Not a happy ending..... yet : Share GMAT Experience

josh478

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22 Sep 2006, 18:54

I do not disagree with you, Pelihu or Praetorian. I know that the GMAT has value, but it is hard to struggle with something like this that will make or break my dream (like many others here). I know I can do it, but there are always those points of self doubt (pity?) that we can fall into. ARen't most of the people here used to being in the top 10% of whatever they do? So to come up short is always a dissapointment.

Because the GMAT is important this incredible website exists, which is full of great people and a vibrant supportive community. A good result on the test reflects a major opportunity for many people to succeed in something that can change the life they hope to live. Me included.

I know that if I had scored much higher, my attitude would be different :oops:

Plus, the GMAT pales in comparison to the challenges facing a doctoral student (Comps!) But, this hurdle can be overcome with hard work, drive and support of a loving family.

Ok, enough complaining on my part! It isn't the end of the world.

I have read enough of the wonderful success stories here to know anyone can do well on this test...it is just a matter of time for me as well.

Please excuse me for my negative attitude... it just a reflection of the importance of this endeavor and the challenge it represents (especially for us less math-savvy GMATers).
cheers.

Positive thinker

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22 Sep 2006, 20:48

GMAT does not show how smart you are or anything close to it. I know people that did horrible on SATS, GMAT and LSAT and graduated with 3.5 GPA's . Standardized tests are crap and we all know it. Its not a proven predictor of how good u will in business or in grad school. Besides i know of no one that asks for gmat scores in employment.

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pelihu

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23 Sep 2006, 03:23

Positive thinker wrote:

GMAT does not show how smart you are or anything close to it. I know people that did horrible on SATS, GMAT and LSAT and graduated with 3.5 GPA's . Standardized tests are crap and we all know it. Its not a proven predictor of how good u will in business or in grad school. Besides i know of no one that asks for gmat scores in employment.

Actually, I believe that almost everyone would agree to the opposite - that standardized tests are better indicators of intelligence, and grades are better indicators of hard work; of course both intelligence and hard work factor into both. It is in fact proven that the GMAT is a better indicator of business school performance than grades are. It's also true of the LSAT. I have no information regarding the SAT.

Here's a link talking about GMAT predictive validity:
https://www.gmac.com/gmac/ResearchandTre ... lidity.htm

Mckinsey, Goldman Sachs, Bain, Boston Consulting, Citigroup and Morgan Stanley all ask for GMAT scores (or other standardized test scores) as part of their application. It probably isn't surprising that these same companies are also almost always listed among the most desirable by MBA students in the Fortune magazine poll (the companies above were ranked #1, 3, 4, 5, 6 & 10).

Here's a link with the Fortune poll for this year:
https://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/ ... index.html

If you'd like to see for yourself, you can go to Mckinsey's website (they were named #1 most desirable again this year) and fill out their application. They do in fact ask for SAT, GMAT, LSAT and whetever else you have taken. If you have taken one of the exams but choose not to disclose the score, you need to say why - I believe this is a sure way to get your application dumped in the trash.

So, there is quite a bit of evidence that the GMAT does predict success in business school. It's also clear that elite companies ask for GMAT scores because they believe it predicts job performance. And of course, business schools know GMAT scores are doubly important to their own rankings because GMAT score is a factor in the rankings, and students with higher GMAT scores are more employable, which also factors into rankings. To paraphrase a real live person from Chicago GSB admissions, your GMAT score will be with you forever, and even if you are admitted, a low score will haunt you when you look for a job.

Positive thinker

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23 Sep 2006, 08:15

DO you go to Harvard you are full of it.......I read countless posts saying that GMAT doesn't measure anything like that and it isn't a good indicator for intelligence.......Standardiczed tests are crap everyone knows it....You think what you like.......Just to to show you i know people who scored around the 800-900 on sat and graduated top of their class from reputable universities........Not everyone has to go to NYU, COLUMBIA.........Im sorry to say but your post is full of crap......This is not the first time I have read something from you......I know tons of smart people who have bombed these tests and gotten into good schools.....Theres alot more to business than grades......its called Street Smart something it tkaes years to master which apparently you do not have..........

ONE NOTE FROM AN ADMISSIONS COUNSELOR I SPOKE WITH:

GMAT isn't a good predictor of academic success, your grades from 4 yrs of college are, no one can base so much on a test of 2 hrs.........And this is from a really good school....It depends on the school..........And i can care less about NYU, Columbia..........AN MBA is an MBA no matter where you go.........I know someone who went to the smae place where i graduated and is mkaing 6 figures........so please..enough with ur SMART replies........Looks like u went to Harvard and frown upon people who don't do ewll as you..

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pelihu

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23 Sep 2006, 10:19

"One note from an admissions counselor you spoke with" . . . such a reputable source certainly convinces me :roll:

"An MBA is an MBA" . . . right. Why even take the GMAT then, you can get an MBA from the University of Phoenix or something and skip it altogether. Of course, the difference in first year compensation between just any MBA and an MBA from a top 10 schools is $80k or more, to say nothing of future potential.

"I know someone who went to the same place I graduates and is making 6 figures" . . . well if you went to Harvard, then EVERYONE that graduated from the same place would be making six figures.

You're nothing but a troll. If you already graduated with an MBA why are you trolling for responses with your posts about taking the GMAT? I do not look favorably or poorly upon anyone because of their GMAT score, or even the school that they go to; in fact I'm not stating my own opinion at all. I'm pointing out logical analyses based on facts and actual GMAT statistics and reports from reliable sources. You can think creatively about what the GMAT or an MBA means, but we don't live in fantasyland.

Also, if you really believe that all MBAs are the same, why are you concerned if I go to Harvard? Your words bely your own beliefs.

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kevincan

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23 Sep 2006, 10:47

Can you be successful in business without having scored high in the GMAT? Sure! Come to think of it, you don't even need an MBA!

Can you get into a good/reputable MBA program without a 650 on the GMAT? Certainly. Harvard/Chicago/Columbia/Stanford could fill their programs with 770+ scorers if they chose to do so. You can rest assured, however, that the low scorers who are admitted to such programs present a compelling case for doing an MBA there.

Are you doomed to middle management if you don't go to a top 25 school? By no means! Dedication, talent, common sense, people/communication skills and connections can be combined to open up nearly every door. A top 10 or top 25 MBAer will just open them sooner.

If you want to be hired by a first-rate accounting/consulting firm upon graduation, will you be asked about your GMAT score? You can bet on it!

Would raising your score from 620 to 700 enhance your admission chances at a top 25 school? Quite a bit. A 620 needs to be offset, a 700 is the norm for these programs.

How about from 710 to 760? Somewhat, especially if your undergrad work is less than outstanding. You can't help being impressed by a 760. Though a 760-800 is no guarantee of admission, if you have the social/leadership skills and experience to go with a stellar score, I like your chances a whole lot.

Sometimes I think that applying for an MBA with a high GMAT is akin to aspiring to an acting career with good looks. I am sure that with perseverance and the right tools (i.e. GMATCLUB), we can all become at least reasonably attractive to admissions committees in terms of the GMAT, if not drop-dead gorgeous!

uvs_mba

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23 Sep 2006, 10:50

kevincan wrote:

Can you be successful in business without having scored high in the GMAT? Sure! Come to think of it, you don't even need an MBA!

Can you get into a good/reputable MBA program without a 650 on the GMAT? Certainly. Harvard/Chicago/Columbia/Stanford could fill their programs with 770+ scorers if they chose to do so. You can rest assured, however, that the low scorers who are admitted to such programs present a compelling case for doing an MBA there.

Are you doomed to middle management if you don't go to a top 25 school? By no means! Dedication, talent, common sense, people/communication skills and connections can be combined to open up nearly every door. A top 10 or top 25 MBAer will just open them sooner.

If you want to be hired by a first-rate accounting/consulting firm upon graduation, will you be asked about your GMAT score? You can bet on it!

Would raising your score from 620 to 700 enhance your admission chances at a top 25 school? Quite a bit. A 620 needs to be offset, a 700 is the norm for these programs.

How about from 710 to 760? Somewhat, especially if your undergrad work is less than outstanding. You can't help being impressed by a 760. Though a 760-800 is no guarantee of admission, if you have the social/leadership skills and experience to go with a stellar score, I like your chances a whole lot.

Sometimes I think that applying for an MBA with a high GMAT is akin to aspiring to an acting career with good looks. I am sure that with perseverance and the right tools (i.e. GMATCLUB), we can all become at least reasonably attractive to admissions committees in terms of the GMAT, if not drop-dead gorgeous!

Nice one Kevin :-D

Positive thinker

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23 Sep 2006, 11:52

I just want to offer a piece of mind and not be rude in any way.....Pelihu i believe your rely too much on the facts than on anything else. I can care less where you graduated from, but from my experience and where i went to school my opinion reflects what kevin can says. I believe an MBA is important for self-fulfillment and increasing your oppurtunities. But you misconstued my words. I said an MBA is and MBA NO MATTER WHERE YOU GO....The university of Phoenix is garbage thats not even close in my mind that i would even do something stupid like that.......What i meant that people are different some want to go to NYU but some want to go to a school that has a good reputation and that is accredited. I don't care about the top ten schools at all.......An MBA is just as good at the other school because it is accredited and thats all i frankly care about..........In terms of getting a good job its all about who you know.....not what know.......Hard work and proving yourself to you boss means much more than what you got on some meaningless test.......

Take this is as you wish.......just remember people are different in terms of their goals and desires.....

u2lover

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23 Sep 2006, 13:47

hey guys... you're completely off track here... I bet josh478 didn't want to turn his experience into the argument b/w u2 :lol:

on the other hand, it's ok to be obsessed with statistics and reliable sources... just don't let facts and numbers get into your head and don't be arrogant to each other!!! this is what I liked so far about this club -> competitive people push aside their past achievements and help other hopefuls! Such attitude will carry you not only in a professional life, but also in personal!

Josh478, put some more work into this test, you will see the result!!! best of luck to you!

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pelihu

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23 Sep 2006, 14:21

I totally agree Kevin. You don't need an MBA to succeed in business, and having an MBA from a top school doesn't mean you will succeed. Still, the corelation is high. The top employers pretty much fill 95% their slots each year with students from 20 or fewer schools. The acting analogy is a good one. Actors that aren't great looking can succeed, but they usually have something pretty unique to offer. Joe Pesci comes to mind.

Positive thinker wrote:

I just want to offer a piece of mind and not be rude in any way.....Pelihu i believe your rely too much on the facts than on anything else. I can care less where you graduated from, but from my experience and where i went to school my opinion reflects what kevin can says. I believe an MBA is important for self-fulfillment and increasing your oppurtunities. But you misconstued my words. I said an MBA is and MBA NO MATTER WHERE YOU GO....The university of Phoenix is garbage thats not even close in my mind that i would even do something stupid like that.......What i meant that people are different some want to go to NYU but some want to go to a school that has a good reputation and that is accredited. I don't care about the top ten schools at all.......An MBA is just as good at the other school because it is accredited and thats all i frankly care about..........In terms of getting a good job its all about who you know.....not what know.......Hard work and proving yourself to you boss means much more than what you got on some meaningless test.......

Take this is as you wish.......just remember people are different in terms of their goals and desires.....

So, instead of relying on facts, we should what, move to Mr. Roger's neighborhood and pretend? We can make believe that GMAT scores don't matter, and we can make believe that every business school is the same, and we can pretend that every job with every employer is equal. Why stop there? Why not make believe that $120k is the same as $60k? We could make believe that a Kia is the same as a Mercedes but that don't make it so.

You are certainly hostile towards the University of Phoenix (an accredited school according to their website), but every other school is the same? The beauty of an MBA from a top business school is that it then is no longer about who you know. As Kevin said, a degree from a good school will open up doors for you. That's the very reason why most of the people here would like to score well and get into the schools of their choice.

willget800

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23 Sep 2006, 15:17

Education is not important to be successful. But yes it does help in making the path easier.

If you end goal is success in your field, there are many paths to reach there. One such path might be MBA from top 10, because you know it is the easier path.
Other path might be top 50 MBA. You will reach there, but it might take in more effort and more time than from a top 10 MBA.

Same thing with your gmat.
Everything in life you have many paths to choose from. Each person is free to choose his own path.BUt yes Pehilu is right. A good GMAT will make it easier for you to land up with a better MBA and a better job.. It gives you a stronger base for you building to be constructed.

necromonger

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23 Sep 2006, 15:26

I don't understand the attack on the correlation and importance of GMAT, or on the person who is pointing to it.

It is one thing to take examples exceptions to the rules (that yes, even dropouts can be billionaires - Bill Gates and Steve Jobs) but another thing to try to establish that as a generalized fact.

There's a saying in my language that roughly translates to "if a cat drinks milk with its eyes closed, it does not mean the world can't see it." Whether we agree with it or not, like it or not, it's a fact that GMAT is an important factor, it's a fact that there is a statistical correlation between a higher score and performance in the first year of business school, it's a fact that those who are in better institutes stand a better chance at success and progression than those who don't. It's not about exceptions, it's about the probability of success and availability of opportunities increasing with good education. It certainly does not mean that those who do not fall into that criteria are doomed to fail.

Keeping that in mind, instead of deluding ourselves that it doesn't matter, it's better to be realistic and study hard, because it does matter. Why get upset about someone who's just pointing it out?!

willget800

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23 Sep 2006, 16:40

well put necro and pehilu.

thats precisely my point.. a personal example is my dad, he does not have even have a high school diploma, but he has a very successfull business. It does not mean, I can do the same and become successful.. Actually with an education from top 10, i can maximize on the education and network gained to expand it bigger and better!

Instead think of it this way. You already are smart, why not put in more effort and go to top 10.. maybe you will double your success.. because either way you going to be successful.
ps: positive thinker, live up to your name

We all are in the same boat.. all trying to get to our goals!

necromonger

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23 Sep 2006, 17:02

willget800 wrote:

well put necro and pehilu.

thats precisely my point.. a personal example is my dad, he does not have even have a high school diploma, but he has a very successfull business. It does not mean, I can do the same and become successful.. Actually with an education from top 10, i can maximize on the education and network gained to expand it bigger and better!
*snip*

You nailed it right on the head there, willget :)

josh478

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23 Sep 2006, 17:38

My dissapointment and dissolusion has sparked a lively discussion. But, I want to be clear that I understand that the FACT is the GMAT matters. But, there is a part of me that wished it didn't matter as much for Doctoral programs. That is all. For the MBA, the GMAT seems to be a great predictor of success (something like .52 if I remember right.) But, in my case, I have already "succeeded" in graduate school. So, the GMAT is not as valid in my case, especially since I had a 540 the first time! (I realize that my school, University of Alaska, Anchorage, is not even a top 100, or 500 for that matter! but, it is AACSB, which is the gold standard for biz schools , and my profs come from pretty good schools also).

My first GMAT, I did literally no studying at all and it showed with a 25 Q score! I studied for about a month and a half and raised it to 37+. Not bad. But, I know that I have to do it, regardless of my opinion of whether it is good or not. The fact is, we all have to do it. I just vented my frustrations, which I am sure others share, that we have to go through this "right of passage" to get to prove we are capable of succeeding in grad school. But, as I mentioned, I already have proved it. But, still, they want the GMAT score. I know for a fact it isn't ALL about the GMAT, but it is important to be competative. So, love it or hate it, it is a necessary evil. And for some of us, the most difficult obstacle to get where we want to go.

I am determined to give it a go in early December. i will work as hard as I can until then. And I want to thank you all at this site for being a great positive influence adding to my optimism that I can achieve what I need in order to get to the real hard stuff.. a biz doc program.

cheers.

necromonger

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23 Sep 2006, 18:07

Josh,

If you havent' explored this forum - it's got great preparatory material, tips etc. in both quant and verbal. Spending time there will certainly help you boost your performance,

Good luck with your studies, get GMAT over with and go for that PhD you want!

gmatclubot

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23 Sep 2006, 18:07