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Re: Alternative approach to GMAT SC? MGMAT not helping much. [#permalink]
Hi NewSc2, I think you are doing quite fine except SC & with a little effort on SC, you can reach a reasonable score.

My input in red below.

NewSc2 wrote:
Can anybody recommend some strategies and resources?

P.S. I'm a native speaker. I think what might be screwing me over is my job and background -- one of my primary job responsibilities is to write copies and ad material for my company. Everything I write needs to be concise and have flow. I'm also a big fan of William Zinsser's writing books, and these long-form, technical, detailed sentences are really throwing me off.

I went through the same phase initially but then after a lot of practice on this forum, I managed to bring my SC % up. Have you used the tag function here at this forum?? Do use that & you will feel great. There are every type of SC with detail explanations. Participate in forum & you will feel the difference.


P.P.S. Oh, and if it helps, I'm consistently finishing the Verbal section with lots of time left on the clock. Like 10 minutes or more. Probably a holdover habit from rushing through the Quant section, where I'm always left rushing through the last 5-10 problems.
If you are finishing in or before time, that's not a problem. Infact that's a great point, provided you are not doing bad in rushing through the problems.


Best of luck & keep us posted!!!
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Re: Alternative approach to GMAT SC? MGMAT not helping much. [#permalink]
NewSc2 wrote:
PadawanOfTheGMAT wrote:
That's strange. With MGMAT SC I definitely improved my skills.

Maybe you went too fast and fell in their silly traps. It's very easy to get caught in SC.


How did you study off the MGMAT SC? Just read it a few times over? Take note of anything in particular?

As (or is it "like"? arrgghhh) I said, I'm not fully done with the book. I didn't fully grasp some of the quant books until I read over their advanced sections. Might finish up the book and do a couple quick re-reviews. I study pretty slowly though; it's taken me about a week to cover the first 10 chapters from MGMAT SC.


People normally do go through SC book atleast twice, some go through even 3-4 times. If you do make notes while studying, that will be great too. Error log is also a must, so do maintain one.
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Re: Alternative approach to GMAT SC? MGMAT not helping much. [#permalink]
I would recommend making notes while reading the book, very helpful
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Re: Alternative approach to GMAT SC? MGMAT not helping much. [#permalink]
1
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I had a similar problem when using the SC guide. I'd never formally learned grammar so all the "present past perfect" and "gerunds" thrown around in the answer explanations really didn't help me (I felt like I was having to learn a second language so massive kudos to the non-native speakers using this book!).

Unfortunately I didn't have time to go through the book a second time before my GMAT as I bought the book quite late, but I would agree with the comments above regarding taking notes and re-covering the content. I came away from my one (and only) pass through the book with maybe half a dozen high level notes some of which were broken down into 3 or 4 sub rules. This seemed to be good enough for me personally in changing my average performance into pretty good although if I'd had time to cover it again I do think I'd have improved.

I would suggest that you do look at the OG12/Verbal guide questions each section points you to though as I didn't find the exercises in the book that helpful in linking the content to GMAT style questions.
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Re: Alternative approach to GMAT SC? MGMAT not helping much. [#permalink]
Yes I do take notes. The book has too much information to review it more than once, so I read my notes.
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Re: Alternative approach to GMAT SC? MGMAT not helping much. [#permalink]
Hi NewSc2,
Since mgmat SC is not working for You i will say you to try out GMAT PILL method for SC..You can seperately buy that SC part for soething arnd 74$ i dnt know exactly.Its a video based concept explaination method and their SC has very GOOD reviews..they have explaination for 600 level and 700 level questions also..so that will be of great help to u.. :)
Also they have recently introduced quiz portion....

thanx
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Re: Alternative approach to GMAT SC? MGMAT not helping much. [#permalink]
Hi Sandeep, can u share your experience for gmat pill?? What were the pros & cons in your opinion??

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Re: Alternative approach to GMAT SC? MGMAT not helping much. [#permalink]
I have done Mgmat Sc 3 times and my accuracy on OG12 is 63%. I have started Mgmat SC again with a hope to improve this % in my second attempt of OG.

My advice to you is to persevere and take help from any grammar book for the topics you do not understand from Mgmat SC. It is quite comprehensive and with revision it will certainly improve.

Taking notes will help you too.
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Re: Alternative approach to GMAT SC? MGMAT not helping much. [#permalink]
Hussain could you please provide more details how you improved your Sc with some stats such as you were at x% accuracy and with y% of preparation and following z approach you were able to hit the rate of a%.
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Re: Alternative approach to GMAT SC? MGMAT not helping much. [#permalink]
besides problem sets from gmat club and other books you could also try different ways to improve like reading periodical such as wallstreetjournal or even a good book. I know when i was "stuck" at SC i took Knewton and being taught by someone else opened my eyes to SC and it just "clicked".
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Re: Alternative approach to GMAT SC? MGMAT not helping much. [#permalink]
shaselai wrote:
besides problem sets from gmat club and other books you could also try different ways to improve like reading periodical such as wallstreetjournal or even a good book. I know when i was "stuck" at SC i took Knewton and being taught by someone else opened my eyes to SC and it just "clicked".

Would you recommend MGMAT SC or Knewton for SC?

Thanks,
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Re: Alternative approach to GMAT SC? MGMAT not helping much. [#permalink]
I'll suggest you to try Veritas guides, I have heard great things about those guides.
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Re: Alternative approach to GMAT SC? MGMAT not helping much. [#permalink]
I really did not like the MGMAT SC either. I feel like it overcomplicated things and quite a bit was not intuitive. I suggest you try the Powerscore SC. I only used the Powerscore CR but their style of teaching was very easy to follow.
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Re: Alternative approach to GMAT SC? MGMAT not helping much. [#permalink]
Haha! I just completed my first MGMAT test and got the same score as you 630! I also finished 20 minutes before the bomb goes off. My SC was okay though (I only studied 2 chapters of MGMAT SC), but my CR (studied with PowerScore CR) was bad.
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Re: Alternative approach to GMAT SC? MGMAT not helping much. [#permalink]
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Hello, everyone:

Good thread - I've heard pretty good things about MGMAT's SC lessons, but one thing I'd caution anyone against with Sentence Correction is simply trying to memorize their way to success on these questions. It can be done...but for most of us it's probably pretty inefficient to try to brute-force learn all of the individual rules and applications.

You'll find that the GMAT:

    Frequently tests the same few major error categories - Subject/Verb and Pronoun Agreement; Parallel Structure (comparisons, lists, etc.); Verb Tense; Modifiers; Logical Meaning of sentences
    Sporadically includes rare idioms (e.g. instead of vs. rather than; different from vs. different than)
    Almost never requires you to know one of the rare idioms, and almost always gives you an opportunity to avoid those by focusing more on the higher-level, recurring errors
    Very frequently tries to "hide" the major errors by including excess description, idiomatic differences in answer choices, etc.
So, as you study you should attempt to become really comfortable with the major errors, and train yourself to look proactively for those. Those are the things you know you can do well...the more obscure idiomatic or stylistic things can help you if you know it, but can hurt you if you put too much time and energy into trying to learn those at all costs. You'll end up "missing the forest for the trees" by overlooking major error types while stressing over the obscurities.

While you're looking for those major errors, see if you can shorten the sentences by glossing over adjectives, adverbs, and modifiers-without-errors. If you're comfortable with the major errors, they'll pop off the screen for you when you're reading fewer words.

For example:

Questions on the GMAT's Sentence Correction section, which employs descriptive modifiers like this one that I'm currently typing to obscure major errors like subject-verb agreement, tests your problem solving skills by requiring you to find the major errors despite long, unwieldy sentences.

If you eliminate the modifier in commas, and streamline the subject ("on the GMAT's SC section is also a modifier), it should be pretty clear that "Questions...tests..." is wrong. Questions would have to go with "test" - a major subject/verb agreement error that the GMAT will try to disguise on you.
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Re: Alternative approach to GMAT SC? MGMAT not helping much. [#permalink]
Hi Brian -- I'm not sure if I just ran into a bad slate of MGMAT SC questions on the CAT exam, but I pretty easily notice all the large errors. The singular/plural actions, modifiers modifying a questionable clause, etc. Those are the first things I check for, and can easily cross them off.

Looking back on the SC questions I got wrong -- most of them I crossed off 3 wrong choices, and went back and forth between 2 before picking the wrong one. Mostly idiomatic and concision rules. For example:

"People debate *whether* X led to Y"
- Instead of leaving it as *whether*, I chose *about whether*, because I didn't think "debate whether" was the correct idiomatic usage. I thought people "debate about" things. I was wrong (*whether* by itself was right). Another choice I was mulling over was *if*. The answer explained *if* is supposed to lead to a future proposition, but *if* in that context is (incorrectly) used all the time in casual language.

"*Though he had had* success in his ventures, X opted out to pursue a different venture in favor of less regulation."
- I thought "he had had" sounded incorrect. So I chose *Even though he had*, but the sentence is correct as is. To me, "Even though he had success" was still past perfect, but MGMAT explained that it was just simple past (he had). So "had had" was correct, even though it sounded casual.

I mean, I understand these explanations after the fact, but who doesn't? These aren't major rules that the sentences violate. Almost every other question I got wrong was down to a little detail like that. The large subject-verb disagreements, tenses, and modifiers aren't too hard to spot.
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Re: Alternative approach to GMAT SC? MGMAT not helping much. [#permalink]
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Hey, NewSC:

Thanks for sharing those. That second one is definitely a verb tense error that they try to disguise with the "it sounds wrong" use of the word "had" twice.

The original "had" is the verb ("had success" means "possessed success" or "experienced success"..."success" on its own is not a verb, so you need some kind of past-tense verb there), and because this sentence involves a clear sequence (the person had success before deciding to opt out), the past-perfect use of "had" is necessary to grammatically make that distinction. You could also rewrite it with a different verb:

Even though he had experienced success, he nonetheless opted out...

"had" as a past-tense verb just takes the place of "experienced". The "experienced" example should note the need for "had" as a past-perfect indicator...the double "had" is just a clever device to make a verb-tense question look like an awkwardness/style/it-sounds-wrong question.


On the first one, think about this for "if" - what's the difference between:

I debate if someone has a different viewpoint

and

We debated if a national healthcare system would work

In the first it's pretty clear that I debate whenever someone has a different viewpoint...that viewpoint is the condition under which I debate. In the second, you'd think that it's clear that we debated whether a national healthcare system, but "if" is an unclear modifier in that case - grammatically it isn't different from the first case (could it be that our group would debate if and only if a national healthcare system was working at the time?).

It may seem like a stretch, but if you look at "if..." as a modifier, you can check it off as a clarity-of-meaning issue. "If" leaves ambiguity as to the meaning, whereas "whether" does not. Putting a reason to those errors can be pretty helpful as you study, because then the test is much more logical than a quick-recall knowledge test. If the major error categories are your guiding principles, you can figure almost any of these out without having to rely on "that's just the rule". There are certainly some SC questions in the Official Guide and in other places that seem to require pure-memorization idioms, but I've talked to some of the authors of the GMAT and they maintain that SC is as much a problem solving test as any other question type, and that "higher-order thinking" is what they're after.


Please note, I'm not completely campaigning against knowing idioms...I'd just much rather that people on any section of the test try to place some order on why the rules they're using are logically true, since that's a skill that you can replicate over and over again, whereas just plain memorization can be hit-or-miss, and isn't what the GMAT is really about.
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Re: Alternative approach to GMAT SC? MGMAT not helping much. [#permalink]
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