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Re: Michelangelo, it is believed, had made his sculpture of David using an [#permalink]
MentorTutoring AjiteshArun VeritasKarishma
I would really appreciate your inputs, I understand that "Have been Verbed" can be used to
a. Showcase someone that was started in past and continued till current time.
b. Showcase effect of an action that started in past.

However, I am unable to apply and make sense how is this correct in option C.

An eight-inch plaster model believed to have been used by Michelangelo for his sculpture of David has been discovered after having been lost for nearly 300 years.

having been lost for nearly 300 years :- this makes sense as it was lost for a period of 300 years.

But what doesn't make sense to me is "have been used by Michelangelo" and "has been discovered".
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Re: Michelangelo, it is believed, had made his sculpture of David using an [#permalink]
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hero_with_1000_faces wrote:
MentorTutoring AjiteshArun VeritasKarishma
I would really appreciate your inputs, I understand that "Have been Verbed" can be used to
a. Showcase someone that was started in past and continued till current time.
b. Showcase effect of an action that started in past.

However, I am unable to apply and make sense how is this correct in option C.

An eight-inch plaster model believed to have been used by Michelangelo for his sculpture of David has been discovered after having been lost for nearly 300 years.

having been lost for nearly 300 years :- this makes sense as it was lost for a period of 300 years.

But what doesn't make sense to me is "have been used by Michelangelo" and "has been discovered".
Hi hero_with_1000_faces,

If I've understood your question correctly, you are looking at the have been used in the sentence. Has/have been used can be a verb:

1. X has been used by Y. ← Here has been used is a verb (its subject is X).

In the sentence you are looking at, however, the have been used is actually not a complete verb. It is part of the infinitive phrase to have been used. The (perfect) infinitive in this sentence actually introduces something in the past. Let's take another sentence, one with an is before believed.

2. X is believed to have been used by Y. ← Here is believed is a (full) verb, one that combines with a subject to create an independent clause. Infinitives can't do that.

Now to see how a perfect infinitive can be used to show that something happened in the past:

3. X is believed to be Y. ← This sentence, which uses the present infinitive, should give you the impression that X is Y.

4. X is believed to have been Y. ← This sentence, which uses the perfect infinitive, should give you the impression that X was Y at some point in the past.
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Re: Michelangelo, it is believed, had made his sculpture of David using an [#permalink]
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hero_with_1000_faces wrote:
MentorTutoring AjiteshArun VeritasKarishma
I would really appreciate your inputs, I understand that "Have been Verbed" can be used to
a. Showcase someone that was started in past and continued till current time.
b. Showcase effect of an action that started in past.

However, I am unable to apply and make sense how is this correct in option C.

An eight-inch plaster model believed to have been used by Michelangelo for his sculpture of David has been discovered after having been lost for nearly 300 years.

having been lost for nearly 300 years :- this makes sense as it was lost for a period of 300 years.

But what doesn't make sense to me is "have been used by Michelangelo" and "has been discovered".

Hello, hero_with_1000_faces. I agree with what has been written above, so I will only add that I think you could benefit from expanding your knowledge of the usage or application of the present perfect tense. See, for example, this article on the topic, which expands upon the two instances you have outlined above. I hope it proves helpful.

Thank you for tagging me.

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generis wrote:
Michelangelo, it is believed, had made his sculpture of David using an eight-inch plaster model that was recently discovered after being lost for nearly 300 years.

A) Michelangelo, it is believed, had made his sculpture of David using an eight-inch plaster model that was recently discovered after being

B) An eight-inch plaster model is believed to have been used by Michelangelo for his sculpture of David and recently discovered after it was

C) An eight-inch plaster model believed to have been used by Michelangelo for his sculpture of David has been discovered after having been

D) It is believed that an eight-inch plaster model that Michelangelo used for his sculpture of David and has recently been discovered after it was

E) It is believed that Michelangelo used an eight-inch plaster model for his sculpture of David, and it was recently discovered after having been


SC07920.02


A and E are common traps here.

The OG explanation below explains 3 issues with A, including the issue with "using", that daagh correctly explained above.

1) "The structure of the sentence leaves the message somewhat unclear. Which of the following is it primarily meant to convey: (1) a belief about how Michelangelo made the sculpture of David or (2) a report about a recent discovery of a plaster model? The use and placement of the parenthetical it is believed is awkward and contributes toward making the meaning unclear. For example, is the discovery of the plaster model and its having been lost for almost 300 years part of what is believed? Or does the belief merely comprise the claim that Michelangelo used the model?"
2) "A further issue arises with the phrasing his sculpture of David using an eight-inch plaster model. We can readily get an absurd reading from this if we take the participial phrase using . . . model as predicated of David; it suggests that the sculpture portrayed David in the action of using an eight-inch plaster model."
3) "A verb-form issue arises with the past-perfect form had made, where the simple past made would be more appropriate."

E: We can't use the same pronoun "it" twice to refer to 2 different things.
Here's another challenging question that involves this issue: https://gmatclub.com/forum/heavy-commit ... 10136.html

OG: "E: The second portion of the sentence, it was recently discovered . . . is set off by a comma as an independent clause, so it is not part of what the first part of the sentence says is believed. Thus, if the second occurrence of it is understood as referring to the model, the sentence is rhetorically somewhat odd. It appears to indicate that Michelangelo is merely believed to have used a plaster model, but it then asserts that the model that is (currently) only believed to exist was recently discovered. Another issue with this version concerns the second occurrence of the pronoun it: hypothetically, it could refer to his sculpture of David, or to an eight-inch plaster model. Instead of the pronoun it, something like that model or even what is believed to be that model would make the sentence clearer and more precise."
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Re: Michelangelo, it is believed, had made his sculpture of David using an [#permalink]
GMATNinja, can you please help with choice E?

Why is choice E wrong? Because the 'it' used after comma + and doesn't have a clear referent? 'It' could refer to the plaster model or it could refer to the sculpture. This creates ambiguity in the meaning.

Also, can the same pronoun be used twice in a sentence to refer to two different antecedents?

Thank you!
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Re: Michelangelo, it is believed, had made his sculpture of David using an [#permalink]
MentorTutoring

Thank you, so, usage of "present perfect" is correct here, as it used to present accomplishment.
Appreciate your inputs good sir.
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hero_with_1000_faces wrote:
MentorTutoring

Thank you, so, usage of "present perfect" is correct here, as it used to present accomplishment.
Appreciate your inputs good sir.

Yes, the present perfect works fine in the sentence at hand to show that at some unspecified point in the past, Michelangelo may have used a maquette for the statue of David, one that was recently found. If you understand what makes the four incorrect answer choices incorrect, then I think you will have learned (future perfect) as much as you could hope to learn from this particular question.

Good luck with your studies.

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Re: Michelangelo, it is believed, had made his sculpture of David using an [#permalink]
Hello MentorTutoring

I would be very grateful, if you could review my methodology applied in this question, and whether I am making any grammatical mistakes, Thank You.

Quote:
A) Michelangelo, it is believed, had made his sculpture of David using an eight-inch plaster model that was recently discovered after being


We need to eliminate this bcoz:
a. had made his sculpture of David: The usage of Had is wrong as there no other past tense used in the sentence which has bearing or reference to this “usage of had”.

b. Usage of “using” is wrong as it modifies David, David doesn’t use eight-inch plaster.

Quote:
B) An eight-inch plaster model is believed to have been used by Michelangelo for his sculpture of David and recently discovered after it was

We need to check parallelism from Y to X, “recently discovered after it” a verb-ed modifier that needs to make sense with X part and we need to check whether it is parallel to the X part; in the X part, “used by Michelangelo for his” might be taken as parallel (in a mechanical way), However “believed to have been used….” (X) and “believed to have been recently discovered” (Y)changes the meaning and doesn’t make sense. Hence, we can eliminate this option. I hope I am right here.

Quote:
C) An eight-inch plaster model believed to have been used by Michelangelo for his sculpture of David has been discovered after having been

Had eliminated earlier, due to earlier limited understanding of usage of present perfect Tense.

Quote:
D) It is believed that an eight-inch plaster model that Michelangelo used for his sculpture of David and has recently been discovered after it was

We need to check parallelism from Y to X, “has recently been” a verb needs to make sense with X part and whether it is parallel to the X part; there is no parallel verb in the X part, even if we take used as a verb “Michelangelo used his sculpture and has been discovered” (Michelangelo has been discovered) doesn’t make sense. Hence, we can eliminate this option.

Quote:
E) It is believed that Michelangelo used an eight-inch plaster model for his sculpture of David, and it was recently discovered after having been
Again checking from X to Y, “It (Model) was recently discovered” (Y) and “Model for his sculpture” (X); there are not structurally parallel, as there is no verb in X. Hence eliminate.
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hero_with_1000_faces wrote:
Hello MentorTutoring

I would be very grateful, if you could review my methodology applied in this question, and whether I am making any grammatical mistakes, Thank You.

Yes, I would say you have it now, through and through. Now let the dust settle on this one and see if you can apply your newfound knowledge to the next set of questions. Well done.

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Re: Michelangelo, it is believed, had made his sculpture of David using an [#permalink]
Dear IanStewart

Could you, please, illustrate how to correctly split the main and auxiliary verb with a conjunction “and”?

For example: Visitors to the park have often looked up into the leafy canopy and seen...

Here “have” applies to both “looked up” and “seen”.

How about a passive construction?

B. An eight-inch plaster model is believed to have been used... and recently discovered...

Can “have been” apply to “recently discovered” and read as “have been recently discovered”? Is such split legitimate? I was unable to find an official precedent.

Many thanks beforehand!

Originally posted by JonShukhrat on 28 May 2020, 04:54.
Last edited by JonShukhrat on 16 Aug 2020, 02:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Rocknrolla21 wrote:
GMATNinja, can you please help with choice E?

Why is choice E wrong? Because the 'it' used after comma + and doesn't have a clear referent? 'It' could refer to the plaster model or it could refer to the sculpture. This creates ambiguity in the meaning.

Also, can the same pronoun be used twice in a sentence to refer to two different antecedents?

Thank you!

I think you have the right idea here.

The first "it" in choice (E) doesn't refer to any specific noun in the sentence -- this is known as a non-referential pronoun (check out this thread for more on that). Non-referential pronouns only make sense in very limited circumstances, and they're relatively rare on the GMAT. However, there are not automatically wrong.

But in choice (E), the use of a non-referential pronoun to start the sentence leads us to believe that the second "it" is non-referential as well. In other words, we expect something like, "and it was recently discovered THAT _____". Once we realize that the second "it" actually DOES have a referent, we aren't clear about what that referent actually IS (model? sculpture?).

Does that make (E) wrong? Maybe, maybe not. But choice (C) avoids those issues entirely, so, regardless, (C) is a much better answer.

There's a good discussion of your second question ("can the same pronoun be used twice in a sentence to refer to two different antecedents?") starting with this post (make sure to check out the follow-up questions and answers).

In this official question, "it" and "its" refer to two different things, suggesting that we can't automatically eliminate a sentence that uses the same pronoun to refer to two different things. That said, if other answer choices avoid that issue, that might be a small vote in favor of those other choices.

I hope that helps!
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Re: Michelangelo, it is believed, had made his sculpture of David using an [#permalink]
Why I am tripping over this question is because in answer choice C, *recently* is omitted which is an essential modifier and should be placed before discovered. I outrightly rejected answer choice C based on this.
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deep31993 wrote:
Why I am tripping over this question is because in answer choice C, *recently* is omitted which is an essential modifier and should be placed before discovered. I outrightly rejected answer choice C based on this.
Hi deep31993,

Don't you think that the present perfect is enough in this case?
1. A model has been discovered after having been lost for nearly 300 years.
2. A model has recently been discovered after having been lost for nearly 300 years.
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deep31993 wrote:
Why I am tripping over this question is because in answer choice C, *recently* is omitted which is an essential modifier and should be placed before discovered. I outrightly rejected answer choice C based on this.


Great question deep31993!

The purpose of the word "recently" here is to act as an adverb, not a modifier. It's meant to modify "discovered." Adverbs aren't always necessary to the overall meaning of a sentence, so leaving it out isn't really a problem here.

We hope that helps! Tag us at EMPOWERgmatVerbal if you have any other questions, and we'll be happy to help! :) :thumbsup:
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JonShukhrat wrote:
Dear IanStewart

How about a passive construction?

B. An eight-inch plaster model is believed to have been used... and recently discovered...

Can “have been” apply to “recently discovered” and read as “have been recently discovered”? Is such split legitimate? I was unable to find an official precedent.


I don't think there's any reason passive constructions work differently from active ones in this respect. A sentence like this, for example, is perfectly fine, and the "has been" applies to both verbs: Corn has been cultivated and eaten in the region for centuries. If the sentence were more complicated, and each verb was part of a separate clause, the "has been" would need to be repeated (and a pronoun could optionally preface the second "has been"), so you would need to repeat the phrase in a sentence like Corn has been cultivated in this region for centuries, and (it) has been eaten here for almost as long. Your suggested phrasing about the plaster model doesn't work for that reason, and if one were to fix it, it would also need to become clear whether the model itself was recently discovered (which is the intended meaning, surely), or whether the model was only "believed to have been recently discovered" (that meaning doesn't make much sense).
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Can someone clarify the usage of present perfect, especially considering what GMAC considers the right answer on this question:

https://gmatclub.com/forum/partly-as-a- ... 21767.html

An eight-inch plaster model believed to have been used by Michelangelo

Why do we use the present perfect here instead of "An eight-inch plaster model believed to be used by Michelangelo" - I know this sentence doesn't sound well on the ear, however, doesn't this go with the same principle which was used to justify the usage of the simple past in the problem cited above? The time frame in which the usage occurred is already over and there is no connection to the present.

Where am I getting this wrong? A general assertion of mine is that tenses on the GMAT are a pain in the ... as there isn't really a clear black and white, right or wrong distinction. One can also observe this when reading news article, the usage of present perfect without clearly established time frames is quite frequent.
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chrtpmdr wrote:

An eight-inch plaster model believed to have been used by Michelangelo

Why do we use the present perfect here instead of "An eight-inch plaster model believed to be used by Michelangelo"


"to be" is in the present, so if you say "A model believed to be used by Michelangelo", you're saying Michelangelo is using the model now. Because Michelangelo is not using models any more, it needs to say "to have been used".

This is not analogous to the question you've linked to. In the linked question, you're truly dealing with verb tenses (the verb "increased" has a subject). Here, the -ed words are adjectives, so they don't indicate much on their own about time.
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