pelihu wrote:
Well, I don't really want to make this post about myself personally, but riverripper in pointing out that most of those assumptions do not apply to me.
I did want to comment on the relationship between money, education and work. Obviously, it would be great if everyone could make big piles of money working brief hours doing something that they love and taking lots of vacation. The dream was busted for me when I realized in jr. high that I probably wasn't ever going to be point guard for the Lakers.
I think by-and-large, college graduates and people getting MBAs are smart and thoughtful. It would be silly to commit to an MBA without first considering the alternatives. To do this, you have to consider the costs (actual, opportunity cost, personal, social, whatever is important for you) and then decide whether it is worth it. A key factor that edwarise ignores is that there are not absolute calculations for this - it must be based on estimates, projections and assumptions. Nobody knows what the value of a Stanford MBA is to each individual, but almost everyone will agree that it is worth the cost (just to reinforce, cost means all costs). Will you have a better quality of life in 10 years if you instead take the $160k and 2 years and launch a start-up? Maybe. What about if you bet on commodity futures? Maybe. How about the lottery? Maybe. But most people will look at the Stanford MBA and conclude that with the given risk and reward (very low risk, very high reward), it would be a smart investment of their time and money. If your name is Lebron James, playing basketball might be a better use of your time than getting a Stanford MBA (all costs considered); for the other 99.9999999% of the people, the alternatives do not measure up.
Again, MBA students, for the most part, do not make career decisions willy-nilly, and most take a long-term look at their futures. Nobody takes a banking job because their dream in life is to work 80 hours a week and make $300k per year (well, not many people); however, a lot of people take a look at all the alternatives and after running through some Monte-Carlo simulations in their heads, decide that banking is the best way to achieve their goals. Sure, some entrepreneurs will be making a lot more money than bankers 5 years out, but it's crazy to look at outliers in various fields and compare them to average participants in others. The clear and simple bottom line is that from the risk/reward standpoint of graduates of top business schools, a job in banking (and related finance fields) is the most well-beaten path to a top paying job in the short, medium, and even long terms. Sure, many associates do not make it to MD, but more follow that route (or hop over to more lucrative positions with private equity and hedge funds) than rise to CEO or become mega-successful entrepreneurs. For the given amount of risk, banking probably provides the greatest reward, by a large margin (everyone's calculation will be different - perhaps some are sensational entrepreneurs, or maybe others are world class golfers, who knows).
Certainly, there are more ways to look at things. Maybe you're the type of person that really values doing their own thing. Maybe you're the type who would rather take substantially more career risks; or less risk for substantially less pay. Then again, maybe you're the type staring at $250k in college and grad school debt and would love to get that monkey off your back in short order. Maybe you're the type that plans to take care parents who worked hard all their lives but never had the chance to save for retirement. Maybe you're the type that just really loves money. These, and a million other things will determine how much job risk you're willing to take on, and how much money you hope to make. But let's not write off the 20-40% of students at top business schools every year who choose to go into a perrineally popular and high demand field like banking. Thousands of students before you have looked at the broad field of opportunities open to students at top business schools and decided that banking was for them. They weren't stupid.
Thank you for thorough thoughts. I really did not mean you personally, just think about ideas I read in this topic from different people.
To be honest I did not catch your main point, so I’ll try to explain what I really meant. I’m not thinking something bad about IB industry, I’m a some kind of ibanker myself (I organize deals sometimes despite it’s not a profile of my company). I do like this business; I just don’t like the working culture what was described here. And also I strongly do not like words “career”, “ladders”, “career planning” and so on as many people understand them. I don’t like manipulation of young men creating common corporate culture for everyone that all these things are ok and so on. I think people just should think more careful about it. It’s not about IB or any other industry; it’s about thinking about the life more globally, loftier and more independent than mass-media, corporations and people around want you to think. In the end everyone will find out own answers, I like people who are really understand what they do and why and has independent view on all these stuff. People maybe like you.
I believe that most MBA candidates and students are thoughtful people and able to make difficult life decisions. But I think many young people just have not enough information about life institutions and their sense, and many of them have not enough time or habit for real reflection, for understanding their values, life mission, real abilities and needs. I’ve seen it many times. I’ve gone this way myself, changing 5 career paths during my life and preparing for a new one. I’ve seen a lot of guys whose minds were broken down by big companies or some industries, not because there was something wrong with them, but because they had not understood themselves well in young ages. People who were bright, promising and ambitious in 20 often became ordinary and lost in 25. Its common problem as I see it and such discussions and thinking are useful either for writers or readers to estimate their values more thorough.
I totally disagree with you that for 99,99999% of people Stanford MBA is a great thing. I’m loving Stanford GSB and going to apply to it (because its orientation on development, reflection, VC and soft skills), its great investment for me (not in money terms – in money it’s not obvious if considering 10-15 year horizon). But I’m sure that it’s good may be for 9.999% of people, or even less. Most of people don’t want to work in business, most people don’t like to manage people, for most of people it’s too risky, and most of people are just not able to get in or finish it. For most of people Stanford MBA just has not any sense (it’s why they have 5 000 applications each year not 5 000 000:) Most of people just not able to utilize it right and get benefits for yourself which it can give (because any MBA is not a winning ticket itself, it's a tool which you need use in a right way and get the maximum value from it - it's very difficult and not for everyone). If a guy really doesn't understand why he need it and how to utilize it and believe that it's just a winning ticket - he wouldn't get anything from it. It's like nuclear energy - it's big power, but if you don't know how to use it - it worthless for you. And I’m afraid that many people apply to MBA or go to some industries not because it’s right for them, but because culture, fashion, standards and because their friends and people around do it. Is not it true?
I don’t ignore that life decisions should be based on estimates and assumptions, it’s true, but I believe it should be based on full information, values and real need first.
About IB money. If to be honest I don’t believe that the money you get depends on industry you work. It’s more depends on quality of your work, your passion and abilities for it and so on. I hear about a cook who get 5M and think that it is better to be a good cook than a bad banker (not because money but in general). And actually numbers you operate is not big money for me. I don’t consider 1-5M per year as a big money and I do refuse from any risk-free proposal to work 10 years for 1M per year after taxes doing something I’m not really love. Especially for 80 hours a week without vacations. Even 10M is not the figure, because if you think that loosing 10 young years of your life you will win that years behind them it’s not the true. You will never get these years back. And you have not another life to try it again. So IB it’s not better or worse for consideration, but to make a choice many factors should be taken into account (mostly inside you, not outside) and the money is the last factor. If you are successful you would have enough money to be happy, if you not – you wouldn’t. In any area. Culture that says if you just will work as hard as possible, be very discipline and devote many years to some institution you will get good position, big checks and happy life in the future - just a propaganda. Everyone must choose his way only by himself after thorough analysis of all thinks. I believe in it.
There is not one right answer or right choice; there is a room for thinking and self-analysis. Good luck to everybody in your most important life decision. I hope you will never regret about them.
P.S. I meant that I prefer PA to SF not because cost of living or real estate but because environment ad lifestyle.