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Thanks Jumbee for your post. Very detailed and nicely structured.

I am a bit surprised, but Jumbee made some interesting observations about the forum and i would like to add some perspective for our members. :)

The use of this forum is totally, and i mean totally dependent on how useful we want to make it for ourselves.

We have members from atleast 68 countries. Its quite possible that different people have vastly different needs. We got to appreciate that people might have different educational backgrounds and most dont know too much about the content of GMAT when they join. The OG is not freely available in most countries as it is here. This forum is probably one of the major sources of information for them. We got to appreciate that

Sure, problems are difficult. The best way to retain knowledge is to work hard to earn it. Solving difficult problems is one of the better ways to do so. if you are looking for a 48+ quant, i can assure you that OG is not sufficient. OG is representative, but not complete. On test day, unless one understands a concept really well, I am confident that that person will struggle to solve problems under time pressure. The "bad problems" that you are talking about maybe important for someone else. We simply dont know. Solving tough problems forces you to summon all your knowledge available to solve a problem. If you can do it, fine. But if not, you learn more about the concept. This is the way we learn about a concept. OG gives specific problems, sure, but does solving them tell you everything about that concept. I dont think so :)

About maintaining the quality of discussions, we have to keep in mind that most of us are working professionals who are looking for practice and do not study the way you and me might do. We are trying very hard to build a culture of learning by discussion and i explain answers everytime i can. But we cannot expect everyone to have time and the motivation to explain. So that explains the "it is C" phenomenon. But its not as pervasive as one might think.

Finally,i would like to stress, that the use of this forum is only dependent on how useful you want to make it for yourself. Post problems from your sources if you dont like what others are posting. Be active and ask questions.

I hope my comments have given you guys more information about the use of this forum. :)

Good Luck
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Thanks for the input Praet. I understand your well-made points.

Please donтАЩt think this is a quarrel. This is only my opinion and I have learned very well in this life that my opinion can be wrong.

I hope that my comments were taken as constructive criticism not complaining. That was my intent at least.

First, my statement that included тАЬpeople from around the world postтАжтАЭ was definitely meant to be inclusive of the U.S.

Second, I just donтАЩt want people to stress over trying to solve all the problems on this forum. If you miss a question posted on this forum, it may be because you donтАЩt know how to answer it. That is a problem that you need address. Alternatively, if you canтАЩt answer a question on this forum, it may also be because the question is very poorly worded or structured. It could be a GMAT тАЬstyleтАЭ question without the elegance and nuance of a real GMAT question. For example I have noticed DS questions posted here that contain contradictory information in the two data statements. ETS does not do this, and practicing on a poorly structured question like this does not advance your learning. I would not suggest people worry about this type of question any more that I would endorse that people stress because they canтАЩt answer all the Kaplan RC questions. The Kaplan RC is just plain bad practice. Not representative of the real test. This, IтАЩm aware, is why you are developing questions that you are selling for download; because there is a demand for more тАЬgoodтАЭ questions. Right?

Third, unless I didnтАЩt emphasize it enough, this site is a great resource and all of you guys are providing and outstanding service. I completely agree, you get out of it what you desire to get out of it.

Thanks again, and thanks for letting me clarify my position.

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oh no, come on, You are doing great, jumbee. there are no quarrels at GMAT Club. that i will assure you. :)

Quote:
Thanks for the input Praet. I understand your well-made points. Please donтАЩt think this is a quarrel. This is only my opinion and I have learned very well in this life that my opinion can be wrong. I hope that my comments were taken as constructive criticism not complaining. That was my intent at least.


You are right. But I only wanted to put your observations into perspective. It is difficult to someone who just started out to analyze a problem if he or she does not understand it. By posting it here, they might learn that yes, these kind of questions are incorrect. thats why one might see some questions here that are wrong or some that are out of scope of the GMAT. :)

Quote:
First, my statement that included тАЬpeople from around the world postтАжтАЭ was definitely meant to be inclusive of the U.S.


Sure.

Quote:
Second, I just donтАЩt want people to stress over trying to solve all the problems on this forum. If you miss a question posted on this forum, it may be because you donтАЩt know how to answer it. That is a problem that you need address. Alternatively, if you canтАЩt answer a question on this forum, it may also be because the question is very poorly worded or structured. It could be a GMAT тАЬstyleтАЭ question without the elegance and nuance of a real GMAT question. For example I have noticed DS questions posted here that contain contradictory information in the two data statements. ETS does not do this, and practicing on a poorly structured question like this does not advance your learning. I would not suggest people worry about this type of question any more that I would endorse that people stress because they canтАЩt answer all the Kaplan RC questions. The Kaplan RC is just plain bad practice. Not representative of the real test. This, IтАЩm aware, is why you are developing questions that you are selling for download; because there is a demand for more тАЬgoodтАЭ questions. Right?


True. very true. Dont stress at problems that look stupid, but look at the final solution and see if its worth learning more about it. We can expect poor quality of questions. Members use different kinds of materials (there are 100's of companies churning out questions). Yes, thats one of the reasons we developed our own product.

Quote:
Third, unless I didnтАЩt emphasize it enough, this site is a great resource and all of you guys are providing and outstanding service. I completely agree, you get out of it what you desire to get out of it.


I appreciate that and i also understand what you are trying to say.

Quote:
Thanks again, and thanks for letting me clarify my position.
Jumbee


You were fine jumbee. I did not disagree with you , i only complemented the information you provided.

Do drop by regularly to help other guys.

thanks. its nice discussing this with you :)

Sincerely
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I tried to look for the gmat game plan website you mention but coun't find it. Would you mind giving me the website address ? Tks
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Hmmm.... Well, I have sometimes found some of the problems - both on verbal and maths forums - quite tough and not really adding value. However "many to most " problems do !. Probably posters need to apply a self conscious GMAT filter before posting - simply the 2 minute test. If the problem cannot be solved in two minutes or max three minutes, well , don't post :-D .

The idea of posting a lot - encouraged by the ops :twisted: probably contributes to a surfeit of sometimes intellectually stimulating problems but not GMAT style. hmmm.... that is precisely how the maths forum is described. :ouch
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anupag wrote:
Hmmm.... Well, I have sometimes found some of the problems - both on verbal and maths forums - quite tough and not really adding value. However "many to most " problems do !. Probably posters need to apply a self conscious GMAT filter before posting - simply the 2 minute test. If the problem cannot be solved in two minutes or max three minutes, well , don't post :-D .

The idea of posting a lot - encouraged by the ops :twisted: probably contributes to a surfeit of sometimes intellectually stimulating problems but not GMAT style. hmmm.... that is precisely how the maths forum is described. :ouch


Anupag

i understand the problem. We are working on a better forum system soon. Its hard to implement some of the things because of the number of posts every day. but i hope to find some solution very soon.

Should we classify the problems into sub-forums -- beginner, intermediate , advanced & Fun Math? I will open up a new forum, initially for math and subsequently for verbal to sort problems according to what our judgement is about the difficulty level of the problem. It will be hard to do it for verbal, but lets see.

Subsequently, we want to make a MOD where members will be given an option while posting the problems. So, the existing math forum will be gradually replaced with a more efficient and more useful system. its gonna be hard, but it would be worth it.

This will be for premium members.

let me know. I will talk to toyvo about it.

Sincerely
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Praet,

Jumbee and Anupag raise some really good points and you are well aware of them. Unfortunately for many of the reasons you cite solving this is not so easy. Dividing the forums into beginner, advanced etc is a good idea as a first step. In addition it would be nice to start a verbal or math forum wherein its *not permitted* to just answer a question with "Its A or its C" you will *have* to give explanations.

One of the things i haven't found on this site is a "Posting ettiquete" FAQ. Perhaps this should be written down and when folks sign up for the club this should be sent alongwith the sign-on notification. Also perhaps all of the moderators should have a link to the guidelines in their signature ?. The regulars here should try really hard to follow the guidelines and set an example for the new folks who join.

Please don't take this as complaining. I've had a few good discussions (most of them with Paul) which were worth joining this forum for .... and i see that your answers are always very clear and detailed.

--Cheers
--V2

P.S ... if you need help with putting up a set of guidelines, please PM me and i'll help in any way i can.
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Version2 wrote:
Praet,

Jumbee and Anupag raise some really good points and you are well aware of them. Unfortunately for many of the reasons you cite solving this is not so easy. Dividing the forums into beginner, advanced etc is a good idea as a first step. In addition it would be nice to start a verbal or math forum wherein its *not permitted* to just answer a question with "Its A or its C" you will *have* to give explanations.

One of the things i haven't found on this site is a "Posting ettiquete" FAQ. Perhaps this should be written down and when folks sign up for the club this should be sent alongwith the sign-on notification. Also perhaps all of the moderators should have a link to the guidelines in their signature ?. The regulars here should try really hard to follow the guidelines and set an example for the new folks who join.

Please don't take this as complaining. I've had a few good discussions (most of them with Paul) which were worth joining this forum for .... and i see that your answers are always very clear and detailed.

--Cheers
--V2

P.S ... if you need help with putting up a set of guidelines, please PM me and i'll help in any way i can.


If you can write for us a set of guidelines, i will be very grateful. :oops:
Sure version2, thanks for your support. I always welcome suggestions.

The categorization will take care of the poor quality or too hard problems. Also it will be less intimidating for beginners to participate. I wanted to do something for them for a long time and i hope we can achieve it.

Now, let us first lead by example and always try to discuss. I do that and other very cooperative members do it. It was necessary that i start this and it seems to have slowly taken effect.

As i explained, it is unfair to "not permit" others to discuss as most of us just are looking for practice. but surely, like minded people like you and me can first set an example.

ok Version and anyone else who wants to comment on the following system , please do so. All criticism welcome. :oops:

So to be fair to those who discuss answers, here is what i am going to do.

- right now, everyone has total access to the category based forum.

- two weeks from now, we want the guys who discuss to have exclusive access to the intermediate and the advanced forums in the Category based system. I am going to move the problems one by one to those forums. So, the plum of our good discussions will be in that area.
every problem in the orginal math forum will be there for a week and then it will be moved to the exclusive area.

- the original math forum will still be there. and we will still help them out by providing good solutions. but if the members want to benefit from others hard work, they should be ready to contribute.

- Should we consider some form of incentive for the members who contribute their work to the CATEGORY Basd forums? maybe a amazon gifts certificate or something? what do you guys think? we are short on money, most of it is allocated to some great projects that we have planned. but i am willing to reward guys who help other out. let me know. :)

As a side note:
I dont mind enforcing the no one-liner rule, but I hate to affect anyone's prep guys. But as you might also agree, its kind of unfair for a guy who works 50-60 hrs a week to do that and still concentrate hard on his personal prep. A dilemma, but lets see.

Thats exactly why i started the math and verbal lessons forum , so that, even if guys dont understand and the answers are incomplete, they can go back to the lessons forum ,and look up whats missing. the lessons are a work in progress as i do a lot of other work too and cant find time to write the kind of quality lessons that i want. :( but its my committment to continue that project, so that even if you and me dont benefit from the lessons, the future 'generations' will.

I hope we can implement the category based system for our most valuable members. I need all of your support guys. please amend/change my suggestions to make this a place for good discussions.
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Praet, by classifying the problems yourself, I believe that it means you have to try out every single problem in order for you to do so? Although we may all have different standards as to what kind of problems are to be classified as "hard", "medium" or "easy", I may have a rough idea and can give you a helping hand in sorting out those problems that I have attempted. If ever you need help in sorting out some of those math problems, feel free to PM me.
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Paul wrote:
Praet, by classifying the problems yourself, I believe that it means you have to try out every single problem in order for you to do so? Although we may all have different standards as to what kind of problems are to be classified as "hard", "medium" or "easy", I may have a rough idea and can give you a helping hand in sorting out those problems that I have attempted. If ever you need help in sorting out some of those math problems, feel free to PM me.


i totally understand.

Sure, i have moved some problems in the category based forums.

you are the Moderator for the math forums, i wonder if you can see the small icons (there are four of them) at the bottom left of every thread . Out of those, the one with ARROW is for MOVING the posts. do you see that?
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:cool I just moved my first topic. I will perhaps not match your pace but I'm on it Praet.
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Praet,

As Paul pointed out , classifying the problems yourself is going to be time intensive. Are you sure you want to do it yourself ??. It has to be done by people though ... i wish there was a way to do this automatically. On the other hand anything which "halle" posts could be marked right away as intermediate or hard ;-)

Quote:
two weeks from now, we want the guys who discuss to have exclusive access to the intermediate and the advanced forums in the Category based system.

What the criteria for "guys who discuss". For eg there are folks who post a lot of questions but rarely 'discuss' answers.


Quote:
Should we consider some form of incentive for the members who contribute their work to the CATEGORY Basd forums?

In general this is good idea. How about creating a voting scheme ??. Let other members decide who gets the reward?.

Actually of all the great projects you folks have in the pipeline i wish one of them involves attracting high quality tutors or supersmart (99%+) scorers to gmat club. I've always searched for akamai posts and always found some pieces of interest there. This could be the single biggest draw to GMAT club. In an exclusive rewards section we could have "Ask the expert" question wherein some detailed advice could be given to solve a specific question. Perhaps you could work out some remuneration with the expert based on number of questions answered?? Just a thought.

Quote:
I dont mind enforcing the no one-liner rule,

I really like enforcing this rule. What the point of posting the answer without explanation?. The OP will post the answer anyways so you are in no way contributing to the discussion. Anyways .. i'll come up with the posting guidelines in a few days ... we can wait and see the effects of that.


--Cheers
--V2
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Wow, these are some neat suggestions. :-D

Quote:
Praet,
As Paul pointed out , classifying the problems yourself is going to be time intensive. Are you sure you want to do it yourself ??. It has to be done by people though ... i wish there was a way to do this automatically. On the other hand anything which "halle" posts could be marked right away as intermediate or hard ;-)


I can give you moderator status. as i explained to Paul, you can careful judge the difficulty level of a problem and move it to the appropriate forum. all Moderators of a forum can move the topics. would you like mod. status? it will surely help me out.

Also, if there are unresolved questions, just move them to the incorrect/poorly worded section. i will take care of those later.

Quote:
What the criteria for "guys who discuss". For eg there are folks who post a lot of questions but rarely 'discuss' answers.


i will take care of the criteria. i got several candidates right now. like i said, i want to keep the regular math forum open ...guys can post there. we will help them out. but if someone wants to take advantage of the premium section, they got to participate in discussions by explaining themselves. i want to keep the basic gmat math forum and the regular math forum open for them to show their committment.

It might be harsh...but i guess we got to do something. :oops:

Quote:
P- Should we consider some form of incentive for the members who contribute their work to the CATEGORY Basd forums?


Quote:
V- In general this is good idea. How about creating a voting scheme ??. Let other members decide who gets the reward?.Actually of all the great projects you folks have in the pipeline i wish one of them involves attracting high quality tutors or supersmart (99%+) scorers to gmat club. I've always searched for akamai posts and always found some pieces of interest there. This could be the single biggest draw to GMAT club. In an exclusive rewards section we could have "Ask the expert" question wherein some detailed advice could be given to solve a specific question. Perhaps you could work out some remuneration with the expert based on number of questions answered?? Just a thought.


yes, i have been mulling that for a loooong looong time. We have discussed hiring tutors way back in february. We hardly got any money, Version 2. All the money from donations and advertising is allocated to our projects and its still not enough. so we got to take it one step at a time. but yes, we will.

About Ask the experts... cool idea.

Akamai, Paul, Kpadma, ndidi204, cbrf3,BG, Anandnk,Geethu, Version2, Hallelujah, monarc, Dharmin are some great contributors,... please forgive me if i missed someone :oops: i only remembered these. should we ask some of these guys to join the expert team

I want to give some reward to this expert team every quarter. Is that ok? I will find some way to reward you guys. Allow us to grow a bit, and in the meantime, stay with us. We could make that section paid access and raise some funds for rewarding the guys. OR allow all our donors to get access. About rewards, i think we can reward based on posts per quarter in the "Experts forum".

About the tutors, give us some time to figure out some way of allocating money to that project.

Quote:
P-I dont mind enforcing the no one-liner rule,
V-I really like enforcing this rule. What the point of posting the answer without explanation?. The OP will post the answer anyways so you are in no way contributing to the discussion. Anyways .. i'll come up with the posting guidelines in a few days ... we can wait and see the effects of that.


you are right. lets try to enforce it. i hope we succeed.

--Cheers
--V2


Thanks guys, you have all been great. Version, let me know what else we can do.
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Jumbee,

Congrats, can you please post the link for GMAT Game Plan site. I really like the idea of having an Access Database. I searched on this site but could not identify the link. If you can post the link that would be grateful.


Thanks,
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Ooops! Sorry, it's called MBA Game Plan!

I messed it up. The link is below. I'll edit my original post so no one else gets sidetracked.

https://www.mbagameplan.com/

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i think the grid is very useful for practicing OG, it's under tools:

https://www.mbagameplan.com/Tools.htm

you can download the zipped or unzipped version and read along the instruction.
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Praet,

Quote:
would you like mod. status? it will surely help me out.


hmmm... i'm reluctant to take mod status now since i'm not sure how much i can do. I have my GMAT in 7 seven weeks and have just started studying ;-). Moreover i'm not on the forums all that much--at most an hour a day (when i'm actually supposed to be working). However once i finish the exam , i'll definitely pitch in to help.

--V2

P.S. ... i know i signed up to write up the posting guidelines FAQ/doc ... look for it sometime near the end of the week :-).
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