LBS and INSEAD vs US Schools

hmm given your scenario I would dig a little deeper. I think what Hailmary said is not all that correct.

If your goal is MBB... there is nearly no other school that matches INSEAD, period. Just look at the placement stats. Similarly, LBS also places incredibly well into MBB. This is on par with US top 5, and far above the 10-20 US rate. I believe MBB is starting to recruit less at Ross, etc.

I would agree that going from EU to US is harder than from US to EU, but that is another issue.

LBS and INSEAD place very well in Europe. So given your scenario, you should take a closer look.

I would agree with Hailmary on assessment of ease of entry to MBB from US school vs. INSEAD/LBS. One issue that employment stats distort is pre-MBA employment. Many of those landing a job in MBB or consulting, are ones who've worked at MBB or consulting before. The difficult to get into consulting from European schools is compounded by the fact there is not internship culture. It makes it more difficult to make a career transition.

Where do you get the idea that there is no internship culture? This is getting more and more odd... I have this feeling that you as well, have not looked at either school. LBS has incredibly strong internship placement...

I believe there are many people who aren't consultants before b-school that go to INSEAD and then on to MBB. All the people who go to MBB post INSEAD were not consultants pre INSEAD. That said, many were. (I don't have the exact numbers but have read them before).

And I see some strengths in having many classmates who are at MBB when you are trying to break in. They might have great advice about interviewing, the cultures at different firms and even different offices, etc. This type of detailed intelligence could be harder to come by at a US top 10-20 school. At INSEAD, there will be tons of people who know all about each potential consulting firm you might be interested in. And they are hiring so many from there it might be easier to get into the mix. This is also partially true because there is no grade disclosure at INSEAD (as far as I understand). At Ross, conversely, you probably have to be an all-star just to get an interview.

Anyway, this is all at least what I am thinking, as someone pursuing INSEAD from the US.

Agreed. There is also a post somewhere that shows INSEAD hires if you strip away the "sponsored" guys. The numbers were still very very high.

Also, I don't really understand the argument. If MBBs are willing to pay for education of their consultants at school X, that means they value school X highly. Why would that deter / hurt recruitment for others? If anything, it is a validation and a boost to your chances. Which in turn.. may explain why so many are hired out of LBS/ INSEAD.
-C

LBS does not place on par with Top 5 US MBA. Look at their employment report: Last year, LBS sent 54 kids to MBB combined. Kellogg, which I consider to be at the bottom of Top5, sent 46 alone to McK and 118 combined to MBB - Kellogg has 479 students in the 2 year MBA program vs 398 at LBS.

Not sure about other schools, but Duke sent around 30 to MBB and no one at Duke was a sponsored student. Same could not be said about LBS since it has few sponsored students in class every year.

I don't know anything about INSEAD to comment, but from what I heard from INSEAD alumni, breaking into MBB is very difficult more so if you don't have a EU visa.

With that said, LBS is a great school which I strongly considered, but considered it on par with Tuck/Duke/Stern. Ultimately, the thought of finding work in US stopped me from applying.

According to Insead's employment report, 130 were non-sponsored students going into MBB in 2012. That's quite solid..!

Speaking as a moderator, please refrain from disparaging remarks to any GMATClub members. GMATClub has a very collaborative and open culture, and we like to keep it that way.

LBS have limited employment stats. For INSEAD,

On the other hand, Fuqua has 95% internship rate, with average monthly salary of $7,405. All top US b-schools have similar stats. Typical duration is 10-12 weeks.

European b-schools, in general, have a shorter program timespan. This in turn makes it more difficult to obtain an internship.

Thanks, guys, for your input. I have a friend at LBS who had a low-ish GPA/GMAT but is interning at BCG London this summer. He's a smart guy for sure, but I also think his story shows the cachet that LBS has in London (BCG actually interviewed him and got to find out how smart he is). I wouldn't say there's no internship culture at LBS. All his classmates are looking for internships.

I'm sure INSEAD has wonderful placement in consulting, but I was a bit worried by the 1-year time limit and the huge class size. I love the international emphasis, though. I think I would fit really well with that (3rd culture kid, avid traveler). I'm worried that the short amount of time would limit the self-reflection and personal growth that sometimes occurs during an MBA, and I wonder how useful a 6 week internship would be compared to a 12 week internship for a career changer.

If I get off the waitlist at Tuck (my #1 choice from the beginning), then this conversation will be moot. I also loved Darden when I visited (I was raised in the south, and had this amazing "coming home" feeling when my plane from NYC landed in Cville). That might end up playing a role as well. For now, I suppose I will just apply and wait till I actually have some admits in hand .

It is my understanding that many people in the December graduating class at INSEAD choose not to do a short internship of a few weeks. They instead travel or relax, in addition to switch campuses. Partially because some aren't worried about recruiting. In the case of an entire summer, even if you are sponsored it makes sense to do something to stay busy.

Don't get me wrong - I still view the solid internship phase of US programs a strength and consider it a weakness for INSEAD. But I think it comes with the nature of short, accelerated nature of program.

INSEAD has an exchange program with Wharton and Kellog. If I attend INSEAD I plan to consider these because I am also interested in my US options post MBA.


BTW, on page 6 of this 2011 INSEAD Consulting Handbook PDF there are numbers for consulting jobs placed. People returning to former employers are also counted separately.

https://www.insead.edu/mba/clubs/consulting/consulting/documents/ICC_Handbook_2011_11J.pdf

220 INSEAD students placed at MBB, with 91 sponsored - I think this easily beats any US program. INSEAD does have a bigger class, but placing 22% at MBB is solid and provides ample room for those students interested in consulting to get in. Also, MBB barely recruits at schools outside the top 6 in the US. They might pick up a few here and there, but it's not a full recruiting cycle like at the top 6 US schools. My opinion is you have a STRONG advantage going to LBS or INSEAD and getting a job at MBB if you aren't getting into M7 in US.

Here is a post from another board on this question.

I won't answer all your questions, but I'll touch on employer rating's a bit. Employment stats are really important, because this is a show of where the employers are putting their money. In the end, if an employer says "this is a great school" but would not hire student en masse from that school, then that says something about how that school is really perceived. Employment numbers speaks loudly, imo.

INSEAD isn't only "slightly" stronger in consulting. INSEAD is a jauggernaught in MC of its own right. When it comes to MBB placement, no school in the world surpasses INSEAD. In 2010, INSEAD placed 24% of it's class into MBB (44% into MC generally, if you begin including Booz, AT Kearney, L.E.K., Roland Berger etc...). INSEAD's representation in management consulting is not "slightly" stronger than LBS, it's quite a bit stronger. To put this into perspective, by pure numbers, INSEAD easily places more students with MBB than Columbia, Tuck, Berkeley, Chicago, Duke, and Michigan... combined.

Disclaimer: this dominance is quite substantial and can be misleading, and that is why I feel compelled to say this: in Europe only. So if you want to do MC in the US, you're definitely fishing in the wrong pond. Also, it's impossible to figure out whether the dominance is because the school makes mediocre people into great candidates, or the school admit people who are great candidates for MC to begin with, but that's the stats as they stand. This phenomena might also be a function of the student body's interest generally. But still, it could also be a function of great on-campus case-interview training and alumni connection. The problem? You'll never know why, but if MC is your dream, better safe than sorry, and nothing safer than INSEAD in Europe.

For finance, LBS is definitely stronger than INSEAD. In 2010, LBS placed 6 students with Barclay Capital, INSEAD placed 8. LBS placed 4 with Goldman Sachs, INSEAD placed 6. LBS placed 4 with UBS, INSEAD placed 6. LBS placed 5 with Credit Suisse, INSEAD placed 5. LBS placed 5 with Deustche Bank, INSEAD placed 3. INSEAD doesn't place many with BAML, whereas LBS placed 3. LBS, on the other hand, doesn't place many with Morgan Stanley, whereas INSEAD placed 5.

NOTE: INSEAD is a little under 3x the size of LBS. So though some of the numbers on the INSEAD side are larger, if it's not at least double, it's not matching by percentage. That is why I would say LBS dominates, at least in terms of industry representation.

INSEAD rules management consulting in Europe. LBS is strong in finance. But going to INSEAD won't kill your dreams for finance. Neither will going to LBS kill your dreams for management consulting (11% of LBS get jobs with MBB, which is, on a percentage basis, stronger than Columbia, Wharton, Chicago, and Tuck).

Hey, this is great info. Do you have information on non-EU student placement stats? It would be nice to know if INSEAD's placements for EU is mostly for EU grads.

In terms of getting into MBB there are a few things to think about:

1. MBB are now looking at a minimum GMAT when conducting internship interviews (I see that the original poster had a 750 which isn't an issue, but I'm throwing it out there for the rest of you).
2. Age matters - they don't want a 32 year old guy coming in as a first year associate (although there are exceptions)
3. Nationality matters - depending on how strong a candidate you are - the firm will be more or less likely to deal with visa issues. In Germany it is super easy to get a work visa - in France it is a pain in the *ss. Your nationality relative to the location you want to work in is a factor.
4. The people you meet with in person are the ones most likely to hire you - it is a lot harder to meet with the NYC team and then get placed in London - simply because the London team has their own candidates (who they have met with and like already).
5. There is a location hierarchy. Getting an associate role at McK Dallas is easier than at McK New York etc. etc.

These 5 points also apply to top IB and PE jobs.

Leah Derus
fxmbconsulting.com

Just to add my two cents here. I've been admitted to INSEAD and had the chance to talk to different recently graduated alumni about their perception on MBB recruiting, and at least for those coming from my own country in Latin America, the process might be a little different from what Leah described above.
Firstly, there was no minimum GMAT required; ALL people who wanted to interview for my country's offices were interviewed (of course they did their homework regarding resumes, cover letters, networking, etc). My friend had first-round interviews with all 3 of them, with no previous consulting experience and a 650 GMAT. That is a fact. Though that might be because there aren't as many people applying to my country's offices, when compared to EU and US offices.
Secondly, the age aspect might not play such a big role in European schools. Average age at INSEAD is 29, with LOTS of people in their 30's. For example, from my nationality alone, there are maybe 2 or 3 people under 28, in a total of 22. Younger candidates are usually from Asia and the US, lots of 24, 25 and 26yo folks from China and India. And since those nationalities represent a big chunk of Insead's population, they tend to bring the average a little lower. Many of those "oldies" do get into MBB all over the world. If age was such a huge issue, MBB would be better off not recruiting at Insead at all, lot of older people there (including yours truly).
That being said, I agree with Leah regarding nationalities and office proximity. If you do not have citizenship or a work permit, it might be tougher for you, once there are a lot of qualified candidates who might not have those issues. And I think it's obvious that if you have the chance to have face-to-face time with people from your office of choice, your chances improve. In my case, partners from my country's MBB offices go to Insead to recruit and conduct networking events and first round interviews, so the distance does not affect the process at all.

Well, I know the guy who started this thread already made his decision and went to Ross. But I thought it might be useful to share this information here for folks who might need it.

bizwiz

You have to look at the situation holistically. If the office location you are looking at is not as competitive then you can bend the rules on some of the other factors. In terms of getting into the McK office in NYC....a 720/30 GMAT is usually part of their screening process.