Low GMAT and good Work Ex, how good for top univs

Depends how you define "top" universities.

For example, I recently had a candid conversation with an adcom director a top 5 school. We discussed GMAT scores and work experience and other things.

Here are the things that came from that meeting and other ones I've had.

1. She asked how many times I had taken the GMAT. I told her, and she said good. "You'd be suprised how many people take it once, get a 690, and assume that's good enough. It's not."

2. I know of only one person at this school with < 600 who was accepted, but they applied twice over the course of a year, and had a masters degree.

3. She asked what my GMAT score was. I told her. She said "Good, you needed it". I asked what made her say that. "To compensate for your GPA". My GPA is a 3.0/4.0 out of a top 10 university. So, put that in perspective.

4. Another friend of mine with lots of work experience - 10+ years, etc, assumed his 680 was good enough. He was told to either retake or take an accounting course. The reason was that his 680 is unremarkable, and his GPA (2.6) was very weak. I assumed that more work experience discounted his GPA but it does not. As it was explained to him by another adcom (I'm paraphrasing as I wasnt there) - "Remember, you may have a poor GPA and lots of work experience to compensate, but someone else is going to have a strong GPA and the same work experience as you. You can't compare yourself to the average in every case -- your application will be viewed against the pool as a whole. You may have a 600 GMAT and 15 years work experience, but someone else will have a 740 GMAT and 15 years work experience. Unless your experiences are truly and totally unique - airline pilot for singapore airlines or something esoteric like this - your work experience is not going to, at least not on its own, compensate."

5. You = indian + engineer + PMP. Not particularly distinctive frankly. There are a million and a half indian engineers or project managers that apply, most with strong GMAT scores, and most have a tough time getting in to the top schools. Your experience is interesting in that it is in natural gas and not technology - but it is nonetheless part of the "Indian Engineer" crowd. I dont know this for a fact, but it seems to be a staple story here on gmatclub - if you are an engineer from india, your application needs to be especially strong.

Overall, I dont mean to sound harsh but I believe honesty is the best policy: The combination of a 3.0 gpa + 590 GMAT quite frankly, is not a competitive profile. Although you have 9 years work experience, so do hundreds of other applicants, and they will be applying with a 3.5 GPA and 700 GMAT. If by top schools, you mean top 10, I don't think you should apply until you retake the GMAT. If by "top" you mean any of the top 30, some lower options may be viable such as georgetown. Top schools such as Kellogg, Chicago, HBS, Stanford, Wharton, Sloan, Columbia are extremely unlikely given your profile. Apply anyway, but don't get your hopes up. If you do apply, make sure your essays SHINE.
Again, dont mean to be harsh, just trying to be honest so you don't waste your time or get your hopes up.

I generally agree- if you are interested in the ultra elite and elite clusters you face a very large hurdle with a GMAT of 590, especially in combination with a 3.0 GPA.

What do you think chances are with a GPA of 3.96 from a Top 10 US university in Computer Science and a GMAT of 680?

Rhyme, Hjort,
A follow up on your point(s)..

So in general, it would seem like an Indian engineer with a high GMAT score is more of a liability than anything else. Being an Indian engineer myself with 7 years experience in Logic Design for a semiconductor company, a top acad performance (Computer Science UG, university topper) with a Master's degree in Comp Sc from a US univ, a GMAT score of 710, and a business institute internship, I am a little disappointed to read that all my credentials may amount to zero, due to the fact that the applicant pool is composed of a large number of Indians.
A few more years of experience is still not going to add much to distinguish my application.

Which eventually leads to the question: should I spend time doing something to "distinguish" my application? Isn't that trying to be someone you aren't? Just to provide enough fodder for the ADCOM to talk about? Isn't it enough that I have the highest possible drive and achievement level? At some point inbetween it seems like a high achieving Indian became a liability.

And I am definately not trying to say that your comment was wrong... unfortunately it seems to be true, but my point is not invalid either. It is better to be an average applicant with 3.2 GPA from XYZ with 660+ GMAT than an Indian with my creds. Isn't that what seems to be coming out from ADCOMS? At what point does diverse experience override higher achievement levels? Would you rather have 10 people with diverse experiences, but average drive and achivement level or 10 people with similar backgrounds, who will push themselves to the highest level of achivement and sucess?

What would the ADCOMS say to me if I apply to Stanford/Kellog/HBS/Wharton/etc ... "Sorry you are an high-achieving Indian... thanks but no thanks..." Unfair isn't it? And this is being highly speculative of my chances at the top schools if I ever applied....


I think I should stop my rambling now...

Well wait. A few things:

1) I've HEARD but never come remotely close to verifying that indian + IT = disadvantage. I've heard this on this board and a few other places, but unfounded rumours start all the time. So, take that whole thing with a huge grain of salt. I've never ever heard an admissions director say anything like this, and all evidence in this regard appears to be anecdotal at best - there's really very little to support it, though based on what I've seen, I could see a grain of truth. That being said, I know indians at Kellogg, both of which were in IT. So it's not a kiss of death - that much I KNOW.

2) Comparing a 710 GMAT with a Masters Degree to the original poster with a 590 and a 3.0 gpa is comparing apples and oranges.



It wont add anything because no matter what, there's always someone else with the same amount of experience and a higher GMAT/GPA. Apply when you feel you are ready - not when you have "enough" experience. I made the mistake of waiting because I thought more experience would help. It doesn't. It just means that I'm compared to a different set of people. And frankly, I probably would have been better off two years ago than I am now. It kills me, but its true.



It's too late to "do something" this year. Adcoms will be very suspicious of extracurricular activites that start in 06. It's just, well, too convienent. Focus instead of what you have done, and make that shine.



Sadly no. But, you should be happy about one thing - the answer is no for everybody. The schools are not looking for just the investment banker workaholics, they want diverse rounded individuals with a variety of interests and skills, not just people who have drive. Think about it, everyone who applies to MBA programs has drive. They probably all have high achievement to some extent as well.

What makes you special?
What makes you different?
Why are you interesting as a person?
What do you do in your spare time thats noteworthy?
How will bringing you into the classroom enhance the curriculum?
Are you nice to work with?
Do you respect other people?
Etc.


Don't despair man. Remember to focus on what makes you special. Achievement is part of it, drive maybe, but you need to dig deeper than that to really make yourself seem like an individual.

Thanks Rhyme... it seems like the idea is to distinguish oneself by as many criteria, which may not be just acads or numbers but other "people/social skills".
I think I should forget all about the pool and focus on distinguishing myself.

Hmmm.. maybe another year shouldn't make too much of a difference for me, provided I can build something up in a year and a half.

Fall 08 is sounding a lot better....

You have a patience I admire. After doing the GMAT, I cant imagine saying "Ok, well lets wait one more year to apply!". Fall 07 for me. All the way.

What do you for a living? I bet I can find a way to spin it into something unique. Dont tell me titles, tell me about the project.

Theres a post around here somewhere on resumes.... i think it does a good job talking about how things can be made interesting.

Think of the admissions director, as, I don't know, Catherine Zeta Jones sitting a bar all by herself. You have to impress her, and your crappy job title isn't going to do it. Nor is your salary cause she makes more in a day than you do in a year. She's also not going to be too impressed that you have a lot of drive. So does every other guy who trys to hit on her. What would you tell her about yourself that's unique enough to make her remember you as something more than a drooling fan or psychotic pervert?

"Hi, im haas_mba07"
"Hi, I'm Catherine Zeta Jones"
"Yes, I know"
"So, tell me about yourself haas underscore m bee a oh seven."
"Well, cathy, I'm a project manager at some company that makes nuts for use in your coffee machine."
"I see. Did you know I make $100,000,000 a second?"
"Oh right yes, ok, uhm... Well, I have a lot of passion and drive."
"Your not going to get to use them tonight haas. Not with this sales pitch."
"Oh uhm, ok, well did you know that in my spare I time I, uhm, compose classical music?"
"Really? I love classical music!"
"Yea, I picked it up a few years ago while designing a new coffee pot called the Espresso Destructo. It made 1,000 espresso's a second. I needed the classical music to help bring me down from my caffiene highs. You know, I was a product tester then. God I never slept."
"Wow, you are so multi talented *giggle*"
"Well, yes, I bring a lot of different things to the table."
"Do you speak more than one language?"
"Of course, bak bara lat bak shulpa loo tah!"
"Wow!! Thats so sexy! What did you just say?"
"Well, while living in India I picked up a little urdu, so I just said that you look less unpleasant than a dead cow."
"Aww...."
"Actually it was gibberish."
"hah! Your humorous too!"
"Yea, well, you know..."
"Want to go back to my apartment Mr. haas?"
"Wow!!"
"Well, you see, I'm just like Harvard. Very few get in, but those that get invited, tend to accept the invite."
"Yea, well, I bet your yield would be about 90%!"
"Sweetie, it would be about 100%."
"Yea, I bet. Lets go."
"Ok, you drive!"

The moral of the story is: Admissions directors are actually cute girls with part time jobs reading applications. Actually, the moral is just to be interesting.

Take what you've done and talk about it as if it might be interesting to someone how knows jack about it. Make it about you. It can be anything - even something as simple as listening to classical music at work because you had to relax - whatever. Just something about who you are as a person, and why that's a little unique.

Putting a spin on my job profile would be a creative process indeed... but this is a version I describe frankly (without embelishment)

The main aspects of my job are :

a. Work with the chief architect of the group to analyze and evaluate the design aspects of our next generation chips. I am one of about 12 people who work with the Chief Architect.

b. Work for my design manager to come up with schedule for execution of the project related to my block on the chip.

c. Implement, execute and deliver my block within the promised schedule and within the design specs agreed upon with the Chief Architect. This is the most creative aspect of my job, as it gives a lot of leeway to come up with innovative stuff within very tight constraints.

d. Work with the software and verification team to complete functional testing of my block.

e. Deliver block to the integration team to be sent to manufacturing (TSMC, IBM etc).

f. Wait for the chip to come back from manufacturing and test silicon once its back. Validate silicon and deliver to production.

g. Before the chip goes into production, go to customers like Nokia, HP, Cisco, Juniper Networks and work with their design teams to see how they can utilize the features offered on the chip and specifically my block to enhance their usability.

h. Support customers with any usability issues and functional bugs if any.

And thats it... All these are not necessarily in series and all could be active at the same time depending on the project. This repeats for each chip and we have about 4-5 different chips spanning over 3 generations deployed with customers. Need to support all of them.

What do these chips do? I mean, at a high level.

Can you think of any products that actually contain your chips? Specifically some aspect of some chip that you developed?

Cause, instantly here's what I'm thinking. Cisco. Juniper. HP. Routers. Internet. Traffic. Chips do some kind of logic. Since you havent told me, I'm going to take a total guess and run with it.

Maybe one of your chips is in these routers. Maybe, its in one of their flagship products. All of a sudden now were talking about having developed a chip that is used in maybe 90% off all internet backbones - this very text was handled by my chip. Now, I'm getting interesting... It's not just design and development now.... its business impact. It's something interesting. The man who helped build the backbone of what we now call the internet -- mr haas.

Or, chips used globally. IBM, HP, Juniper. Multiple clients, I'm already client facing and I want to move into mgmt consulting - a role in wihch I can suceed because I already work with 10% of the fortune 500, etc. etc.

See what I'm trying to do? Weave what sounds unbelievably boring to me because I dont know anything about chips and I dont understand half of what you really do. ... All this stuff - silicon... wafers.... chips.... yawn - needs to become something I can relate to.

So lets run with the internet thing.

What, specifically, did you develop for Cisco that is now in their product line somewhere?

Maybe you would say "Designed XOR NAND chip with bifurcated dual pipeline waggabies capable of handling 64,000 inputs from both analog and digital ends of the wave spectrum increasing overall latency round trip packet speed by 30%"

This is what youd say to another engineer.

To someone on an elevator you might say "I developed a chip that reduces overhead in tramissions over the internet. It basically made things 30% faster."

Now youve got the groundwork, but now you need a problem/solution that gets you to this point. And here's how that comes to play.

1. Think of the chip
2. What was one thing that was challenging about it?
3. Dumb it down a little so that it makes sense - you do this for two reasons, (1) adcom may not be an engineer (2) you dont have a lot of space to sit there and talk about the specifics.
4. Take #3 and turn it into "What would have happened if I hadn't solved that?"
5. Write an outline that talks through 3 and 4.
6. Add a sentence about the positive outcome.

Repeat the general idea for different subject areas: analytics, leaderhsip, etc.


So lets just make something up for leaderhship.

"When HP contacted my firm , XXXX, looking for a chip capable of increasing their high end product performance, I knew we would face a challenge. From an analytical standpoint, developing a new algorithim better than the one we already had would be challenging. I knew, however, that we would also face a challenge working with HP as they were undergoing a restructuring and thus were not particularly responsive to queries from my design team. I knew that, if we were going to meet our deadlines, I had to get HP onboard, even if they were in the middle of some difficult times of their own. I called the account manager at HP, explained my concerns and started a weekly meeting with him, my team, an analyst from HP and a project sponsor. Within two weeks, my team and I had developed a preliminary chip design which showed promise. Continued analysis and refiment brought hte chips overall speed up by 30%, and we were able to deliver this to HP on time and under budget. In fact, over 75% of all internet traffic in the world today will at some point during the course of the day travel through an HP product carrying the chip my team and I built."

Ok so I made the story up, and its probably way off from your actual experience, but it's interesting. Find something like this - if you dont know where your chips end up, go to your boss and find out. Ask him who the sales manager for the Cisco account is. So talk to the sales guy - he will know exactly where the chips end up in the Cisco product line.

Note also that it doesnt need to be as drastic as I made it. Even something like "HP now uses my chip in over 30% of their products", is already impressive.

Dude, You are hilarious, but have a great way with words....

Thanks for putting it in a form that is not only funny but also extremely intuitive to grasp.

Thanks man... a good lesson learnt today.

Actually we do sell these chips to Cisco and yes our chips do form the backbone of the routers.

https://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/hw/ ... c6bd6.html

Get your drift... will actually work on sprucing up my project work for the last 7 years.

Thanks again, Rhyme.

Yea, this is spinnable. See my made up story above that I wrote before I saw what your chips actually do.

Just one question....

Provides performance of up to 1 million packets per second (PPS) in Cisco Express Forwarding switching (an increase of up to 250 percent over the Cisco 7200 Series NPE-400)
Offers three Gigabit Ethernet/Fast Ethernet ports that do not take up bandwidth points
Doubles the amount of available DRAM (to 1 GB)

What the good god is this? A script kiddie's denial of service launch pad? Good lord. 1 million packets? 1GB of ram? What in the !@#!@. Thats an insane little box.

Ok here is the simple translation...

You talk through the network cable @ about 100Mbps (10^6 bits per second) or lesser through your wireless (5Mbps). Say you wanted to download a picture of Catherine Zeta Jones (about 100Mbps.. its a bit one.. high res... )

That goes to your cable/DSL central office. At the central office they receive the same request from ten others like you who all want to download a similar picture... say there are a 100 of those.

The central office combines all of these requests and forwards the request for 100x100^6 bits/sec, to a bigger office which has the part that we make. It takes this request and based on where it should go will route it and forward it to the appropriate port.

Say you have a box, with one cable coming in and 10 going out. If your request has to go on outgoing port0, then the chip on that board will go it. For some other request, if the request needs to go to port 9 it will do it. Not only that, it will take the returning data and send it back on the correct port0 back to you. This is just one functionality, and this gets more and more complicated as we tag on features onto this.

Hope this clarifies... And it would be extremely expensive to use this for DoS attacks.. These things can go from a couple of hundred thousand to about $20 Million.

I have heard that the average GMAT for Indian IT types (males I guess) at elite & ultra elites schools is about 730 - I have no way to confirm this.

I guess it just boils down to the fact every single top business school values diversity and explicity says so. If any cohort applies in numbers that exceed their overall representation in the population, then it will be more difficult for them to gain entrance. Unfortunately, the Indian IT cohort applies in numbers exponentially greater than their overall representation. It's a tough group to crack.

I might have some good new for Haas_mba07 though. I read in a blog that US citizens and permanent residents are considered separately from Indian nationals. I know that you are here in the bay area, but I don't know if you are a citizen or PR. There are still a lot of ethnic Indians here in the US, but it probably helps a lot to be separate from the group applying from India.

That may be something that works for me... Either way, I am leaning towards going for an 2008 Fall program... will give me time to work on my professional orientation and also explore further possibilities with my business institute internship.