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IMO 1-C , 2-B

Chiranjeev- can you please confirm the same!

Please keep the 700+ questions coming like SC :)
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blueseas wrote:
great article as usual.

i think the below question also comes under same category.

1)Guidebook Writer: I have visited hotels throughout the country and have noticed that in those built before 1930 the quality of the original carpentry work is generally superior to that in hotels built afterward. Clearly carpenters working on hotels before 1930 typically worked with more skill, care, and effort than carpenters who have worked on hotels built subsequently.

Which of the following, if true, most seriously weakens the guidebook writer’s argument?

A. The quality of original carpentry in hotels is generally far superior to the quality of original carpentry in other structures, such as houses and stores.
B. Hotels built since 1930 can generally accommodate more guests than those built before 1930.
C. The materials available to carpenters working before 1930 were not significantly different in quality from the materials available to carpenters working after 1930.
D. The better the quality of original carpentry in a building, the less likely that building is to fall into disuse and be demolished.
E. The average length of apprenticeship for carpenters has declined significantly since 1930.
guidebook-writer-have-visited-hotels-throughout-the-country-80358.html#p603511


Thank you for the appreciation :)

Yes, you are correct - this question also comes uses the concept of "representative sample" but applying this concept on this question requires a bit of nuanced understanding :)

Thank you for posting the question on this thread.

-Chiranjeev
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bagdbmba wrote:
IMO 1-C , 2-B

Chiranjeev- can you please confirm the same!

Please keep the 700+ questions coming like SC :)


Hi,

I'll post the answers on Monday. I am expecting a few more replies before I post the answers. :)

Regarding your demand for 700+ questions, we'll be posting two fresh e-GMAT CR questions on Monday. So, be on the lookout.

-Chiranjeev
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Re: Sampling in Official GMAT CR Questions [#permalink]
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Great Sir!
Look forward to it...
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bagdbmba wrote:
IMO 1-C , 2-B

Chiranjeev- can you please confirm the same!

Please keep the 700+ questions coming like SC :)


Hi,

The correct answers are C and E.

Thanks,
Chiranjeev
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Re: Sampling in Official GMAT CR Questions [#permalink]
Thanks Chiranjeev...
Oops! I got one wrong...Just a quick clarification - when I've narrowed down to two options in 'Assumption question' , is it the best time to use negation test right there instead of using it upfront as latter case will take much time?

Can you please explain the question of 'Guidebook Writer:' posted here by blueseas?

Appreciate your reply.
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Re: Sampling in Official GMAT CR Questions [#permalink]
First of all great effort on summing up a few best practices and lessons on CR!

Secondly, I'm a bit dubious on your 2nd example on Assumption type questions:

E. None of the salts carried into the Earth's oceans by rivers are used up by biological activity in the oceans

If we negate that, shouldn't it be "All of the salts carried into the Earth's oceans by rivers are used up by biological activity in the oceans", i.e all opposite of none ?

Therefore, if we do that, the argument also falls apart, no?
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Skag55 wrote:
First of all great effort on summing up a few best practices and lessons on CR!

Secondly, I'm a bit dubious on your 2nd example on Assumption type questions:

E. None of the salts carried into the Earth's oceans by rivers are used up by biological activity in the oceans

If we negate that, shouldn't it be "All of the salts carried into the Earth's oceans by rivers are used up by biological activity in the oceans", i.e all opposite of none ?

Therefore, if we do that, the argument also falls apart, no?


Hi,

Thanks for the appreciation! :)

The negation of "None" is "some", not "all".

Why so?

Let's first understand: what does negation mean logically?

Let's suppose we have a statement A. In that case, negation of A, let's say ~A, will be a statement which
1. is always false when A is true
2. is always true when A is false

In essence,
1. at any time, either A or ~A should be true
2. and at no time, both A and ~A can both be true (or false).

Now, if we apply this understanding to "None" and "All", we can see that these are not negations of each other.

So, if 50% of the salts are used up by biological activity, then both "None of the salts are used up by biological activity" and "All of the salts are used up by biological activity" are false at the same time. Neither is true. So, they are not negations of each other.

The correct negation of "None" is "some". "Some" means anything greater than zero (including "all" or 100%)

Thanks,
Chiranjeev
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Re: Sampling in Official GMAT CR Questions [#permalink]
egmat wrote:
Skag55 wrote:
First of all great effort on summing up a few best practices and lessons on CR!

Secondly, I'm a bit dubious on your 2nd example on Assumption type questions:

E. None of the salts carried into the Earth's oceans by rivers are used up by biological activity in the oceans

If we negate that, shouldn't it be "All of the salts carried into the Earth's oceans by rivers are used up by biological activity in the oceans", i.e all opposite of none ?

Therefore, if we do that, the argument also falls apart, no?


Hi,

Thanks for the appreciation! :)

The negation of "None" is "some", not "all".

Why so?

Let's first understand: what does negation mean logically?

Let's suppose we have a statement A. In that case, negation of A, let's say ~A, will be a statement which
1. is always false when A is true
2. is always true when A is false

In essence,
1. at any time, either A or ~A should be true
2. and at no time, both A and ~A can both be true (or false).

Now, if we apply this understanding to "None" and "All", we can see that these are not negations of each other.

So, if 50% of the salts are used up by biological activity, then both "None of the salts are used up by biological activity" and "All of the salts are used up by biological activity" are false at the same time. Neither is true. So, they are not negations of each other.

The correct negation of "None" is "some". "Some" means anything greater than zero (including "all" or 100%)

Thanks,
Chiranjeev


Aha! That clears up things. So to sum it up, "negation" is not "opposite", it's "anything else but this".

I perceived it as
"opposite of 1 is -1" (if you think in the X axis for instance), instead of
"not 1 is 0, -1, 52 etc.."

Thanks for the clarification!
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Re: Sampling in Official GMAT CR Questions [#permalink]
bagdbmba wrote:
Thanks Chiranjeev...
Oops! I got one wrong...Just a quick clarification - when I've narrowed down to two options in 'Assumption question' , is it the best time to use negation test right there instead of using it upfront as latter case will take much time?

Can you please explain the question of 'Guidebook Writer:' posted here by blueseas?

Appreciate your reply.


Hi Chiranjeev,
Could you please shot a reply on the above concerns?

Would much appreciate your feedback.
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Hi,

Sorry for the delay! Lots of things are going on at the same time.

bagdbmba wrote:
Thanks Chiranjeev...
Oops! I got one wrong...Just a quick clarification - when I've narrowed down to two options in 'Assumption question' , is it the best time to use negation test right there instead of using it upfront as latter case will take much time?


Yes, you are correct. You should use negation test only when you have narrowed down to two or at the most three option statements. Of course, time is one factor but also, if you need to apply negation test on all option statements, then it tells that you have not really understood the passage clearly.

bagdbmba wrote:
Can you please explain the question of 'Guidebook Writer:' posted here by blueseas?

Appreciate your reply.


What is your take on the question?

Can you identify the sample and the population?

Also, how does option D, which is the correct choice, indicates that the sample was not representative?

I think you learn the best when you do it yourself. I'll provide my analysis after you do this :)

Thanks,
Chiranjeev
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Re: Sampling in Official GMAT CR Questions [#permalink]
egmat wrote:

bagdbmba wrote:
Can you please explain the question of 'Guidebook Writer:' posted here by blueseas?

Appreciate your reply.


What is your take on the question?

Can you identify the sample and the population?

Also, how does option D, which is the correct choice, indicates that the sample was not representative?

I think you learn the best when you do it yourself. I'll provide my analysis after you do this :)

Thanks,
Chiranjeev


Hi Chiranjeev,
I think(NOT 100% confident although), here sample is - the hotels (both pre-1930 and post-1930) that the Guidebook Writer has visited throughout the country.

Whereas population - ALL the hotels built pre-1930 and post-1930.

Not getting option D as it appears to me as a general statement! :( Although marked on the basis of the fact that other options could not be correct.... But, if you ask me to provide solid reasoning why I chose D on its own, well, I don't have an answer honestly.

Please provide your analysis...
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bagdbmba wrote:

Hi Chiranjeev,
I think(NOT 100% confident although), here sample is - the hotels (both pre-1930 and post-1930) that the Guidebook Writer has visited throughout the country.

Whereas population - ALL the hotels built pre-1930 and post-1930.

Not getting option D as it appears to me as a general statement! :( Although marked on the basis of the fact that other options could not be correct.... But, if you ask me to provide solid reasoning why I chose D on its own, well, I don't have an answer honestly.

Please provide your analysis...


Amazing stuff. You are bang on in finding the population and the sample.

Now, let's look at the argument and option D:

Guidebook Writer: I have visited hotels throughout the country and have noticed that in those built before 1930 the quality of the original carpentry work is generally superior to that in hotels built afterward. Clearly carpenters working on hotels before 1930 typically worked with more skill, care, and effort than carpenters who have worked on hotels built subsequently.

D. The better the quality of original carpentry in a building, the less likely that building is to fall into disuse and be demolished.

What does option D mean?

Let's consider a time period: 1800 A.D. to 2000 A.D. Suppose, the argument was written in 2000 A.D. ( Please note that I am using these date to explain the logic; you can use any other dates; the logic will remain the same)

Also, suppose that the "average" life of a hotel is 100 years.

Now, in such a case, we'll have a very large proportion of hotels created after 1930 still in existence. Right?
On the other hand, a large proportion of hotels created from 1800 to 1930 would not exist now.

Now, of the hotels built from 1800 to 1930, which hotels would exist now? The ones with the best original carpentry.

So, when the guidebook writer i.e. the author of the argument visits any hotel built before 1930, he is going to see a really good carpentry. The reason is that only those hotels built before 1930 exist now which have the best original carpentry.

But these hotels that exist now are not representative of all the hotels built before 1930. Only the best exist now; the rest have perished. So, the average quality of carpentry in these hotels will be much greater than the average quality of carpentry of all the hotels built before 1930.

Since, the sample of hotels built before 1930 that exist now (or that the author visited) is not representative of all the hotels built before 1930, the conclusion is greatly weakened.

Does it help?

Thanks,
Chiranjeev
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Re: Sampling in Official GMAT CR Questions [#permalink]
egmat wrote:
bagdbmba wrote:

Hi Chiranjeev,
I think(NOT 100% confident although), here sample is - the hotels (both pre-1930 and post-1930) that the Guidebook Writer has visited throughout the country.

Whereas population - ALL the hotels built pre-1930 and post-1930.

Not getting option D as it appears to me as a general statement! :( Although marked on the basis of the fact that other options could not be correct.... But, if you ask me to provide solid reasoning why I chose D on its own, well, I don't have an answer honestly.

Please provide your analysis...


Amazing stuff. You are bang on in finding the population and the sample.

Now, let's look at the argument and option D:

Guidebook Writer: I have visited hotels throughout the country and have noticed that in those built before 1930 the quality of the original carpentry work is generally superior to that in hotels built afterward. Clearly carpenters working on hotels before 1930 typically worked with more skill, care, and effort than carpenters who have worked on hotels built subsequently.

D. The better the quality of original carpentry in a building, the less likely that building is to fall into disuse and be demolished.

What does option D mean?

Let's consider a time period: 1800 A.D. to 2000 A.D. Suppose, the argument was written in 2000 A.D. ( Please note that I am using these date to explain the logic; you can use any other dates; the logic will remain the same)

Also, suppose that the "average" life of a hotel is 100 years.

Now, in such a case, we'll have a very large proportion of hotels created after 1930 still in existence. Right?
On the other hand, a large proportion of hotels created from 1800 to 1930 would not exist now.

Now, of the hotels built from 1800 to 1930, which hotels would exist now? The ones with the best original carpentry.

So, when the guidebook writer i.e. the author of the argument visits any hotel built before 1930, he is going to see a really good carpentry. The reason is that only those hotels built before 1930 exist now which have the best original carpentry.

But these hotels that exist now are not representative of all the hotels built before 1930. Only the best exist now; the rest have perished. So, the average quality of carpentry in these hotels will be much greater than the average quality of carpentry of all the hotels built before 1930.

Since, the sample of hotels built before 1930 that exist now (or that the author visited) is not representative of all the hotels built before 1930, the conclusion is greatly weakened.

Does it help?

Thanks,
Chiranjeev


Hi Chiranjeev,
Thanks for your detailed analysis but I'm unfortunately not able to understand how D is weakening the argument actually ?

Additionally, here we're showing that the 'sample of hotels built before 1930 that exist now (or that the author visited) is not representative of all the hotels built before 1930' by assuming that "average" life of a hotel is 100 years within the stipulated time period.

But what if "average" life of a hotel is 300 years - it could have been assumed as well I guess...! In this case, then can we say that the above sample is NOT the proper representative of the pre-1930 hotels ? If yes, then please let me know how?
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bagdbmba wrote:
egmat wrote:
bagdbmba wrote:

Hi Chiranjeev,
I think(NOT 100% confident although), here sample is - the hotels (both pre-1930 and post-1930) that the Guidebook Writer has visited throughout the country.

Whereas population - ALL the hotels built pre-1930 and post-1930.

Not getting option D as it appears to me as a general statement! :( Although marked on the basis of the fact that other options could not be correct.... But, if you ask me to provide solid reasoning why I chose D on its own, well, I don't have an answer honestly.

Please provide your analysis...


Amazing stuff. You are bang on in finding the population and the sample.

Now, let's look at the argument and option D:

Guidebook Writer: I have visited hotels throughout the country and have noticed that in those built before 1930 the quality of the original carpentry work is generally superior to that in hotels built afterward. Clearly carpenters working on hotels before 1930 typically worked with more skill, care, and effort than carpenters who have worked on hotels built subsequently.

D. The better the quality of original carpentry in a building, the less likely that building is to fall into disuse and be demolished.

What does option D mean?

Let's consider a time period: 1800 A.D. to 2000 A.D. Suppose, the argument was written in 2000 A.D. ( Please note that I am using these date to explain the logic; you can use any other dates; the logic will remain the same)

Also, suppose that the "average" life of a hotel is 100 years.

Now, in such a case, we'll have a very large proportion of hotels created after 1930 still in existence. Right?
On the other hand, a large proportion of hotels created from 1800 to 1930 would not exist now.

Now, of the hotels built from 1800 to 1930, which hotels would exist now? The ones with the best original carpentry.

So, when the guidebook writer i.e. the author of the argument visits any hotel built before 1930, he is going to see a really good carpentry. The reason is that only those hotels built before 1930 exist now which have the best original carpentry.

But these hotels that exist now are not representative of all the hotels built before 1930. Only the best exist now; the rest have perished. So, the average quality of carpentry in these hotels will be much greater than the average quality of carpentry of all the hotels built before 1930.

Since, the sample of hotels built before 1930 that exist now (or that the author visited) is not representative of all the hotels built before 1930, the conclusion is greatly weakened.

Does it help?

Thanks,
Chiranjeev


Hi Chiranjeev,
Thanks for your detailed analysis but I'm unfortunately not able to understand how D is weakening the argument actually ?

Additionally, here we're showing that the 'sample of hotels built before 1930 that exist now (or that the author visited) is not representative of all the hotels built before 1930' by assuming that "average" life of a hotel is 100 years within the stipulated time period.

But what if "average" life of a hotel is 300 years - it could have been assumed as well I guess...! In this case, then can we say that the above sample is NOT the proper representative of the pre-1930 hotels ? If yes, then please let me know how?


Yes, in case of 300 years also, the same logic will apply. Remember, I considered the period from 1800 onwards, if 300 years is the average age, then we'll have hotels built even before 1700 still in existence. 300 years is the average life: some hotels may have more than average life and some may have less than average life.

So, now if we consider period from 1600 onwards, the same logic will apply as the logic applied in case of 100 years and 1800 A.D.

The more you increase the average life, the more back in the time we'll need to go because in case of higher average life, we'll have more older hotels still in existence.

An analogy to understand this:
Suppose you read books of an author X who died 100 years back and books of an author Y who is currently. Then, you say that average quality of books of X is better than that of Y.

So, you read some books (sample) and you made a conclusion about all the books (population).

Now, if someone tells you that only those books of X are preserved now which were his best and the rest of the books were actually discarded, can you still make a claim that the average quality of all books of X is better than average quality of all books of Y? No. Why? Because you have read only the best books of X but all kinds (best, not so best, bad) books of Y.

Hope this helps.

Thanks,
Chiranjeev
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Re: Sampling in Official GMAT CR Questions [#permalink]
egmat wrote:
So, now if we consider period from 1600 onwards, the same logic will apply as the logic applied in case of 100 years and 1800 A.D.

The more you increase the average life, the more back in the time we'll need to go because in case of higher average life, we'll have more older hotels still in existence.


Hi Chiranjeev,
Thanks for the analysis.+1

I got your analogy clearly but still having some confusion on the above part...it seems to me that we're here applying some hard fast rule in order to make option D correct.

The better the quality of original carpentry in a building, the less likely that building is to fall into disuse and be demolished. - how does it say something like in your analogy only those books of X are preserved now which were his best and the rest of the books were actually discarded...NOT able to relate these two parts.

Option D could also mean that most of the pre-1930 hotels exist today because of having superior quality of original carpentry...!

Please help. I'm really having a difficult shot to understand it.
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bagdbmba wrote:
egmat wrote:
So, now if we consider period from 1600 onwards, the same logic will apply as the logic applied in case of 100 years and 1800 A.D.

The more you increase the average life, the more back in the time we'll need to go because in case of higher average life, we'll have more older hotels still in existence.


Hi Chiranjeev,
Thanks for the analysis.+1

I got your analogy clearly but still having some confusion on the above part...it seems to me that we're here applying some hard fast rule in order to make option D write.

The better the quality of original carpentry in a building, the less likely that building is to fall into disuse and be demolished. - how does it say something like in your analogy only those books of X are preserved now which were his best and the rest of the books were actually discarded...NOT able to relate these two parts.

Option D could also mean that most of the pre-1930 hotels exist today because of having superior quality of original carpentry...!

Please help. I'm really having a difficult shot to understand it.


Ok. Let me use some numbers here.

Suppose there are 1000 hotels that were created before 1930 and 1000 hotels that were created after 1930.

For the hotels created before 1930,

A1:Quality of 300 hotels = 100
A2: Quality of 400 hotels = 200
A3: Quality of 300 hotels = 300

Average quality = 200

For the hotels created after 1930,

B1: Quality of 300 hotels = 100
B2: Quality of 400 hotels = 200
B3: Quality of 300 hotels = 300

Average quality = 200

So, average quality for hotels from both period is same.

Now, let's bring option D into the picture.

The better the quality of original carpentry in a building, the less likely that building is to fall into disuse and be demolished

Now, tell me of hotels created before 1930, which hotels are more likely to exist now. A3? Right. After that? A2?

So, now let's suppose currently we have the following pre-1930 hotels left

A1: 150 (half of them got demolished)
A2: 300 (25% of them got demolished)
A3: 300 (None of them got demolished)

Average quality now = 2.2

For hotels built after 1930

B1: 240 (20% of them got demolished) (Since these hotels are built after 1930 and are newer than those built before 1930, the ratio of hotels that got demolished will be lower)
B2: 360 (10% of them got demolished)
B3: 300 (None of them got demolished)

Average quality now: 2.06

So, even though initial quality is same, because of option D, you see final quality of pre-1930 better than post-1930 hotels.

Just to emphasize, I did not chose these number to make option D correct; I chose them out of logic.

Let me know if it addresses your doubts.

Thanks,
Chiranjeev
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