Hey there halpmeh,
Congratulations on being admitted to two fantastic schools! First off, I know that whichever school you choose, it sounds like you’ll do great and thrive.
I’m currently a student at SOM and would love to provide some insight and address some of your concerns.
Through Dean Snyder’s stewardship, the entire school has been reinvigorated and everybody is excited about that. One of his three pillars is exactly as you said – to be the business school most integrated with its parent university – and we’re continuing to wing our way to this – among the highest percentage of joint-degree candidates of any B-School, nearly a majority of second year students taking classes outside of SOM at any one time, welcoming more and more students from other graduate and professional schools and the Yale College undergrads into our classes. We’re thrilled about all of this and it helps address one of your points – concern about a smaller alumni body. Yes, as you see our smaller student body as a positive, the result of this is a relatively smaller alumni network. However, we are able to work with and capitalize off of the greater Yale University network – for instance, my boss in my internship and I formed an instant bond because he went to Yale College and I’m at SOM. I know that there’s a great network at CBS, but I can personally vouch for the fact that SOM’s network quickly transcends just the School of Management and extends to all corners of our campus.
I can’t speak too much to your decision in undergrad, but I’ve been pleasantly surprised about how much I’ve come to enjoy New Haven – If I remember correctly, it has among the highest number of restaurants per capita. You mention that you might not feel safe – and I completely understand that. It’s frequently cited as one of the biggest drawbacks of any post-industrial city. Fortunately, campus security is extraordinarily accessible, and I’ve always felt safe on the Yale busses. I feel completely fine walking on campus between the academic buildings and what’s extremely convenient is the door-to-door service that is complementary to all students between 6pm and 6am. I think what’s important to consider, is that New Haven is just like any big city – there are places you’ll feel safe, and other places you’ll want to be extra judicious in and places that you might want to avoid after nightfall – just like in New York, just like in San Francisco, just like in Los Angeles. What’s doubly fortunate is that if you do continue to crave that bigger city life, NYC and Boston are just one Metro North or Amtrak ride away.
In terms of prestige for recruiters, I’d like to respectfully push back against your comments. SOM has consistently ranked among the highest business schools with their reputation with recruiters, and SOM, by percentage, places students on par with other B-Schools. SOM has among the highest number of students going into Consulting and we’re equally strong with IB. What many folks look at are numbers, and that is a function of the smaller class size (see infra). If you’re interested in social entrepreneurship, SOM is consistently ranked at the top of the lists for this industry. Now I always take rankings with a grain of salt – I recall from a paper I read: By compressing a complex review to a single number, we implicitly assume that the product quality is one-dimensional, whereas economic theory (see, for example, Rosen 1974) tells us that products have multiple attributes and different attributes can have different levels of importance to consumers. Tastes for product attributes tend to vary across individuals. That being said, SOM is the nexus for a lot of thought leadership around the public sector and philanthropy with academic luminaires in the field and we’re really proud of that. If you wanted to go into a more quant-y field, SOM definitely has that as well, as we’re known for our International Center for Finance and behavioral finance faculty. Taking classes and having access to leaders in fields such as Tim Geithner, Robert Shiller, and David Swenson along with the flexibility of taking the classes you want empowers you to direct your course of study.
Hmm, I’m actually a bit surprised that you hear that SOM is so academically focused. While that is definitely a priority for students, recruiting is prioritized equally if not more for most students. Just like CBS did in 2011, SOM has had a long history of grade-nondisclosure which allows students to take risks academically, and also prioritize their b-school experience. If you have anything below a High Honors or Honors, you don’t disclose your grades and the grades don’t appear on your transcript. While 10% must be ranked in the bottom two categories, it does not mean that there is a minimum number of students that have to fail – just that they have to get a Pass, which, beyond personal feedback, is indistinguishable to any party from a proficient. As long as you try and show effort, you will do well – and can (as most do) prioritize recruiting. While, yes missing class is frowned upon, some professors are flexible and willing to chat if you need to be accommodated. Finally, because class doesn’t meet on most Fridays, you should be very able to travel. I’m sorry to hear that you got such an incorrect impression of Academics at SOM and I’ll be sure to let the folks in Admissions know that this was a concern of yours, so thank you so much for the feedback.
I can’t speak to CBS’s student body as I know only a very few students there, but I’m sure that you’d fine a group of friends and classmates who aren’t douchy. That being said, I hope that you were able to attend Welcome Weekend and experience the SOM community and student body – the collegial atmosphere, how everybody is a little geeky and goofy – in a great way – and how we all come together at the end of the day, sealed the deal for me and I don’t regret my decision to attend SOM any day of the year. Making friends from entirely different backgrounds is frictionless because of the students that self-select coming to SOM.
Let us know if you have any questions – I’m happy to jump on a call if you’d prefer that. Again, whatever decision you make, I’m sure you’ll do well. I want to just provide you as much information as I can, so you can make the best informed decision possible.
I'd want to reaffirm DCTech17's words: "Good luck with the decision, and no matter what the poll says in the end just remember there are three things that only you can figure out; (1) school that will put you on the career course you want to be on; (2) classmates that are smarter/more interesting/more passionate than you (not in the social climbing way, in the inspiring way); and (3) a place where you will be happy." Well said sir.
Best of luck – you’ll do great,
Dan ‘16
halpmeh wrote:
Hey guys, really long below but I was typing all this out to myself to clear my head and thought I would ask for your opinions here. Been really tortured over this in recent weeks.
Any advice dearly welcome!!! I'm a career switcher hoping to move from consulting into social enterprise, but keeping an open mind about post-grad career options so don't want to pigeonhole myself into *just* social enterprise yet.
Yale SOM
Yale, I fell in love with you from the moment I set foot in...side you. I die for your Gothic architecture and old-New-England-y charm, your tweedy professors with horn-rimmed glasses, how integrated you are with the rest of the university - drama classes, law school classes, music classes, design classes, computer science... branching out into the rest of the university isn't just accepted, it's the norm. I love how your students blend academic smarts, often from Ivy/top liberal arts undergrads and from highly quantitative backgrounds, with a desire to change the world. They're not just interested in making money - they truly want to use their business education to improve workforces and societies. There's a goofy, geeky, earnest sincerity to your student body and even classes that I ADORE. While SOM itself might not be as well-known globally and your network may be small, the Yale name = instant credibility - important to me since I went to a tiny, lesser-known undergrad and aspire to an international career. Your new building is absolutely gorgeous, yet your student body is still small enough that you can actually have meaningful conversations, dinners even, with visiting luminaries. On the financial side, you're giving me a pretty sweet scholarship, already a resume-booster before even starting b-school. I know I'll develop meaningful relationships with a close-knit group of peers and professors - and hey, if even they get a little boring, New York is just a couple hours' train ride away and an easy weekend trip.
Oh, not to mention you're the #1-ranked school in my main interest: social enterprise. And multiple people from the company I'm most interested in, a save-the-world tech giant, have said they'd pick you over Columbia purely because of your collaborative, creative culture. Overall rankings don't seem to have dented your recruiting from what I can tell from alumni chats and extensive LinkedIn stalking. Plus, I love that alumni I've contacted have taken literally an hour out of their busy schedule to chat with me about how fantastic you are. PLUS, I love your international-trips focus and the fact that you dole out $600 to students for each trip - especially compared to the ¨hey, this trip'll cost you $2500!¨ Columbia addendums.
The dark side:
- Am I really picking a top-15-ish school over a top-5-ish one, with a tiny network as opposed to a huge one - when b-school is supposedly all about the network and wide connections you'll make?
- Back in undergrad, I made the decision to attend a tiny idealistic New England school in a crappy, unsafe town over Columbia, and regretted it every time I visited friends at Columbia, and *craved* city life and its independence. Am I going to be repeating history?
- Do I really want to live somewhere where I basically can't leave my house after like 10pm on foot (need to wait around for the shuttle as opposed to say, walking alone downtown or to the library)?
- I live for city life - the food, the energy, the easy accessibility. Can I really pick New Haven over New York, IN ADDITION to picking what's (apparently) seen as less prestigious to recruiters in general?
- If I decide not to do social enterprise and want to switch into something more traditionally corporate instead, maybe I'd be seen as less competent compared to going to Columbia (a more traditionally high-ranked/¨harder skills¨ school). As someone from a ¨softer¨ English-major-y background, I feel like I can use all the quant-y/finance-y training I can get.
- You seem sooo academically focused to the point where it might be detrimental to recruiting - like, one *cannot* miss much class and now there's a forced curve which would negatively affect the bottom 10% of the class. Ergh. For me, the main point of b-school will ultimately be job placement after, so this whole can't-miss-class, forced-curve, grade-disclosure business seems high schoolish and unappealing. This would've been a way easier decision a couple years ago, when grade non-disclosure was still in place.
- I love spontaneous travel and want to do a fair amount of it during b-school, but the location and super-strong academic focus seem somewhat prohibitive to this (apart from 1-2 big school trips per year as part of the Global Network Week/International Experience).
Columbia
Columbia, I've loved you for years - well, your undergrad/non b-school departments, anyway. A huge number of dear friends and relatives have a Columbia connection, so I grew up around Columbians I loved; in college you were my home away from home, the one I really should have chosen. Butler Library sends a thrill through me. I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE New York. You have a truly incredible range of classes centered around social enterprise, coding, creating your own social venture, etc etc - way more class offerings specific to my business interests than Yale, actually (ironic since the latter is famed for social enterprise, but I guess not surprising since Columbia's bigger). Your prestige and location means a constant stream of high-profile business leaders passing through and giving talks. Your professors are astounding - Stiglitz, Adam Galinsky, Emi Nakamura - I've listened to their Youtube videos over and over again and would LOVE to take their classes. Deepak Chopra taught a block-week course last year on doing good while doing business (my main interest)!! Your social enterprise dept. is growing, apparently - bolstered by an apparently big donation earlier this year. While your parent university isn't quite as dreamy/prestigious as Yale (from my possibly biased humanities-ish perspective), you're still a huge name internationally with a massive network. Based on size and international placement, you'll likely open far more doors than Yale - as evidenced in part by the crazy alumni connections which show up during Chazen trips (president of Lotte, Nandos, etc.).
Perhaps most importantly - your entire program seems centered around helping students get placed in their dream jobs, which is my #1 priority in b-school (as opposed to just being there for the social experience). Your special block-week classes and grade non-disclosure allow for during-school internships; as a career-switcher, this could be key for me in getting experience prior to summer internship interviews. Also, hey, I've worked hard these past years and want to relax - I want the kind of environment where if I want to miss a couple classes to interview places or even just to travel, it's not going to ruin my resume/academic standing. Columbia seems like the ideal mix of a.) loving my classes and b.) not being beholden to attending every. single. one.
The dark side:
- Why do so many of your students seem like such insufferable douchebags?! I've pored through their Instagrams, Facebooks and LinkedIn profiles, desperately trying to find someone I would want to get to know; I've come up with like, four (dubious) people out of literally hundreds. Most of the people I know who ended up going there are relentless social-climber types who aren't particularly intelligent - though I will say I know a sprinkling of quite cool (if not incredibly inspirational, like at Yale) people who also attended. Everything from your Orientation to your Fall Galas/other events seems infused with obnoxious frattiness, neon, shrieking and binge-drinking. I've done the whole frat-party thing in undergrad - not into repeating the experience.
- Also, why are you SO absurdly expensive?? How do you seriously have the nerve to charge $290 for taking language courses within the University, something you advertised during info sessions as free to students and their spouses? Your student classes culminating in trips are like $1800-2400 for six nights NOT including air travel?? You're notoriously stingy with student aid (pouring all your funds into a new building I won't be there for, apparently) and I was no exception there. Yes, your classes and study trips are once-in-a-lifetime awesome, but it leaves a really bad taste in my mouth how you seem to delight in overcharging at every step - especially for a school with so many banker/mogul alumni and relatively large endowment.
- Your building is notoriously ugly/tiny, and your Dean is literally like some kind of evil movie villain - as I think many students recognize, given numerous Follies videos making fun of him. Not going to b-school for the facilities or the Dean, but... bears thinking about, esp. in comparison to Yale (fabulous building/adorable turnaround-genius Dean Snyder).
CAVEAT: I *really* want to be wrong on my judgment of CBS students' douchiness - there MUST be inspirational, awesome people there given the large class size - so would love to hear from people saying otherwise.
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06 May 2015, 10:37
, but I have a ton of good friends at SOM who have loved their time there.
