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A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduce

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A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduce [#permalink] New post 31 Aug 2004, 23:51
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A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump into the Great Lakes.

(A) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump
(B) reduced the phosphate amount that municipalities had been dumping
(C) reduces the phosphate amount municipalities have been allowed to dump
(D) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities are allowed to dump
(E) reduces the amount of phosphates allowed for dumping by municipalities
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Re: Verb tense & participles [#permalink] New post 16 Mar 2013, 20:41
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D should be the ans.

(A) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump
(B) reduced the phosphate amount that municipalities had been dumping
(C) reduces the phosphate amount municipalities have been allowed to dump
(D) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities are allowed to dump
(E) reduces the amount of phosphates allowed for dumping by municipalities
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Re: Verb tense & participles [#permalink] New post 16 Mar 2013, 22:09
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neha24 wrote:
i strongly feel that D sud be the answer . in fact A is wrong !!
A gives a nonsensical meaning that the agreement of 1972 reduced some thing that these countries had dumped in the past !! u can reduce the amount of something that these countries are dumping at the moment and not of something that they had dumped

Quote:
carcass wrote:D is wrong because it seems to suggest that the permission to municipalities is given by itself and not by an agreement. The verb must point out to the real subject of the sentece: the agreement NOT municipalities


no where it is suggesting such a meaning !! in fact all that D means is that some agreement reduced the amount of some blah blah thing that these municipalities are allowed to dump


In "D" can we use the present tense " are " ? Since the entire argument is in past, why can't we use "were" , instead of "are".
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Re: Verb tense & participles [#permalink] New post 16 Mar 2013, 22:15
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kabilank87 wrote:
1. A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump into the Great Lakes.

(A) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump
(B) reduced the phosphate amount that municipalities had been dumping
(C) reduces the phosphate amount municipalities have been allowed to dump
(D) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities are allowed to dump
(E) reduces the amount of phosphates allowed for dumping by municipalities

The correct answer is A. Why not B or D ?


Guys , i am very uncertain about basics and usage of

1. Present perfect
2. Past perfect
3. Present progressive
4. Past progressive

i am referring Manhattan SC guide for basic. When i am raeding the theory it sounds good, but i often confuses myself while seeing such questions in tests.

will you suggest how can i strengthen these areas. Any materials or guides ..?
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Re: Verb tense & participles [#permalink] New post 17 Mar 2013, 05:26
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Phoenix72 wrote:
D should be the ans.

(A) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump
(B) reduced the phosphate amount that municipalities had been dumping
(C) reduces the phosphate amount municipalities have been allowed to dump
(D) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities are allowed to dump
(E) reduces the amount of phosphates allowed for dumping by municipalities


Hi phoenix,

I am ok with your explanation for "C" and "E". I haven't noticed the use of present tense before.

But will you please explain what's wrong with "A" and "B".
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Re: Verb tense & participles [#permalink] New post 17 Mar 2013, 05:38
kabilank87 wrote:
neha24 wrote:
i strongly feel that D sud be the answer . in fact A is wrong !!
A gives a nonsensical meaning that the agreement of 1972 reduced some thing that these countries had dumped in the past !! u can reduce the amount of something that these countries are dumping at the moment and not of something that they had dumped

Quote:
carcass wrote:D is wrong because it seems to suggest that the permission to municipalities is given by itself and not by an agreement. The verb must point out to the real subject of the sentece: the agreement NOT municipalities


no where it is suggesting such a meaning !! in fact all that D means is that some agreement reduced the amount of some blah blah thing that these municipalities are allowed to dump


In "D" can we use the present tense " are " ? Since the entire argument is in past, why can't we use "were" , instead of "are".


in your explanation of "A", since there are 2 actions happened in the past ( the agreement reduced ... and the countries dumped ), and the action dumped occurs earlier , what's wrong in using " past perfect - had dumped " ? - It is according to the definition of usage of past perfect in manhattan SC.

Similarly in "B" .. the background event is " countries dumping " and the interrupting foreground event is " the agreement reducing what the countries dumping " .. i feel this is also correct according to the usage of past progressive in manhattan SC.

Will you please clarify ..?
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Re: Verb tense & participles [#permalink] New post 17 Mar 2013, 05:56
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A says: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump into the Great Lakes.

see the fact that some rule is to be applied cannot overtake the fact that meaning of the sentence should come out good !!
think for a moment what past perfect is doing here? its like u are asking some country to reduce the amount of something that they had dumped in the past (lets say 100 years ago !!)
can u do that ? obviously no !!
u can only reduce the amount that this country is dumpling at the moment !!
hence A is wrong
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Re: Verb tense & participles [#permalink] New post 17 Mar 2013, 07:59
kabilank87 wrote:
1. A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump into the Great Lakes.

(A) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump
(B) reduced the phosphate amount that municipalities had been dumping
(C) reduces the phosphate amount municipalities have been allowed to dump
(D) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities are allowed to dump
(E) reduces the amount of phosphates allowed for dumping by municipalities

The correct answer is A. Why not B or D ?


IMO, D is the answer.
A used past perfect "had been". This is not needed as no 2 past events are chronologically arranged. Likewise, the usage of past perfect continuous is also not needed in option B.
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Re: Verb tense & participles [#permalink] New post 18 Mar 2013, 08:58
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anandrajakrishnan wrote:
kabilank87 wrote:
1. A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump into the Great Lakes.

(A) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump
(B) reduced the phosphate amount that municipalities had been dumping
(C) reduces the phosphate amount municipalities have been allowed to dump
(D) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities are allowed to dump
(E) reduces the amount of phosphates allowed for dumping by municipalities

The correct answer is A. Why not B or D ?


IMO, D is the answer.
A used past perfect "had been". This is not needed as no 2 past events are chronologically arranged. Likewise, the usage of past perfect continuous is also not needed in option B.


Hi anandrajakrishnan / Neha

In " A " i see the 2 events are chronologically arranged .

By assuming we are in 1972 when the agreement have just passed, we would have told that " The countries have been dumping it for some years blah blanh blah .. and the agreement reduced that( Dumping). The " dumping" started in the past and continues till the agreement came into effect and reduced it. Since it involves 2 different time complex time periods. So i think past perfect / perfect continuous should be used here. But i am not certain about it.
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Re: Verb tense & participles [#permalink] New post 18 Mar 2013, 19:04
kabilank87 wrote:
anandrajakrishnan wrote:
kabilank87 wrote:
1. A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump into the Great Lakes.

(A) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump
(B) reduced the phosphate amount that municipalities had been dumping
(C) reduces the phosphate amount municipalities have been allowed to dump
(D) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities are allowed to dump
(E) reduces the amount of phosphates allowed for dumping by municipalities

The correct answer is A. Why not B or D ?


IMO, D is the answer.
A used past perfect "had been". This is not needed as no 2 past events are chronologically arranged. Likewise, the usage of past perfect continuous is also not needed in option B.


Hi anandrajakrishnan / Neha

In " A " i see the 2 events are chronologically arranged .

By assuming we are in 1972 when the agreement have just passed, we would have told that " The countries have been dumping it for some years blah blanh blah .. and the agreement reduced that( Dumping). The " dumping" started in the past and continues till the agreement came into effect and reduced it. Since it involves 2 different time complex time periods. So i think past perfect / perfect continuous should be used here. But i am not certain about it.


There is a subtle difference in meaning here. Option A changes the meaning to "the agreement reduced the amount of phosphates that munipality has dumped so far". How can the agreement reduce the amount of already dumped phosphate?
Option D gives the meaning outright that "the amount of phosphates that the municipalities were allowed to dump is reduced after the agreement"
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Re: Verb tense & participles [#permalink] New post 18 Mar 2013, 23:05
kabilank87 wrote:
1. A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump into the Great Lakes.

(A) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump
(B) reduced the phosphate amount that municipalities had been dumping
(C) reduces the phosphate amount municipalities have been allowed to dump
(D) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities are allowed to dump
(E) reduces the amount of phosphates allowed for dumping by municipalities

The correct answer is A. Why not B or D ?



anandrajakrishnan,

You are right - How can the agreement reduce the amount of already dumped phosphate?
But the agreement can put a restriction on the amount of phosphate to be dumped.

Moreover, D changes the tense flow of the sentence by the usage of 'are'.
Hope this clarifies.

Regds
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States [#permalink] New post 07 May 2013, 23:26
All duplicate threads on this topic have been merged.

Please read and follow the Guidelines for Posting in Verbal GMAT forum before posting anything.
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduce [#permalink] New post 08 May 2013, 06:15
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rahul wrote:
A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump into the Great Lakes.

(A) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump
(B) reduced the phosphate amount that municipalities had been dumping
(C) reduces the phosphate amount municipalities have been allowed to dump
(D) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities are allowed to dump
(E) reduces the amount of phosphates allowed for dumping by municipalities


Replying to a PM:
I feel the answer is A. It would be good if I get the correct explanation for D to be the answer.
Moreover, I would like to negate some points made about the choice A. In A, actually the agreement is not making any change in the amount already dumped but rather in the amount that was allowed.

Here "had" is acting as double past such that it distinguishes two events. Initially municipal communities were allowed to dump some amount, but as a result of 1972 agreement, that amount has been altered. Please make a note that these events are in past tense.

PS: I have been out of study mode for a while, so please forgive if I commit a mistake.
Alternate explanations are most welcome.
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduce [#permalink] New post 08 May 2013, 06:37
This is an OG (OG12#74) question and explanation by GMAC, without any change, is as follows.

An agreement that occurred in 1972 is correctly described with the past tense verb reduced. Since the dumping continued after the date of the agreement, the past perfect verb had been allowed should instead be the present are allowed (if the agreement remained in effect when the sentence was written) or the past were allowed (if the agreement was no longer in effect when the sentence was written). Since were allowed does not appear in any of the options, we can assume that the correct verb tense is are allowed. The phrase amount of phosphates is clear and idiomatically correct, whereas phosphate amount is not idiomatic.

A) Had been allowed should be are allowed.
B) The phosphate amount should be the amount of phosphates; the omission of some form of allow is incorrect since the agreement changed not the amount dumped, but the amount permitted to be dumped.
C) Present tense reduces should be the past tense reduced; the phosphate amount should be the amount of phosphates; have been allowed should be are allowed.
D) Correct. The past tense reduced is correctly used in this sentence to describe a past action, and the present tense are allowed is used to describe the present situation.
E Present tense reduces should be the past tense reduced; allowed for dumping is an incorrect idiom; allowed for dumping by municipalities is awkward.

The correct answer is D.
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduce [#permalink] New post 08 May 2013, 06:51
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Thanks for the correct explanation.
But I have one issue here. Since the dumping was being done earlier than 1972, so shouldn't it be "had been"? They were allowed to dump some certain quantity before those alterations, hence I feel this way.
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduce [#permalink] New post 08 May 2013, 07:04
To elaborate more on option A:

Where there are two events -- one with past perfect and one with simple past -- past perfect denotes the earlier event and simple past denotes later event. "Had been " is used to mean that earlier event is completed when the later event took place.

The sentence here is implying that the agreement was made at a time after the completion of the action dumping, i.e., when no more dumping is going on. But, that is not possible as nobody makes agreement on reducing something which is not existing.

As "had been" is making the dumping non-existent at the time of agreement, option A is wrong.
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduce [#permalink] New post 08 May 2013, 07:26
Here is another explanation on "had been" vs "are" in this question from Aristotle prep (showing only the relevant part from the explanation):

"In case you are confused whether to go with the past perfect tense ‘had’ or the present tense ‘are’, think about it this way. The sentence already has a simple past tense in ‘reduced’. Now to go with the past perfect tense we must imply that the dumping happened before the agreement ‘reduced’ something. This makes no sense since the dumping continued after the agreement. So we need to go with the present tense verb ‘are’."
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduce [#permalink] New post 08 May 2013, 07:40
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doe007 wrote:
Here is another explanation on "had been" vs "are" in this question from Aristotle prep (showing only the relevant part from the explanation):

"In case you are confused whether to go with the past perfect tense ‘had’ or the present tense ‘are’, think about it this way. The sentence already has a simple past tense in ‘reduced’. Now to go with the past perfect tense we must imply that the dumping happened before the agreement ‘reduced’ something. This makes no sense since the dumping continued after the agreement. So we need to go with the present tense verb ‘are’."


IMO, its clear that the restriction was on the certain pre-decided limit on the amount that was allowed to dump and not on whether dumping was allowed or not. "Had been" implies that something was happening before a certain event. After that event, something other than the previous started happening.

By D, IMO it seems that the alteration was done for the year 2013 onwards and that is why it is using "are".
Isn't that so?
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduce [#permalink] New post 08 May 2013, 09:01
I can understand your logic as well as GMAC's.

My understanding on GMAC's explanation is:
The agreement in 1972 set the allowed amount of phosphates that can be dumped. Now, if that amount is still effective, we need "are". But, if the amount was changed sometime after 1972, we need "were".
In option D, the verb "are" is implying that the limit set by 1972 agreement is still valid.
(Well, we may think that "have been" should be more appropriate here. But, we need to pick with best of the lot as the right answer which may not be perfect sentence.)
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduce [#permalink] New post 08 May 2013, 09:43
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Thi sis a bit tricky question because someone could think that the agreement was done in 72 but curtail something until NOW and from this the right tense is the present.

But the logic is that: before 72 the amout was 100 for instance, after 72 instead was 50 and NOW what is permitted is that 50.

We do not know if this scenario unfolds untill now or in the future or it stops in 2005, for instance.

As such, the most important thing is to figure out the second scenario; that is: the agreement reduced the amount in the past and the countries was permitted to dump this amount

So C and E are out

We need the amount of X so B is out

A and D. A had allowed is wrong doesnt have any sense, is quite clear

So D remains
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduce [#permalink] New post 08 May 2013, 10:51
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carcass wrote:
Thi sis a bit tricky question because someone could think that the agreement was done in 72 but curtail something until NOW and from this the right tense is the present.

But the logic is that: before 72 the amout was 100 for instance, after 72 instead was 50 and NOW what is permitted is that 50.

We do not know if this scenario unfolds untill now or in the future or it stops in 2005, for instance.

As such, the most important thing is to figure out the second scenario; that is: the agreement reduced the amount in the past and the countries was permitted to dump this amount

So C and E are out

We need the amount of X so B is out

A and D. A had allowed is wrong doesnt have any sense, is quite clear

So D remains


This kind of question is tricky, but the answer is always the same. When something occured in the past that made a change, the correct verb tense will always be in the present. The change was made in terms of what we are allowed to now, not in terms of what was done then. There are literally dozens of pages on this question from the past 10 years, but all questions of this type need to have a verb tense in the present. The timeline just doesn't work logically (think Terminator or MiB3) if you keep it this way. To preserve the timeline logic, the verb must be in the present.

Hope this helps!
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduce   [#permalink] 08 May 2013, 10:51
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