy was OK but a lot if the strategy was good, so and we saw that the strategy is maybe a bit better than GOOD so then people need more things more."

(If I sound irritated... its cause I am ... I was up until 2am cleaning up Brazilian guy's work)


And here is the fundamental question. How the hell he got into GSB at the fist place? Diversity, dirversity, diversity!!

Sitting in Kellogg’s main lobby while waiting for one of its admissions associates, my mind was desperately busy in devising strategies that could potentially convince her to take me off the 3rd round waitlist! In comes a new Asian student. He walks to the Kellogg’s lobby attendant and asks her about the office of the financial aid. He has to repeat his question three times before the attendant could understand him. She replies back but now the student is having hard time in understanding her. Finally she has to speak really slowly so that he can understand it. I am not making it up this story. This is exactly what happened. The student looked very polished (the way he was dressed up) but his verbal skills were almost non-existent. And I just kept on thinking that how did he write all those essays and how did he convey his message to the interviewer during Kellogg’s interview? But then I thought that he might be one of the brightest upcoming professionals in Japan and one should not deny him an admission to Kellogg because of his poor English skills? But such is you mind, it keeps throwing stupid questions at you! What about GMAT verbal? How did he comprehend those dreaded paragraphs? And what about AWA score? But at that point I said to myself “you are nothing but a jealous guy who got WLed at Kellogg whereas he is already IN contributing to Kellogg's diversity”….


Haven't you heard the stories of people hiring stand-ins for interviews and having "consultants" write their essays. My interviewers didnt ask to see ID or anything, so I could easily have sent someone in my place.



I'm also surprised by this.... Eventually, they'll probably ask for ID. With all the checks, I'm surprised they don't do this.
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riverripper
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[#permalink] New post   04 Dec 2007, 14:25
gmatclb wrote:
I'm also surprised by this.... Eventually, they'll probably ask for ID. With all the checks, I'm surprised they don't do this.


I think some schools do just that. Its a lot easier for this during an on campus or hub interview since they can just make it part of the sign in process.
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[#permalink] New post   04 Dec 2007, 16:32
Alumni interviews are often conducted in the best joint language of the interviewer and applicant, limiting the interview's effectiveness as a linguistic test.

I asked two students I know about their interviews - one in Turkish, one in Korean.
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[#permalink] New post   04 Dec 2007, 16:56
aaudetat wrote:
Alumni interviews are often conducted in the best joint language of the interviewer and applicant, limiting the interview's effectiveness as a linguistic test.

I asked two students I know about their interviews - one in Turkish, one in Korean.


The opposite was true during my interview: the alumn-interviewer clarified that interviews should be held in English, and so it was, even when both of us spoke the same foreign language.

L.
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