Calling all US Military Fall 2014 Applicants!

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I would use Wisconsin as a fallback as opposed to your plan "A". Take a look at other mid-western heavyweights like Kellogg, Booth, and Ross. Depending on what you score on the GMAT, you may land a scholarship that would make UW less appealing. If you get no scholarships and decide you don't want to light $150K on fire, you can always go to Wisconsin.

FYI - I got a full-ride to Johnson and my GPA sucks compared to yours, plus my GMAT is pretty pedestrian.

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Hi everyone, I'm a bit off for the target demographic in this thread since I am still in undergrad (senior in AFROTC). However, I do want to get an MBA in the future after my service so I have spent plenty of time during my summer break to research different aspects of this path.

At this point, I am at a crossroads on choosing what job to do in the Air Force, and with that, the service obligations that come with the career fields. I have already received my pilot candidate slot but I am looking at different career paths as well. My background is in Aerospace Engineering at a top public school. If you guys/gals can offer some insight and advice, I would greatly appreciate it.

1. Should I just go through and commission with a pilot slot or go into an Engineering/Space Ops/Program Management path? However, the service obligation is 10 years + training (11-12 years before I would be able to separate) for pilot while it is only 4 years for the others.

2. Does the extra bump in prestige of being a pilot have an effect on Top B-School admissions?

3. Does age matter as a military applicant? If I do pilot, I will be about 34-35 y/o compared to 27-28.

4. With the experience and wisdom that you now have after your service and after having gone through business school, what would you have done if you were in my shoes?

I would like to thank everyone in advance for any advice they may have for me. This site has been such an invaluable resource about business school in general.

I'll address each question in a minute, but first things first...

I think you're putting the cart ahead of the horse a bit, and it's not going to help you get into a good school down the road. If you've yet to commission and you're already planning your exit strategy from the military, it makes it sound like the military isn't what you really want to do. Entering the officer ranks with your eyes already on "bigger and better" things is a disservice to the airmen you'll lead and isn't likely to result in you being a standout performer during your 4+ years.

Aside from the basics like GPA and GMAT, the main thing that top MBA programs want is people who have demonstrated outstanding performance relative to their peers and who (as such) have shown the potential to go on and do great things in the business world. That level of performance, as well as finding people willing to write strong recommendation letters, can't be faked.

That being said:

1. Go into the AFSC that you're most interested in and that you're most likely to do well in. If you pick a job that makes you miserable, you're not likely to perform well which means you're going to have a hard time talking about your outstanding performance when it comes time to write application essays.

2. No...see my answer to #1. The ~45 veterans in my HBS class covered pretty much every branch of service and every MOS/warfare community in the US military, in addition to the handful of foreign vets we had. The only "bump" to be had is from doing well in your assigned billets, and demonstrating high potential for future business leadership.

3. Yes and no. Business schools can't (for legal reasons) discriminate based on age, but it's not too difficult to see what the age distribution bell curve looks like in a graphic like this: https://blog.militarytobusiness.com/2011/10/harvard-age-curve-part-iii.html

There is a "sweet spot" for MBA admissions and it generally ranges from 25-27 years old at matriculation. I turned 30 at the beginning of my first year at HBS, and that put me in the oldest 8-10% of my class. Now there are a few different factors at play on a chart like that--namely, that your average civilian applicant is going to have 2-3 years of work experience vs. the 4-5 years (minimum) that a military applicant will have. Non-vets at business school tend to be on the younger side, because the top performers out of top undergrad schools tend to get jobs and the most prestigious firms, then the top performers at McKinsey and Goldman and Apple and GE get fast-tracked to go to business school early on, so if someone hits the 5 year mark as a consultant yet hasn't gone to business school it's probably because they're a sub-par performer....sorta like if someone hits the 4 year mark in the military and is still an E-2. Top schools want to grab the top applicants early on, rather than have them go to law school or elsewhere...this was a big part of the reasoning behind HBS starting the 2+2 program a few years ago.

You also have to account for the fact that very few people are applying at 30+ years old. Fewer applicants means fewer admissions, even if they're admitted at roughly the same rate. At 30+ years old people tend to get more risk-averse and less willing to take a two year break from earning to go to school with people a lot younger than they are.

There were a few vets in my class who were 32-34 years old at matriculation, but not many. I can think of a few reasons to explain those numbers. First, once someone reaches the 10 year mark in the military it gets hard to walk away from a decent paycheck, opportunity to command, get medical care for your family, and retirement not too far down the road. Most of the older vets I know at HBS and elsewhere were pilots who separated as soon as their commitment was up--I was definitely a minority in that I served 2 years past my initial 5 year commitment.

The really difficult thing I would point out about applying at 34-35 years old is that you may find it a bit harder to find internships and jobs. Once again, companies can't legally hire based on age, but the reality is that you'll be competing for the same jobs (and salaries) as your 27 year old banker classmates, as well as your 30 year old vet classmates. You won't get any boost out of the fact that you got out as an O-4 rather than an O-2, and you'll have to deal with the fact that your first boss will probably be younger and less experienced than you. If your personality indicates any resistance to that kind of adjustment, a company isn't going to hire you. You've also gotta keep in mind the opportunity cost of those extra years you spent in the military--meaning that if you're a 35 year old rookie at a particular company, the other 35 year olds likely have 8-10 years of experience in that industry and/or company. You'll have a lot of catching-up to do.

4. Focus on being the best (whatever AFSC you choose) officer you can. Ignore the business school thing for the next 2 years, unless you decide to go ahead and get the GMAT out of the way since a score is good for 5 years. Then when you're about 2-3 years out from the end of your service commitment, start worrying about the application process.

I'll give you a little more benefit of the doubt than EBM because when I entered active duty I knew I wasn't going to be a 20 year career person. I didn't know at the time that I would get out after my first assignment and go to business school but I knew I had ambitions outside the military. I faced the same choice as your number 1 (except I was an ME major) and I decided to go with Acquisitions and commissioned as a 63A. I knew that would give me the most flexibility to decide what I wanted to do with my career. I went right into my job and threw myself into it and did nothing but work for the first 2.5 years. Then when my ADP starting coming due and I had to hunt for new assignments I had to make a choice. I decided to take the GMAT and start applying to schools. Nobody has ever questioned why I'm not a prestigious pilot; in fact during my interviews people are often more interested to hear about the cool systems I was involved with developing as a Program Manager.

EBM covered the age part in detail so I won't really bother with that. Either way do what you will be interested in, both career fields have pros and cons. Pilot the pros are pretty obvious but the cons, in addition to service commitment, you have to remember you have no guarantee of air-frame and could be stuck in 10 years of RPAs. Acquisitions you could have a really cool program to work on and a good boss who will give you enough room to actually do good things. Or you could get stuck on a crappy project in a bad location where you don't have much responsibility. Unfortunately both of them are kind of luck of the draw when you first commission so you have to decide what you want.

For me, I enjoyed my time and what I got to work on. If I went back I would do it the same way again.

Rereading my post I can see that I came off as a bit abrasive--that wasn't my intention at all. Obviously everyone who goes into the military isn't going to do 20+ years....nor could they, given the way the pyramid gets narrow in a hurry. And plenty of people enter the military knowing that they're unlikely to serve past their initial commitment.

I was in the opposite boat...growing up I thought that all I wanted to do was be a Marine for 30 years, then about 5 years into it I realized I wanted to do something else. So my perspective is a bit skewed compared to where others may be coming from.

I guess the point I was trying to make was, whether you end up getting out after 4 years or staying past 20, you'll maximize your odds of long-term success by devoting your full attention to doing the best job you can at wherever you're currently assigned rather than looking ahead too much. Looking too far beyond your current job isn't likely to help.

EBM and mappleby, thank you both so much for the post. I appreciate both of your insights and perspectives.

It was not my intention to paint a picture that I did not want to be in the military at all. Being a naturalized citizen, I am grateful to have been given the chance to live and grow up in this country with opportunities that would not have been available to me before. For that, I wanted to say thank you to the country that has given me so much by serving in it's military, even for just a few years. Be assured that I will do the best I can in any job that I am assigned in and quoting a wise officer, "bloom where you are planted." I suppose I started planning my "exit strategy" before I even got in due to my perfectionist/obsessive personality. I like to "plan" out my life in the future, even though I know it could totally end up in a different trajectory; but just knowing where I am going is very important to me.

I guess I was just disillusioned by the pilot-driven culture of the AF and at this point, I still am. I wanted to do something exciting during my service and be proud to say to my grandchildren that I was a pilot in the World's Greatest Air Force. That is not to say that there aren't any "thrilling" career fields in the AF, which I know there are, but to each his own.

I apologize for the long post but I just wanted to say thank you both. I still have to do a bit more soul searching, since it will be ultimately up to me to get the most out of my time in the Air Force, be it 10+ years or 4 years.

https://apply.hbs.edu/register/mpsd

Registration is open for the Military Prospective Students' Day at HBS on September 27. If you're planning to apply to HBS in R2/R3 (or next year) it would be worth your time to attend. Lots of good information and opportunities to ask whatever questions you have to student veterans.

I'm going to pile in here with my classmate EBM. I was one of the (few) USAF guys in our class, also an old guy, and was aircrew (but not a pilot) so feel like I have a dog in this fight.

My advice to nearly anyone going into the military would be to seek out a job that (1) you're going to love, but also (2) that's as close as possible to the fight. In many--but certainly not all--cases in the USAF officer corps that means being a pilot.

Maybe you could elaborate a little bit on what you mean by "the pilot driven culture." Answering that question may help steer you some.

Finally, I'm going to agree that thinking about b-school at this point may not be the best use of your time. In the very least, notwithstanding a possible RIF, you're going to be in for a minimum of four years. Take the first few just to work your ass off. For time periods after that, a good piece of advice I received from an old timer is to always be ready to be one year away from getting out, and one year away from staying in. Do everything you have to do (PME, GMAT, the "right assignments," etc) so that should you *have* to stay in, or should Uncle Sugar decide that your services are no longer needed, you're in the best possible position for you, your family, and your career.

Hey so1id,

I just separated from the AF after 7 years as an engineer/program manager. I'm now a first year at Haas pursuing entrepreneurship. I faced many of the questions that you did when I was in AFROTC, though luckily (in hindsight) some of the decisions were made for me since I had some vision issues.

The main recommendation I have for you is to figure out what you want to do in life. What are you trying to get out of an MBA program? Do you see the MBA as a career accelerant (i.e. help you progress in the Air Force) or as a means to switch careers (i.e. transition out of the service into civilian life). I'm assuming it's the latter since you're concerned about service obligations.

I'd definitely recommend thinking about your short-term and long-term goals and evaluating whether the MBA is helpful in achieving those goals. The MBA is simply a means to achieving those goals and not the end state. You'll find during the application process that most schools are very interested in what you plan to do with your MBA (i.e. you need to tell a credible story of how the MBA will help you achieve your goals). While people are certainly free to change their career goals from what they wrote in their application essays, you do need to have a pretty solid plan of what you want to do when you get to school. For example, I just completed my first week at Haas and the Career Management Staff is already telling prospective consultants and i-bankers that the internship recruiting process has already started for them.

So, if you have a pretty clear idea of what you would rather be doing professionally and it doesn't include staying in the Air Force and it requires an MBA for you to make the transition, then I would pick the AFSC with the shortest service commitment; anecdotally speaking, plenty of AF guys with 62/63 AFSCs are able to get into top MBA programs. Also, if I were in your shoes, I'd be very hesitant to pick up an 11+ year service commitment if I wasn't absolutely passionate about flying (or remotely piloting).

Lastly, don't tailor your life just so you can make yourself more competitive for b-school. Do things that you're genuinely interested in.

Hey, thanks everyone for all the very helpful info on this forum. Been poring through here a while now (also checked out the post-mil HBS blog, thanks for that) and hoped I could jump in / solicit any advice/feedback anyone might have.

Been doing healthcare admin w/USAF past 5 years and am at a crossroads for whether I get MBA thru the AF (AD pay/benefits thru school but ostensibly commit to 20 years) or separate / GI Bill.

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Funny, I typed out all the stuff I've been considering, but it occured to me most of those questions I've seen addressed in various lights on this forum... so perhaps the root struggle I'm having is whether "the grass has turned out greener" for the post-mil MBAs? To try making that *not* a loaded question, thought I'd try to summarize my thoughts in case it resonates w/anyone:

1. Enjoy military "being part of something bigger than a profit machine" vs. frustrated by the bureaucracy & often lack of clear/common goal (i.e., being a profit machine)?
2. Sort of enjoy running circles around colleagues/superiors and being comfortable with rank/structure vs. frustrated by working with folks who only want a paycheck with minimal effort and/or anxious my colleagues in the private sector will be running circles around me (since I've been "sheltered" the past 5 years?)
3. Enjoy/proud of helping my enlisted folks vs. wondering if at Lt Col as I'm disciplining some drunk E-3 at 2AM whether I'll envy an MBA who's working with IT gurus on a new electronic health record or something...?
4. Can anyone speak to - for once you started your MBA - whether you ended up saying "Wow, these people/ideas/opportunities are _____, I wish I'd stayed in / gotten out!"

In case it's helpful answering/relating, my top picks would be Haas/Foster/Mays (West/SW desired) and, cause life's funny like that, I'm weighing all this while my wife's also an AF nurse (and 6 months pregnant!).

Thus, needless to say, any gut check / advice would be most appreciated!

I got out of the Navy after 10.5 years and don't regret it one bit. At the end of the day for me, I wanted to choose where I wanted to live and what I wanted to do. Two things I never got to do in the Navy. Granted I just started my MBA and there's no guarantee I'll get one of my top choice companies, but at least I'll get a chance, and if they go with the other guy, so be it. It's not like the military where you're a rank and serial number that they cut orders for.

Any reason you wouldn't take a look at Anderson?

Guys,

My name is Brady Dolim and I'm serving as the VP of Admissions for the Darden Military Association this year. I spent five years in the Army as an intelligence officer. I'd like to offer up any support I can in helping each of you as you make transition. There is already a lot of good content on here. The resources that I found most helpful while going through this process two years ago were as follows:
1. Military to Business blog
2. Essay Snark's website
3. The MBA Reality Check by Evan Forster and David Thomas

Please let me know if I or Cheryl Jones, the Military Admissions Point of Contact, can assist in any way.

Disclaimer: I'm currently applying to school, so I haven't actually seen the other side.

I'm getting out after my initial 4-year contract. Almost exactly a year ago, I decided to go for an MBA after debating for 4 months over whether to stay in the military, get out and start working, or go to school. I won't get into the work vs school dilemma, so these are the reasons why I decided to leave the military:

-I joined the military in the first place to go to Iraq/Afghanistan, not necessarily to do 20 years. I was fortunate to deploy to Afghanistan shortly after I hit the operating forces. After I returned, though, garrison duties just didn't provide the sense of fulfillment I got from my deployment. The bureaucracy/lack of clear goal was definitely frustrating, and it won't get better any time soon.
-After my 4-year initial contract, I'd be sent to the supporting establishment for my next tour of duty. None of the supporting establishment tours excited me. I wasn't even excited to return to the operating forces as a company commander -- to me, it just seemed like more of the same in garrison. MilitaryToBusiness has a great blog post with a graph showing the level of responsibility a military officer holds over his/her career. I didn't want to spend my second 4 years stagnating somewhere.
-I never want to live in a military town again.

One thing I will miss, though, is the camraderie. There's nothing like debating zombie apocalypse plans for 2 hours while you're sitting in the middle of the desert. I'll probably never be able to experience the same sense of purpose I got on my deployment, but that might not have happened if I stayed in the military either. Hope this helps.

Like CobraKai I am also just starting school so take my opinion with a grain of salt. I got out after just under 5 years active duty Air Force and I don't regret it for a minute. I worked with some cool people and I got to be a part of technology and activities I would never see outside of the military. If I went back in time I would still do ROTC and serve in the AF, I loved many aspects of it. However there was a lot I didn't like and I have interests/ambitions I could never pursue while in the military. I am happy to have served, I learned a lot from it, but I am ready for a new chapter in my life.

I attended your military open house last year and loved it. I'm applying to Darden R1 this year. I have some military buddies that I'm trying to interest in Darden, but I haven't seen the military open house pop up this year. Did they already miss it?

I just wanted to introduce my self and say thank you for all the great information here. It's incredibly comforting to know that there's other veterans/ad guys out there trying to conquer the GMAT / B-School process. It's good to know I'm not alone =)

I separated from the Army a couple years ago and have been finishing my undergrad for Marketing Communications in Chicago. I was Army enlisted as a Public Affairs specialist and was in for about six and a half years. I'll be finishing my degree with about a 3.8/3.9 out of 4.0 GPA and will have two years of professional work experience at a marketing consulting firm when I graduate next fall.

I've been wondering if I'll get hit for not having more 'professional' civilian world business experience, or if they'll take my military service into account. Anyone have experience with this kind of thing?

Anyway, it's great to be part of gmatclub and it's awesome that there's a strong military community here. If any of you end up at Booth in Chicago let me know, the first drink is on me.