Booth vs. Yale vs. Kellogg vs. Reapply

Jedd - thanks for the advice. I definitely agree that Booth has a fantastic finance program. My background is finance and I was thinking that Kellogg might round out my schools, though I have talked to a few people about this that each school has great teachers across functions even though they might be known for some specialty in particular (ie Kellogg, the "marketing school" has great finance profs and Booth has great marketing profs)

DagwoodDeluxe - thanks as well for your post. That's interesting what you say about the HBS program and the transformational experience thing. I definitely agree that PE is much more attainable coming from H/W/S, especially looking at the stats. Same for hedge funds even though Booth is strong in investment management (or someone correct me if I'm wrong - I'm just going off the employment report figures). I don't think I can improve my profile materially - my work is very small and once I asked for MBA recommendations they started planning for a new hire who is already scheduled to come on. I would likely get a new job, but its all speculative I guess...thanks for the advice and yes, that helps!

Hey robface - Sorry about the HBS ding, but congrats on all your success otherwise!! I was about to respond to your original question, then a question came to mind.

What does transformational mean to you?

Not 100% sure, but I think HBS frowns on reapps. Perhaps ask some admissions consultants what they think, but if your application is pretty much just you, but a year older, I don't see your chances of getting into HBS going up. On the contrary, they're probably horrendous relative to this year's application.

Not sure what the best course of action is, but you've got a few pretty good "birds in hand" and HBS might not even be a reasonable possibility... something to think deeply about.

I don't think HBS is worth that much of trouble, especially compared to the good options you have. I'd certainly go to Booth and forget all about HBS.

Good question...I think transformational in terms of an MBA is about becoming a person that you wouldn't have become otherwise...for example, gaining those soft skills that many leaders possess...a certain gravitas and ability to communicate effectively your ideas...I think its more about those soft skills and becoming more of a leader rather than learning a bunch of "technical stuff"

Your estimate seems hugely inflated.

Not a huge sample size, but I know two people who re-applied this year, and both got in. Obviously a small sample size, but at least worth taking into consideration.

So I'm a current Kellogg student in investment management (HF/other alternatives).

To be frank, the worst decision you can do is reapply.

you need to factor in
1. will i get in if i reapply?
2. if i don't get in, will booth/kellogg/yale take me again?
3. what am i going to do in this next year that justifies me losing a year?

If you really want to get into hedge funds on the quant side, there's 3 top schools:

1. booth
2. mit
3. yale master's of finance program

If you want to work on the fundamental side, it doesn't matter which MBA you get, you need to network your ass off. HBS will open some doors (the only place that comes to mind for me is bwater), but most funds are still comparing you to guys from wharton, booth, kellogg, columbia, etc.
the large firms who recruit at kellogg are citadel and SAC

hbs is a great school, on a whole i'd be the first to admit that i think its a better school than kellogg. but the difference isn't worth a year. even in investment management. and the gap is even less at booth.

Given that I'm currently sitting on the couch while my wife watches the Country Music Awards, I decided to actually look into this statistic. I've debated it with friends before, and you claim my estimate is inflated, so I figured I'd get the facts.

I looked at the websites of the top 15 PE funds by fund size, according to Private Equity International (PEI). I evaluated what % of senior professionals at each firm had an MBA from a school other than H/S/W. First, a few qualifiers:
1. I only looked at senior partners (would take too long to look at all MDs, Partners, and VPs). The title for this position varied by firm, but the most common title was Managing Director.
2. I only looked at U.S. offices. The OP seems to want to work in the U.S., and the MBA degree is obviously much less relevant internationally, so much fewer professionals have MBAs at all, let alone from H/S/W.
3. I only looked at traditional LBO/private equity. I ignored other product groups within the mega-funds (e.g. venture, real estate, hedge fund)
4. I only looked at investment professionals. In other words, I did not look at MDs that are head of the back-offce, or head of accounting, or head of LP Services, etc.
5. Most firms had several MDs that did not have an MBA (either just a bachelors, or another advanced degree, typically a JD).

Here are the results:
TPG - N/A (don't profile professionals on the website, at least that I could find)
Bain Capital - 3/22 (2 Tuck, 1 UChicago) - 14%
Carlyle - 2/17 (1 Haas, 1 Loyola College) - 12%
KKR - 1/14 (1 Anderson) - 7%
Blackstone - 2/19 (1 City University of New York, 1 U Chicago) - 11%
Apollo - 1/16 (University of Western Ontario) - 6%
CVC - 0/1 (Only one US MD) - 0%
First Reserve - 2/12 (Rice, Cornell) - 7%
H&F - 1/16 (Kellogg) - 6%
Apax - 1/11 (INSEAD) - 9%
General Atlantic - 5/18 (Stern, Babson, 2 Columbia) - 28%
Warburg Pincus - N/A (no way to sort by title on the website)
Cerberus - N/A (no bios included)
Advent - 0/10 - 0%
TOTAL - 18/156 - 12%

Key take-aways:
1. I was pretty much dead-on with the 90% estimate.
2. If you don't go to H/S/W and want to work at a large PE fund, apply to GA!

A few caveats on this analysis:
1. I may have missed an MD here or there - it is difficult to sort by geography/title on many of the websites.
2. Obviously the % of MDs with MBAs from schools other than H/S/W will increase as the fund size decreases and/or as you move to regional cities (e.g., GTCR and Madison Dearborn in Chicago are great funds not on this list, but will have more people from Kellogg and U Chicago).

Anyway, the point is, if you want to work for a large PE fund, it is a HUGE advantage to get into H/S/W and VERY difficult to break in if you go to another school.

-------------------------------------
Pls allow me to make some corrections on the statement above...

PE --> yes, pretty much all mega fund PE guys went to H/S/W. What's the chance of anyone from top business school get into one of 10-15 (roughly) mega funds? very very slim (you would need pre PE experience at a legitimate shop). Then comes the next question, where did non mega fund PE guys got their MBAs? Well, the good news is that H/S/W stamped MBA number drops significantly so you are okay as long as you goto other top schools such as Kellogg, Booth, and many others. You'll be perfectly okay with either of them. Don't get me wrong, guys from Kellogg and Booth also make it to mega funds but the total # would be less than that of H/S/W.

Now on HF --> as someone in the HF world right now, unlike PE shops, HFs DO NOT care whether you have an MBA or not. It's true that Harvard attract most HF recruiters than any other school but HF recruiting is self initiated anyways wherever you go. Harvard won't get you HF job guaranteed.....My friend at HBS just told me that there are about good 30 2nd yrs currently looking for HF job (they will be graduating in about a month - sad). HF recruiting is all about your own networking and etc.. Big catch here: AGAIN, I would say about 90% of HFs DO NOT care about MBAs. So if your goal is to get into a HF thru an MBA (200K of cost, foregone comp, and 2 yrs of time), it doesn't make sense as HFs DO NOT care whether someone has an MBA. PE does care but not HF. They don't give a crap about MBA. However, if you need 2 yrs time to look for a HF job, then maybe MBA might be worth it. HF is not like PE, you don't need an MBA to get a HF job. Even if you get into a HF, your compensation as a post MBA dude/gal will be exactly the same as a guy/gal who came in w/o an MBA. Period.

-------------------

Agree, just goto Booth or Kellogg. The fact that these schools "welcome reapplicant" just sounds they are after collecting $250 of app fees, drive their acceptance rate lower (boosts ranking by making the process more selective), and get total number of app up to appeal as highly desirable school.... School's all about business too.... They just need to make up as diverse group of class as possible (just like a retail store that has different type of clothes in different sizes and color) so that their customers (recruiters) can come in and pick out the ones they like and are likely to come work for them.

Don't want to discourage you from reapplying to HBS, but the odds are not in your favor. If you can afford to waste another year and defer K or B, then you can go for it but the chances will be not that much more different next yr when you are a year older.

--------------------

Your response on "transformational" screams Kellogg all around... but it'll be hard to pass up Booth half $... For IM/HF, Booth and Kellogg (it doesn't matter)... Both are located in IL and you'll have to do your own legwork on IM recruiting anyways... Booth might attract slightly more IM recruiters than Kellogg but I also know some guys who are going to Citadel, Carlson, SAC from Kellogg this yr. It's all about doing your own work for IM. But I can tell you straight up that your 2 yr of MBA won't be that fun since you'll probably spend almost all that 2 yrs on recruiting... IM from MBA is just that tough even with H/S/W... same story...

@robface - i know it might be hurting a little not getting into your top school of choice.

but, i think you are considering wrong choices for the wrong reasons.

here is why. if you wish to just work (or say make it big) in a specific function, industry you don't need that transformational experience. what you need is YOU. any top 10 school will jump start your career, open that door for to get you started. beyond that, it is up to you to decide where you want to go. the "soft skills" that you talk about aren't acquired in a classroom, they are a function of the experiences and insights you gain over a period of time.

as other posts have mentioned, yes, there is an edge to the network of H/S/W alumni, but it is going to matter to a certain extent. don't forget that as you start working after mba, progressing your career, you build another network in your professional/personal life as well.

i am not sure how old you are and how much energy and drive you have to pursue a reapplication next year. but, say you do reapply and get admitted to HBS next year. 10 years from now, looking back, you would agree that letting go of the one year and half tuition scholarship wasn't worth it.

final argument - do you think the highly successful H/S/W alumni who have changed companies, communities or perhaps even countries wouldn't have done so if they had gone to business school elsewhere? I seriously doubt that. Its just that like you, they applied to the same schools, go admitted and of course went to HSW. If one of HSW didn't exist, if business degrees didn't exist, they would have still made an impact on the society and people around them.

hope this helps.

For the sake of argument, I check the director and MD of the top 5-7 PE firms.

What I found was:

A case CAN be made for Harvard Business School in PE.

They have notably more HBS mbas than the other schools.

However, the same can't be said about Wharton or Stanford. Specially Wharton, that has the same 1000 class size as HBS. Stanford and Wharton have about the same number of members as the other top finance schools such as MIT, Columbia and Chicago...and NYU (ny connection)!

With that said, EVERY firm has at least 1-2 members from other top 10-ish schools such as Cornell, Cass, Mccombs, Darden, Kellogg, Anderson.

Bottom line, yes, if you want to crack PE, HBS seems to have the best network.

Followed by S/W/B/C/NYU

But, most top 10-15 bschools had representation at these firms.

In the end, I agree that PE/VC recruiting is a nightmare at EVERY school, including HBS.

I have a few HBS/W friends who spent over 6 months to 1 year to find a job in these industries. These involved travelling to various cities in the US and around the world and doing some HEAVY recruiting.

this is great data - hopefully others will see this too

Great point about the value of an MBA at hedge funds and PE. I actually might need some time to look for a HF job, and hopefully develop some other skills that might not help me get the job, but hopefully will help over the long-run.

Thanks sanjuro - good commentary and very helpful