Best for Management Consulting and/or Gen. Management.

Question

I would like to hear from the ambassadors / admits for the top schools as to which schools are the best for MC and GM.

The schools I have on my list as being good for these areas are:

Harvard
Yale
Tuck

Schools I specifically wonder about:
Kellogg
Chicago
Ross

I'm limiting myself to top 15 schools only because beyond those, I don't really see a good return on the investment of 2 years away from work and moving half way across the country.

riverripper · Answer

I would say both Kellogg and Chicago are going to be far above Yale and above Tuck. Yale cant remotely compete with either school in MC opportunities. While Tuck is a great school the brands of Kellogg and GSB both give them an advantage. I would say after HBS, Kellogg has the strongest brand in management on your list, followed pretty closely by GSB. I would actually put Ross above Yale in the MBA world, slightly (yes we all know Yale's brand trumps U Mich)...personally I also would rather spend two years in Ann Arbor than New Haven.

Just look at the various schools employment reports and it will backup what I am saying. It seems that MC placement tends to really follow overall rankings.

Tuck is known as a GM school but I would still have a hard time taking it over Chicago which is considered a Finance school above all else. Also, despite being known as the top marketing school, MC is the most popular destination for graduates. So in my opinion of the schools you listed I would say that opinions of schools management reputation would be...

1) HBS 
2) Kellogg
3) Chicago GSB
4) Tuck
5) Ross
6) Yale

From what I remember of your profile you are married so I would say big plus for looking at Kellogg. You have a slightly unusual profile, another thing Kellogg seems to appreciate more than other schools. Also you are on the olderside and kellogg has the reputation of valuing experience. I think you are probably more competitve than you think...that said its going to be an incredibly tough year. Personally I would say though HBS is a great school your age really kills you there and its going to be insanely difficult to get into...I would only apply there if I couldnt live with the what if but trust me if you get into another top school that wouldnt be an issue. I am sure HBS is many people's dream school but you wont be nearly as competitive there as you would be at other schools.

Probably not what you want to hear but I would recommend going for Kellogg and Chicago in R1, you said your wife was a fan of the area and both would be great for you. If you want one of the top 3 schools, go with Wharton. Your age is going to be MUCH less of an issue...look at HBS's stats and 41% of their class graduated from college within the last 3 years and the average GPA was 3.66. Wharton has a great GM reputation and your chances would be 10x better. You never know you could get into HBS but personally I think the time an energy would be much better spent on a program you are going to be much more competitve at.

My suggestion:
R1. Kellogg, Chicago, Tuck, and Wharton if you want a dream school
R2. Ross, Yale, and then do one of the Duke/Darden

It might be worth going for Ross in R1, there is a lot of evidence that they are MUCH easier in R1 than R2...by much I mean something like 40% to 10% admit rates. Someone (I think dosa don) found numbers that showed this to be true.

fooFighter · Answer

Hey River I've been search but I cant find the post where dosa proves that admission in Ross is 40% in R1.

Also where would Darden lie in the top schools for MC/Mgt?

jallenmorris · Answer

riverripper - thanks for this awesome advice. I agree Yale and Tuck are further down on the list. Now that you mention it, I have heard that Kellogg is a great GM school. I'm more interested in GM simply because I'm afraid the MC life would be far more demanding than the GM in that GM is not likely to have as many days away from home throughout the year. (Correct me if I'm wrong on that view.) One reason that I do like Yale and Tuck is the smaller location and class size. I went to a small UG and really loved the small atmosphere. I had some classes with just 4 people in them! I don't expect that same level of "small-ness" but for me, Tuck is appealing in that sense. I also grew up in a town of 1,500 people. While i've been living in Oklahoma City for the past 5 years, going to a small town again for 2 years isn't going to kill me.

Yes, my wife does like Chicago because she has family in SE Wisconsin that she hasn't seen but once in the last 12 years since she moved away from there. I could also use some advice on how to persuade her that I will be able to find a job that pays very well. I have existing loans from law school and a little from UG and she wants to make sure that we can pay back all loans MBA and meet our budget. A great thing to think about, and I'm confident with looking at placement statistics that I'll be able to earn enough to cover everything, but I've not been able to calm her fears. I'm not exactly sure what would reassure her, but showing her the % of graduates with offers pre-graduation hasn't helped. The average salaries doesn't help because she says "That's average and you don't know that you'll be at or above the average." I agree, but I also don't think that's a reason to just pass on an opportunity like this. I will have to work like crazy to be one of the best in school and get the best jobs.

I'm frustrated because I can't seem to get her to come to any conclusions about her opinion with regard to me attending b-school. This spring she was fine with it, and now she seems to be having so many reservations, but can't pinpoint what signifance her concerns have. Anyone else dealing with this with their signifiance other?

riverripper · Answer

Darden is usually grouped with the Duke, Ross, Yale area...It seems a lot of people equate it to Duke, probably since they are close together. I think Darden might be a little stronger in the finance area, while Duke is stronger in Marketing but overall I would say they are pretty much on par. Darden does have one advantage when it comes to MC, its a case school so every class is like a prep for the interview process. Its probably not a huge advantage but I think it can make some people much more confident with their performance, you know practice makes perfect mentality. Foo, I was wrong it was around 30%, here is a look at Ross's numbers and how they broke down. Its really encouraging if you are an american female applying R1...not so much if you are an international male applying in R2 or R3 p396881#p396881

jallenmorris · Answer

I think the case method is absolutely great. I haven't read anywhere that Pelihu has said it, but I have to imagine that is one of the things that attracted him to Darden. Since he was a lawyer he had experience with the case method in law school. The case method is awesome (with regard to law school). I can't speak to how it's used in b-school as I'm not there. In law school, we always had to be prepared because you just never knew when the professor would call on you. I had one professor that would make us stand if called on for the entire class. If you couldn't answer the question he posed, he called on another student and made that student stand as well. By the end of the class, out of about 85 students, about 30 of them were standing and you couldn't pick up your book to read about the case while standing. If you did, automatic volunteer for the next class' discussion. If you knew it, you had better know it well. If you didn't you stood there looking like an idiot for the entire class and he'd periodically come back to the unprepared person and say "Does any of this sound familiar to you? Would you care to add something?"

Plus you get an actual dialogue going among the students and professor discussing different aspects of the facts involved. What one person thought of, another may never have thought of, but it gives ever student a chance to learn from that one that had a unique perspective. It's so much easier to pay attention for longer periods of time because 1) You don't know when you'll get called on 2) You can volunteer (not too often or you look like a putz kiss-up) and be actively invovled in the discussion rather than just listen to the professor lecture and 3) You train your mind to actively listen and analyze all the time. You hear one thing a student says, you have to analyze it to see if you think it's full of BS or if there is a different part of the case that goes against what the student says. I imagine that on the job, this is a very valuable skill because you process things on-the-fly rather than gather a bunch of information, process it, and then make a decision. It seems to me that lectures lend itself more to the gather the information, process it, learn it, repeat it on the exam with analysis.

I would love to go to a case method school.

fooFighter · Answer

I couldnt have said it better (about Darden). Totally agree with ya there.

And thanks for the link, even more motivation to apply to all the schools I really want in R1. Hopefully I wont have to go to R2.

riverripper · Answer

I am married so I went through the convincing my wife it was a good idea. Obviously showing employment stats helps but I think what sealed it was the fact that she knew I did not enjoy my current career and really was sick of it. In my opinion having job satisfaction was more important than getting a raise. Financially this is a dumb move for us on a lot of levels. 150k worth of student loans, that and more on missed salary, the fact we are trying to sell our house in the worst real estate market in decades and are taking a hit there...it just doesnt seem logical to do. However, my wife realized that this would help me do something I would much rather do with my life and she thought it would be fun for her too. Now I dont know how other schools are but Kellogg has (I think) the highest rate of people bringing signficant others to school with them, heck during their weekly gathering most spouses seemed to show up and tons of kids were there running around. For being a large school it seems very tight knit and family oriented. One thing to realize is that while its as close to Chicago as GSB almost everyone lives in Evanston. We already know 3 other couples living in our building (only has like 40 units) and barely anyone has started to arrive...heck I think every GMATClub member going there lives within a few blocks of me.

I went to about as small an undergrad as you will find...I my class was like 200 people or so and many students went out to sea on a ship every year so thats about as tight knit as you can get when you cram 600 students on a 550ft long vessel. But even the largest MBA program is not huge, I mean HBS has what around 2000 students so that would be considered a small undergrad. The advantage over Yale and Tuck is that in a big city your wife will most likely find a better job that pays well (assuming she plans on working). Hanover and New Haven wont offer the same opportunities to her that Chicago, NYC, Boston, and even Philly will. Unless she is in healthcare (nurse/doctor), a teacher, or can telecommute Tuck really might kill her career for a few years...thats what drove me away from apply there.

Take a look at Kellogg's employment report it gives you the most detail of any schools report available. Most GM positions for the big name companies that recruit at the schools like Kellogg, Chicago, Wharton etc. are in the 100k range. Unless of course you go overseas. 
 https://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/Programs/FullTimeMBA/Why_Kellogg_MBA/~/media/Files/FTMBA/Employment_Report_2007.ashx

Just makesure you involve your wife or you could be in some trouble once you get in and she starts second guessing. Let her have a vote on schools, give her honest pros and cons of schools and how they relate to her. Check out if schools have groups for people with kids (all have spouses groups) and also see what services they provide her...I dont think any schools compete with Kellogg and Tuck in terms of what spouses are allowed but you may be surprised at just how supportive a lot of schools are of families. I mean Kellogg allows significant others to go on their GIM trips (consulting trips abroad)...they can even take part in the class part if they want to.
Kelloggs JV page (kellogg kids is there too)  https://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/student/club/joint/index.html

Raabend · Answer

Hey RR, Is Kellogg paying you for this? If not, they should!!!!! :-D

jallenmorris · Answer

Thanks river, that's great advice. I have moved Kellogg onto my list for R1. I may take Yale of and make it a R2.

1) HBS
2) Kellogg
3) Tuck
4) Yale

My wife isn't working outside the home right now. She's raising our kids and starting a business of her own. She's a teacher turned children's clothing designer. She's really good at it and focuses only on girls clothing. I want her to be able to get this business going even more and since she sells everything web-based, location doesn't really matter for her. If we lived in Chicago, or Evanston, I think she could find some boutique places in the city that might be interested in selling her designs. I know there are so many opportunities for her and I want her to be happy. I know our kids will be happy. They probably won't even remember b-school. My daughter might, she'll be 5 1/2 when I graduate and my son will be 3 1/2.

I definitely will involve her in the decision process and researching b-schools. She's a slow starter when it comes to change. Hesitant at first, but then when she gets sold on the idea, she's total ready for it.

As for the loans, I plan on spending about $2k a month on loans just to get them paid off as quickly as possible. Part of it doesn't make sense to me in that if I get a really great % on my educational loans, why pay those off so quickly. Pick higher % items to pay off faster, but I just want it done with and paid off. And this will also be in a much higher cost of living city than Oklahoma.

riverripper · Answer

One thing you should keep an eye out for is housing options for families near the schools. Some schools have student housing which might meet your needs and are typically cheaper than typical rent for the location. I know both Tuck and Kellogg have pretty good options but not sure if they have 3 bedroom places so your kids may end up sharing a room but they are young enough they could handle it. A 3 bedroom near the schools you are looking at would really be expensive...you could go to Duke buy a house and have a mortgage that would be less than what you would pay for rent in the places you are looking. Having two kids definitely adds to the challenge.

I would suggest you dont pay down any loans you have right now since the interest rate you have is most likely a LOT better than what current rates are. I know my wife's student loans are at like 1.5% or something crazy like that. Now rates are 6.8% for staffords and 8.5% for grad plus.

I would take a look at Duke and Ross if I were you...the cost of living would be better, especially at Duke. Obviously they wont give you quiet as many opportunities as some of the other school. However, your chances of getting a scholarship are much better at schools like that if you get in and that might be something that you really would want to consider. Kellogg and HBS do give out need based scholarships and you might be in a position to qualify for those especially if you dont have huge savings...if you own a house I would stash money in there so it doesnt look like you have as much free cash.

jallenmorris · Answer

Thanks. I'll look at the housing issue. There are so many smaller details to consider. I think it is the small things that make the experience at one school better than another. All of them are going to give quality educations and each will create great opportunities upon graduation, but the experience while there could be very different for me even if just because of housing conditions or commute, etc. As for making it look like I have less cash, that's not a problem :-D

.

tnttijji · Answer

The More I read about Kellog...the More I love it...

RR// Thanks for your insight...

Cheers,
Tijji.

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