University of St.Gallen (HSG) MBF 2014 intake

Snowden, I wanted to ask you one more thing. You mentioned that it is nearly impossible to finish the program in 3 semesters, but yet the program is advertised as a 3 - semester one. Why do you think this is the case ? Actually, what % of the incoming class actually manage to graduate withing 3 semesters ?

Hi Ivan91,

I stand by my statement, it is quite difficult to finish the course in 3 semesters for 3 main reasons, there are several minor details but i wont get into it:
1] Supplementary courses https://www.unisg.ch/en/Studium/Zulassun ... leistungen
2] Negative credits https://www.unisg.ch/en/Studium/Master/A ... ungssystem
3] Master Thesis https://www.unisg.ch/en/Studium/Master/B ... tersThesis

read the links and let me know if you have any further questions.

I dont have the number of people graduating/not graduating in 3 sems. May be you can ask the admissions office. But personally in all my interactions with my seniors, I am yet to come across somebody who is going to complete the course in 3 sems

-Snowden

Hi snowden.

Thank you very much for the help in the forum.

I really appreciate your insights.

I am wondering how many exams will they assign to me as supplementary work coming from a masters in engineering?

How many semesters will I need?

My career goal is to work in IB.

However, I have not a strong preference on the job location. Of course, I would like to work in London.

In case of admission, I will spend the summer in a German-speaking country and start learning German.

By the way, I am not certain I will reach the fluent level needed to work there.

Am I on the right path?

Thank you very much for your help.

Looking at the university website, the number of supplementary modules to take depends on the number of business courses in your bachelors/undergrad. If you have zero academic history with economics/accounting/finance, you might have to take a lot of courses - maybe up to 40-60 credits worth or more.
You probably will not have a problem with the Maths required for the course but it might take longer for you to complete the degree.

number of supplementary credits AFAIK can range from 0-60.
Since you are from non-business/eco/commerce background, i would guess it to be 60.

coming to semesters. the right question is how many semesters you have or afford to have
jokes apart. you have only 1 semester to pass the supplementaries, this implies you will not be doing any core electives in 1st sem. this also implies that you cannot do many core electives in 2nd sem either because most mbf core electives have compulsories as the pre-requisites. Long story short. i would say you would take a minimum of 4- max 6 semesters.

you want to work in IB. ok. as what? please be very very clear on this. because only if you know this, you can plan your course 'track' here at HSG. else it will become diffused energy.

your location indiferrence is a plus, cant comment much though.

i am sure that if you are starting from 0 then you are right , you will not reach fluency enough to work here.

are you on the right path?
hmm i can only give data and my personal experiences and opinions. the final deciscion and the risk is always on you. Read and re-read all my posts. esp the ones titled the 'good,the bad and the ugly truth'

all the best.

-Snowden

Hey guys,

I'm posting this in response to Snowden's commentary on the MBF course which I don't think is entirely objective.
I don't doubt his/her personal experience at HSG and I agree with some of the observations made, but I will say that my
own experience (as an EU citizen & native English speaker with little or no German and NO other languages) was quite different.

THE MBF COURSE
Regarding passing in 3 semesters, I don't know if its such "a big achievement" to get your courses done in 3 semesters, I did (in addition to 22 supplementary credits & CFA level 1), I wasn't alone, and I didn't have to kill myself working to achieve it. I'm also starting work without having written my thesis which is not uncommon (employers seem to be quite flexible in this regard).
People who take 4 semesters seem to be the ones who went on exchange to the US or Asia, or those who take 1 or 2 courses in the 4th semester alongside writing their thesis.
It is true however, that some people were unlucky and had to take 40 or more supplementary credits, these people I think may have to take 4 semesters to finish.

I believe that the 2014 MBF course is different to my own with regard to supplementary credits. I think you have the option to take a fresher's week which reduces the amount of credits you have to take (not too sure how it works)

JOB PROSPECTS
Generally it seems to be easier to get a job in Switzerland/Germany than London (don't know if this is because of the University's better reputation here or because London is just more difficult overall). However, I do know 7-8 people who were offered front office positions in GS, JPM, Blackrock etc.
For non-EU citizens I believe it is quite difficult to secure a UK visa but if you get a job in Switzerland your employer apply for your visa and work permit on your behalf.
That said, I'm sure it is more difficult for non-EU students to get a job/internship. I don't think this is necessarily reflective of the MBF program, it's probably true of all Master's courses across schools in Europe.
For those students who don't speak German but have another European language, Geneva is also an option over Zurich, and the banks there "love St. Gallen" from what I've heard. In job descriptions they seem to ask for English plus another European language.

I should add, the people who get the good jobs tend to have good grades, probably in the top 1/3 of the class. The best students also tended to be German/Swiss/Italian. So while it may seem like all the Swiss and Germans are getting the jobs it is probably deserved.

From my own experience, it is possible to get internship/grad position in Zurich while only speaking English.

True, many positions require fluency in German (especially if you will be client facing) however about 1/15 - 1/20 of front office positions do not (mostly in Asset Management, research, or quant roles). Also, middle & back office roles tend to only ask for fluency in English.

Additionally, the BB banks in Zurich don't follow the Milkround approach as in London. You can apply for grad/intern positions all year round (usually starting within 1 month of applying), they probably post up 2/3 new positions every day, which takes a lot of the pressure off.
That said, London teams also come round in October, all the BBs except BAML for some reason, and they are primarily offering the front office IB or S&T roles, some AM and PWM. They did tend to be the Swiss/German teams so if you apply you might have your first round on-campus interview with the Swiss team before getting forwarded to the team of your own nationality in London for the second round.

Personally, I didn't have much luck with the London teams - applied to maybe 7 BBs got 1st round for 2 and then got rejected, got to the final of one MM but got rejected. However I only applied to 4 positions in Zurich, got interviews for all of them and accepted a quant/research position at a BB before completing the other 3 (I think I was going to get 1 other offer).

I think you just need to look a bit harder for the roles that only require English, but once you find them the St. Gallen brand really carries you.

GENERAL ADVICE
I came to St. Gallen as I wanted a 3/4 semester Master's course so I could do a summer internship, and because I guessed (correctly I think) it would be easier to secure a job in Zurich than London.
I also got the impression that St. Gallen was a top school with great students and great lecturers etc.
Overall the experience worked out favorably for me and I got a job after a fairly challenging but rewarding Master's course.

I took quite a big risk coming to Switzerland without German or any other European language and I think others in similar positions should be careful about following suit.
That said, even if I had done a Master's in London/UK, it is a fairly big disadvantage to not have a second or third language.

For students with German who want to work in Switzerland/Germany/Austria, this is probably one of the best places to go.
For those with English and another European language but not German, I don't see much of a problem coming here, London and Geneva seem to pick up quite a number of HSG grads. Actually several people went to Germany/Italy as well.
For non-EU citizens, you should definitely have flawless English, and it does seem to be more difficult to secure a job, either in Switzerland or the UK, I think this will be the case for any European B-School.

Hi everyone,

I'm a German b-school grad thinking about doing the MBF. I'm currently doing internships for a year ("gap-year") including placements in trading & consulting. I've completed the GRE and with 169 points (quant) as well as a GPA of sligthly better than 2.0 (German grading), I believe my admission is pretty certain. Do post if you disagree, of course I don't want to expect something and be surprised when I fail at achieving it. haha
However, I'm not entirely sure whether I want to work in the Finance industry - yet I do want to progress academically in the field of Finance. This means that while I would appreciate good job opportunities with banks and consultancies alike, I was also wondering how many MBF graduates go on and pursue academic merits, be it directly after graduation or with a few years of professional placement in between.

Also, what the current cost of living in St Gallen? As a general measurement I would probably use the cost of beer in 1) supermarket 2) pub 3) club, so if someone knows the abovementioned prices... haha
Adding to it, of course, is housing. What should I expect in terms of rent? I have my own furniture so an empty room, be it single apartment or shared flat, would do. I don't need much, I would appreciate it being close to university though.

Another question is regarding the exchange opportunities: I certainly want to go on exchange, and maybe apply for a double degree. What are the chances, how many do apply for it? If I do a non-DD exchange, I'd like to go to the states - I think I can organize it myself if no exchange placement is available, can I?

Last but not least: whats the extracurricular life like?
1) Partying: How is the party atmosphere in St Gallen, how intense is the program (is there time to party hard? ) and where do people party?
2) How well do MBF students get to know other students?
3) Is the Ausländerclub really as awesome as people keep telling me?
3.1) Do the Swiss really hate the Germans as much as people keep telling me?

If anyone knows the answers to above questions, great, but otherwise I'm also happy to discuss and educated-guess the answers.

Greetings

Bob

please understand that my stand-alone posts are completely objective. I have alluded to personal experiences of both mine and others only when i have answered queries. in my defense those queries were of subjective/personal nature.

Since you accuse me of not being objective, i was really expecting an objective view from you, not a motivation letter

please remember that you have not yet graduated, and at HSG you have to get a minimum of 4/6 on your master thesis to pass it.

i guess you did not really mean that the admissions committee plays super lotto in deciding the number of supplementary credits. otherwise i really dont nderstand where the 'luck' factor comes in. Although it is true that going on exchange extends your study.


this is called 'integration days'. and for the record participation in integration days means you can get a max of 20 credits subject to you passing it. there is no partial pass. so failure in integration days implies full load of 20 credits.

this is naive gibberish. please read my detailed post on work-permits and canton specific quota system.



This is by far the most prejudiced racist comment I have ever heard. WTF is wrong with you? What do you fing mean by German/Sw/it are the best students...so you mean students from eastern europe, Asia, Africa are not good enough. How can you make this comment? Did you conduct a racist performance fing survey? Is that who you are? ..based on this i can see that you are a Swiss with a fake account, praising your own kind in third person...



redundant , i have already extensively covered this 'insight'

because you are actually Swiss..


no take-away from this para other than idle praise of the uni/region/your experience..

-Snowden

Just to add two more points

PRIOR WORK EXPERIENCE
HSG is not a miracle worker - you still need to have a pretty good profile to even get interviews with the big banks
When I started here I assumed that going to a fairly good business school meant I would be showered with internships and job offers from all the BBs
Unfortunately this is not the case

Very rarely did anyone even get an interview with a bank unless the had relevant prior work experience - quite a lot of people had 2/3 solid internships in boutiques or BBs before starting the program. Check out linkedin if you want to see the typical profiles of students who land jobs at BBs

The FT and probably the HSG MBF brochures do say this is a pre-experience Master's program, but I would HIGHLY RECOMMEND anyone who is starting the 2014 program to get RELEVANT WORK EXPERIENCE this summer before starting (I'd recommend it regardless of which Master's program you eventually attend, even with great academics and a good university, your profile will be incomplete without good work experience)

If you don't have relevant experience you will probably be quite disappointed during the HSG Banking Days

Even if you do have relevant experience, you might still be disappointed, the competition for the good jobs is really insane

RANKINGS
Regarding the whole misrepresentation of placement stats and student experiences,

I'm fairly confident that every single European business school are fudging or distorting their statistics in some way to get their schools more highly ranked

I would have thought this would be fairly obvious to anyone applying

I don't think there is a huge amount of difference between the top 20 business schools in the FT rankings in terms of securing you a job in Finance (probably HEC, LSE , and Oxford are an exception)

Most of your placement success is going to come down to your own ability, not your university, not your university's career centre

Totally agree, how you market yourself and your capabilities is the most crucial factor according to me, especially while competing for prime jobs.
There is only so much career centres can do ; organizing banking days and career fairs is pretty much as far as they can go.

I agree with you on the fudging of numbers for better rankings at HSG. but i will not go on to say every single european b school does it, i neither have the data nor the experience to comment on it. I dont know how it became obvious to you.

Coming to the gist of your essay, i conclude that whatever you have said is mostly true. But redundant and irrelevant. you are stating maxims and concluding in granular details. for ex ,I can say" sun rises in the east" ( true) and conclude hence HSG is no better or worse than HEC. well this is an exaggeration but i think you get the point.

you make obvious statements like colleges are not miracle workers, everything depends on you etc..while this is un-questionably true. the fact is, people spend time and money to get more than just knowledge from a university. This disclaimer was made early on in my posts.
well according to you it logically follows that there is no need to attend any university.
conversely, your statements are true even for Harvard. there is no insight into the workings of HSG, which is the topic here.
any student has the following expectations from the uni.

students want to fill-in the gaps in their profiles through the reputation of the university
students want doors to be opened due to the strong alumni network an uni has
students want to benefit from classmates both academic and otherwise
students want the Career services to groom them to adapt to the work life.

it is here where HSG fails with false promises and post buy-in clauses as proven by my data driven posts.

-Snowden

snowden, you are full of it. Seriously, get over it. Let me quote the relevant part again:


You should substitute "students want" with "snowden wanted". If I was able to pay for the above - i.e. getting admitted to and then profiting from just being in the right university because otherwise my profile is **** - my faith in both renowned institutions of the international tertiary education systems as well as employers (and even capitalism itself) would be lost. Here is why:

- do I want to get admitted to a top of the notch university with gaps in my profile so I can fill them with a name? No. If this question in itself doesn't sound paradox to you, I feel sorry.
- if you are a graduate and you still make the mistake of overestimating the power of university networks as a young postgrad without relevant work experience, I again feel sorry.
- if you believe you attend a top university because you think you pay your fees for the career service to serve you a decent placement, again: I feel sorry.

where you really are right is that most people I know choose university in order to benefit from each other. But that was about it. Other than that, all I see from any of your posts is broken illusions.

In other terms, you may be facing a problem of endogeneity when trying to interpret official statistics. I'll leave it to you to figure out what I mean, as an MBF grad I think you'll do fine.

PS: Comparing yourself with someone who gave up everything he lived and cared for in order to do what he believed was right is in itself an exaggeration beyond comparison.

PSS: Please share your source(s) regarding your claim that St Gallen trades international student quota from other programs in for the internationality of the MBF program. I have yet to find official sources, but from I heard 1) St Gallen was the first to introduce a quota, regardless of Swiss law, and 2) the quota never applied for programs entirely taught in English anway. But as I said, I'm genuinely interested in your sources as I have none of my own other than hearsay.

The reputation of the University alone is not going to fill the gaps on anyone's profile, but clearly from the Banking Days the university is a target school for London and especially Switzerland & Germany so you'll get more interviews and opportunities than otherwise, and in the interviews, regardless if you're speaking to a HSG alumni, you start from a strong position because they will assume (rightly or wrongly) that you actually know what you're talking about

The alumni network is great in the German speaking world and strong within the BBs in London, and if you're applying to the BBs in London or anything that says Finance in Switzerland or Germany it's likely there is an alumni there who you will pluck your CV off the pile. But they are not going to come knocking on your door offering you jobs, if you want to connect to them you're going to have to reach out yourself

I definitely found a lot of my fellow classmates to be really high calibre and great to work with, not all were amazing of course but most students are way above average ability

I don't think you can fault the careers service - they posted 95 jobs/internships in the last 2 weeks alone on their portal, mostly big name employers (13 didn't ask for German, 6 only required English), they have a mentoring program that'll link you with alumni in the BBs, they organise some awesome career fairs, put on crack-the-case & CV workshops, and they'll meet with you one-one to prepare you for interviews or anything you want to talk about



To be honest Snowden, I think you just need to take a chill pill

The first semester is quite lot of pressure, core modules are definitely hard, and if you have your expectations dashed during the Banking Days it's easy to think you're screwed (6 semesters to finish and no job prospects - I should never have come OMG!!!)

However, the second semester is more relaxed, the modules are not so bad & you can clock up more credits (30 or more if you’re motivated), and most people find their internships then - not during the Banking Days unfortunately

If you throw in the towel right after your first semester without really going the extra mile to find the job you're after you'll probably be back on the 2015 MBF forums, still moaning about how St. Gallen tricked you with their stats

But if you work hard and play it smart when it comes to your job search you'll probably get what you deserve in the end

Dear deszie and lolzebob,
i like the passion with which you are responding.
Please continue the discussion on this forum with the same zeal by giving data to support your claims, just like i have already done in my stand alone posts.

for example


if deszie can provide hard proof for this, then i am ready to take this information to Prof Ammann and Prof Von Wyss and make a case for not admitting non Swiss/German/ita...since according to the proof provided by deszie they are so dumb that they can neither get good grades nor jobs.



you have sort of proved me right , thank you lolzebob. MBF advertises as a pre-experience masters and here you have shown that without experience you are pretty much wasting your time here.
So MBF brochure is clearly lying to you when they say they are pre-experience masters. just another example of the lies that go around as applicant information.


-Snowden

My Bachelor's thesis was data-driven, at the chair of empirical capital market research, thank you. What you do is biased selection of some numbers, with or without sources, and their wild interpretation. It is by no means better than deszie's anectode, excepts he never claimed objectivity.

Regarding me proving your point: I think you were just unable to understand what "pre-experience" means. To be clear: it means a graduate degree prior to any permanent professional placement. It by no means ever says "we want graduates without internships". This assertion is ridiculous. Every relevant Master is called pre-experience (look at the financial times ranking!); any non-pre-experience, i.e. post-experience, Master requires multiple years of permanent professional placement. As for me, I will have completed a total of five internships before starting my Master's degree.

Anyhow, excuse my passion, I was drunk. Now since this is less board to discuss MBF 2014 intake and experiences of the classes before 2014 and more of a board for snowden to vent off his personal frustrations, I'll be gone. Cya, maybe in St Gallen not too far in the future

/edit I would also like to note that your ability to quote passages and attribute them correctly does not meet academic standards

Deszie,
Do you have any info on SIM and/or American/Perfect English non-EU job placement?
I'd love to get another perspective on the matter.
As for languages, I'll at least have one European language under my belt besides English.

Sorry mooncakes, I don't really know how the SIM class fared

You could always try to contact some of the past students on linkedin

And one of my U.S. friends from the MBF asked the admission office was there any Americans he could speak to about their experiences here and they linked him up with another American who had already done his first year (I don't know if he had already been accepted into the program when the admin office linked him up but it can't hurt to ask could they match you to a non-EU SIM student, worst they can say is no)

Regarding non-EU placement, for MBF students I've heard it is hard but it can't be impossible - I know one student who got a placement with a Swiss bank in Asia, another who had an internship in Switzerland, one more who is in a grad job in Germany, one who did an internship in Germany, one in a (non finance) internship in Germany, and another was recently interviewing for a job in Switzerland. I even met an non-EU girl at one of my interviews (for a Swiss based position) and she was in her final round.

I'm sure Snowden mentioned this somewhere, but there are quota's for each different nationality and your employer will need to prove that they couldn't find an EU/Swiss citizen to do the job - Lots of hurdles etc.