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RAHKARP27071989 wrote:
If we have options like-

(C) scientists have gathered evidence suggesting that complex life-forms emerged much earlier than
(D) scientists have gathered evidence that suggests complex life-forms emerged much earlier than

Is there any difference between two OR both are exactly same..??

Please assist.

Thanks and Regrds
Prakhar

Dear Prakhar,
I'm happy to respond. :-)

First of all, I will point out a grammar mistake in your question. It's not
If we have options like-
It should be:
If we have options such as-

The GMAT is usually fussy about having a "that" to begin a "that" clause, such as the one beginning with "complex life-forms . . ." The verb "to suggest" is a verb that takes "that"-clauses, and if this verb is followed by a clause, the GMAT usually wants the word "that" to appear.

(C) scientists have gathered evidence suggesting that complex life-forms emerged much earlier than . . . = perfect

(D1) scientists have gathered evidence that suggests complex life-forms emerged much earlier than . . . = missing the "that," probably not acceptable by GMAT standards

(D1) scientists have gathered evidence that suggests that complex life-forms emerged much earlier than . . . = technically correct, but awkward and redundant-sounding, so not ideal.

The best of the three is option (C).

Does all this make sense?
Mike :-)
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Anvesh2608 wrote:
Hi Chris,

'C' seems to say that scientists gathering the evidence is suggesting rather than evidence suggesting. What i mean is - it is gathering the evidence which is suggesting rather than the evidence itself. Isn't that the case? Am i reading it wrong?

I really liked your CR videos in Magoosh.

Thanks,
Anvesh

Dear Anvesh2608,

I'm happy to respond in the place of my friend & colleague Chris. :-)

Here's the relevant text of (C):
. . . scientists have gathered evidence suggesting that . . .
The participle modifier "suggesting" is touching the noun "evidence": this juxtaposition makes it pretty clear that the participle modifies the noun "evidence." Choice (A) & (B) have more ambiguous modification patterns--that's one of the many reasons these are incorrect.

Does this make sense?
Mike :-)
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Diwabag wrote:
EMPOWERgmatVerbal wrote:
Hello Everyone!

Let's tackle this question, one problem at a time, and narrow it down to the right answer! First, here's the original question with any major differences between the options highlighted in orange:

Digging in sediments in northern China, evidence has been gathered by scientists suggesting that complex life-forms emerged much earlier than they had previously thought.

(A) evidence has been gathered by scientists suggesting that complex life-forms emerged much earlier than they had
(B) evidence gathered by scientists suggests a much earlier emergence of complex life-forms than had been
(C) scientists have gathered evidence suggesting that complex life-forms emerged much earlier than
(D) scientists have gathered evidence that suggests a much earlier emergence of complex life-forms than that which was
(E) scientists have gathered evidence which suggests a much earlier emergence of complex life-forms than that

After a quick glance over the options, a few things jump out that we can focus on:

1. Starting with evidence vs. scientists
2. Using suggesting / suggests / that suggests / which suggests
3. Ending with than they had / than had been / than / than that which was / than that


Let's start with #1 on our list because no matter which one we choose, we'll throw out 2-3 options right away. If we look at the sentence as a whole, we see that it starts with a modifier:

Digging in sediments in northern China, evidence has been gathered by scientists suggesting that complex life-forms emerged much earlier than they had previously thought.

We know that whenever we use a modifier, the person/thing/word it's referring to MUST be directly before or after it. So - what/who is digging sediments in northern China? The scientists, or the evidence? The scientists! Let's see which options place the scientists directly after the modifier:

(A) evidence has been gathered by scientists suggesting that complex life-forms emerged much earlier than they had
(B) evidence gathered by scientists suggests a much earlier emergence of complex life-forms than had been
(C) scientists have gathered evidence suggesting that complex life-forms emerged much earlier than
(D) scientists have gathered evidence that suggests a much earlier emergence of complex life-forms than that which was
(E) scientists have gathered evidence which suggests a much earlier emergence of complex life-forms than that

We can rule out options A & B because they don't place the scientists directly next to the phrase that's modifying them.

Now that we only have 3 options left, let's look at #3 on our list: how they end the phrase. It looks like some of them use the pronoun "that," while others don't. Let's take a closer look at each option to make sure the pronoun "that" is clearly referring back to something. If it's not, then we must rule it out!

(C) scientists have gathered evidence suggesting that complex life-forms emerged much earlier than
This is CORRECT! There is no pronoun here to confuse readers. It's clear, concise, and conveys the most logical meaning.

(D) scientists have gathered evidence that suggests a much earlier emergence of complex life-forms than that which was
This is INCORRECT because it has the vague pronoun "that." It's not entirely clear what "that" is referring to here: evidence, complex life-forms, scientists? If it's not 100% clear, it's not a good idea to include the pronoun!

(E) scientists have gathered evidence which suggests a much earlier emergence of complex life-forms than that
This is INCORRECT because it uses the vague pronoun "that." It's also awkward to say "than that previously thought," so let's also rule this one out.

There you have it - option C is the best choice! It places the antecedent next to the modifier and doesn't use vague pronouns, making this option the clearest and most concise option!


Don't study for the GMAT. Train for it.



I noticed that you didn't tackle the "suggest" part in the choices. Could you elaborate? Thanks.


Hi Diwabag!

Thanks for your question! Sometimes, if we tackle easier grammar concepts, we don't have to deal with all of them. So in case you were more comfortable tackling the "suggest" section, let's break that one down:

(A) Digging in sediments in northern China, evidence has been gathered by scientists suggesting that complex life-forms emerged much earlier than they had previously thought.
This is INCORRECT because the -ing modifier (suggesting that complex life-forms emerged...) is tied to the word directly preceding it, which in this case is "scientists." The scientists didn't suggest...the evidence did! Therefore, this is wrong because it creates a modifier-antecedent problem.

(B) Digging in sediments in northern China, evidence gathered by scientists suggests a much earlier emergence of complex life-forms than had been previously thought.
This is actually OKAY how it's written. However, we would end up ruling it out later because "evidence" shouldn't be the antecedent for the modifier "Digging sediments in northern China."

(C) Digging in sediments in northern China, scientists have gathered evidence suggesting that complex life-forms emerged much earlier than previously thought.
This is CORRECT because the -ing modifier is next to "evidence," which is what it's modifying.

(D) Digging in sediments in northern China, scientists have gathered evidence that suggests a much earlier emergence of complex life-forms than that which was previously thought.
This is actually OKAY as it is. However, you would later rule it out later because it has the vague pronoun at the end of the phrase that's underlined.

(E) Digging in sediments in northern China, scientists have gathered evidence which suggests a much earlier emergence of complex life-forms than that previously thought.
This is INCORRECT because using a "which" modifier here doesn't work. By starting the modifier with "which," we're saying the information about the evidence isn't necessary to the meaning of the sentence. What the evidence is about IS important, so it needs to stay. You'd also rule this one out later because of the vague pronoun at the end of the underlined portion.

There you have it - option C is still the best option. You would still have to go through another round or two of eliminations to get to the correct choice, so it doesn't really save you any time. However, if going this route was easy for you, go for it!

I hope this helps!
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waytowharton wrote:
GMATNinja KarishmaB mikemcgarry ChrisLele ExpertsGlobal5

Would option E be incorrect, if we had scientists instead of that?

Modified option E - Digging in sediments in northern China, scientists have gathered evidence which suggests a much earlier emergence of complex life-forms than "SCIENTISTS" previously thought.

I am not clear whether option E has pronoun error or some other error. Is the comparison correct phrase(much earlier emergence of complex life-forms) is compared with clause(scientists previously thought)?

Thanks in advance!


Hello waytowharton,

We hope this finds you well.

To answer your query, the primary error in Option E is that it uses "which" rather than "that" to refer to information that is vital to the core meaning of the sentence - the fact that the evidence suggests that complex life-forms emerged much earlier than previously thought.

To understand the concept of "Which" vs "That" on GMAT, you may want to watch the following video (~2 minutes):



All the best!
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woohoo921 wrote:
Thank you! So, there are no examples that would be correct of just using "which" by itself in a sentence? (not "in which" or "on which"...just "which")


Sure there are. In fact, there's one in the post to which you're replying right now: Chess is played on an eight-by-eight board, which can also be used for checkers.
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woohoo921 wrote:
I am sorry for the back-and-forth and thank you for all of your time.


You are very welcome. Thank you for the kind consideration.



Quote:
I apologize, but I meant "which" WITHOUT a comma...
The example you provided is a "comma which". So, I am assuming there would not be a correct scenario in this case.



This point is addressed in the same post. This is the relevant part:

RonTargetTestPrep wrote:
According to the (American) style conventions observed by the GMAT,
"which" introduces NON-essential modifiers (WITH COMMA),
"that" introduces ESSENTIAL modifiers (WITHOUT COMMA).


(Be aware—Sources from Britain and former British Commonwealth countries will regularly use "which" in both of these contexts.)


To confirm—You won't see plain "which" without a comma on the GMAT, but you'll see it quite often if you're reading an English-language source from a country other than the U.S. or Canada.
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mikemcgarry wrote:
bagdbmba wrote:
Digging in sediments in northern China, evidence has been gathered by scientists suggesting that complex life-forms emerged much earlier than they had previously thought.

(A) evidence has been gathered by scientists suggesting that complex life-forms emerged much earlier than they had
(B) evidence gathered by scientists suggests a much earlier emergence of complex life-forms than had been
(C) scientists have gathered evidence suggesting that complex life-forms emerged much earlier than
(D) scientists have gathered evidence that suggests a much earlier emergence of complex life-forms than that which was
(E) scientists have gathered evidence which suggests a much earlier emergence of complex life-forms than that

I'm not able to understand why C is preferred over E?
IMO, in option E -emergence of complex life-forms actually (per the evidence) is compared to that previously thought. It seems more clear to me where as option C sounds better but misses 'that' I guess.

Please explain.

krakgmat wrote:
Mike, Can you please clarify the question below. Especially, why choice D is not correct? Thank you for your help. Thanks

Dear bagdbmba & krakgmat,
I'm happy to respond. :-) You are asking about (E) & (D) respectively, so I will ignore (A) & (B), which are clearly wrong.

First of all, look at the split "evidence that" vs. "evidence which" ---- which of these two is correct? See these two posts:
https://magoosh.com/gmat/2012/that-vs-which-on-the-gmat/
https://magoosh.com/gmat/2012/gmat-gramm ... modifiers/
The fact that there is no comma following the word "evidence" means that the modifier following it is a vital noun modifier, a.k.a. a restrictive modifier. The GMAT always uses "that" for restrictive/vital modifiers, and always uses "which" for non-restrictive/non-vital modifiers. Thus, the "which" is wrong here: that's one problem with (E).

Here's the larger issue. Think about it this way. Let's state the sentence without dropping any of the repeated words in parallel. Let's pretend we can't omit anything and have to state everything explicitly. Then, we would have:

Digging in sediments in northern China, scientists have gathered evidence suggesting that complex life-forms emerged much earlier than when complex life-forms were previously thought to emerge.

Clearly, that's very awkward and much too long. We are allowed to drop everything among those orange words that are a repeat or are obvious form context. The only piece that is truly different from the part before the word "than" is "previously thought", so that's all we need.

(C) ..... than previously thought. Clear, concise, unambiguous, and grammatically correct.
(D) ..... than that which was previously thought --- very wordy, and it's unclear to what the word "that" refers
(E) ..... than that previously thought -- it's unclear to what the word "that" refers.
Think about "that previously thought" --- to what does the "that" refer? What exactly is "previously thought"? What did the scientist think at an earlier time? This really refers to the verb, to the action of the verb "emerged" --- previously, scientists thought that these critters emerged later, and now the evidence suggest that they emerged earlier. The entire comparison revolves around the verb --- when did they emerge. We cannot use the pronoun "that" to refer to the action of a verb. If we want to use "that" correctly, we would have to change around the whole sentence -----

..... gathered evidence suggesting that complex life-forms had an emergence that was much earlier than that previously thought.

Now, that version is an abominable trainwreck. Even in this version, that word "that" is entirely optional --- the phrase "than previously thought" is still 100% correct by itself, but at least in this sentence, the "that" isn't absolutely wrong when it's included, because there's a clear noun antecedent. In choices (D) & (E), the word "that" is 100% wrong, because it is trying to refer to the action of a verb, which is not allowed.

This is why (C) is not only the best answer but the only possible answer.

Does all this make sense?
Mike :-)


Hi Mike,

I haven't seen any consideration for the fact the D and E use "evidence suggesting" instead of the phrase in C.
Is this phrase acceptable?
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mikemcgarry wrote:
bagdbmba wrote:
Hi Mike,
Thanks for your detailed explanation.

I've couple of doubts in what you've mentioned -
i] You've here mentioned "The GMAT always uses "that" for restrictive/vital modifiers, and always uses "which" for non-restrictive/non-vital modifiers. Thus, the "which" is wrong here: that's one problem with (E). ". But in the first article that you've shared, in the example "1) Bartholomew doesn’t like people who talk too much." - 'who' without commas, is a restrictive modifier and this sentence is correct per GMAT. Right?

That means there are exceptions. We can't just eliminate option E because 'who' is NOT preceded by a 'comma' ?

ii] 'that' in option E refers to the emergence of complex life-forms I think and it's not verb. Right? Please clarify.

Dear bagdbmba,
Hold on! The rules for "who" are NOT the same as the rules for "which". In the case of "who", (or "when" or "where") we have only one choice, so we have to use the same word in both restrictive and non-restrictive context, and the only thing that tells us the difference is the use of punctuation.
.... the modern house, where Frank lives. (Only one modern house exists in this context, and as it happens, Frank lives there.)
.... the modern house where Frank lives. (Frank's modern house, as oppose to any other modern house.)
With "that"/"which", we get two words, and the convention that the GMAT follows is that "that" is always used in the restrictive case (no comma), and "which" is always used in the non-restrictive case (with a comma). There are no exceptions. What happens with the other relative pronouns and adverbs is not a guide for what happens with these two words.
Does all this make sense?
Mike :-)


Thanks Mike for your excellent clarifications :-)

I think you've missed out the somehow my second concern. Would you please help me understand the same?
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mikemcgarry wrote:
bagdbmba wrote:
bagdbmba wrote:
ii] 'that' in option E refers to the emergence of complex life-forms I think and it's not verb. Right? Please clarify.

Thanks Mike for your excellent clarifications :-)

I think you've missed out the somehow my second concern. Would you please help me understand the same?

Dear bagdbmba
I'm sorry to miss that. I'm happy to help. :-)

Here's version (E) of the sentence.
(E) Digging in sediments in northern China, scientists have gathered evidence which suggests a much earlier emergence of complex life-forms than that previously thought.

The word "that" is a pronoun, and its antecedent is the noun "emergence". This is a bit tricky --- "emergence" is an "action" word, but "emerge" is the verb form and "emergence" is the noun form. As a noun, "emergence" can be the antecedent of the pronoun.

This is exactly part of what make (E) one of the less desirable answers. Whenever we use the noun-forms or adjectival forms of action words, instead of the verb-forms, that makes the sentence longer and clunkier. See:
https://magoosh.com/gmat/2013/active-verbs-on-the-gmat/

Finally, notice that the verb "suggest" can take either a noun clause or a plain noun. The noun clause properly would begin with "that" (as the OA (C) has) --- then the noun-clause, like all clauses, would have a full [noun]+[verb] structure, allowing for the use of the verb form "emerge." By contrast, choice (E) simply gives the verb "suggest" a plain noun "emergence" as a direct object.

Does all this make sense?
Mike :-)



Hi Mike,
This time the explanation appears a bit complicated to me!! :roll:

However, I think we can right away reject E because it contains 'which' without a comma before it and GMAT doesn't allow the same as you've mentioned earlier...So, this can be sufficient reason to discard option E. Right?
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Hi egmat,
Thanks for the reply. Got you on other parts.
egmat wrote:
bagdbmba wrote:
And 'that' in option E refers to the emergence of complex life-forms I think and it's not verb. And that's what the scientists had previously thought of...Right? Please clarify.


Yes, 'that' in option E is a pronoun that refers to 'emergence', a meaning that is illogical in the context of this sentence.


But can you please let me know why do you say this as highlighted above ? Please share your analysis.

Appreciate your reply.
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bagdbmba wrote:
egmat wrote:
Thanks, bagdbmba, for posting your query here as suggested. :-) Also, thanks to Mike for the very comprehensive response!

bagdbmba: to put it simply, when 'which' refers to the noun before it, there should be a comma between 'which' and the noun. Secondly, 'that' is incorrect in option E since it is functioning as a pronoun in this option, whereas the part after 'than' should actually refer to what the scientists had previously thought.

I hope this helps with your doubt! :-)

Regards,
Meghna


Thanks Meghna for your reply.

So what I understand from your reply is 'which' can even refer to something else (NOT noun) before it. And in that case it doesn't need to be preceded by a 'comma'. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

In comparison we mostly use 'that' as to indicate the noun replacement - as a pronoun in the second clause I think.
Let's consider this sentence : Temperature in Egypt is much higher than that in Moscow. ----> here 'that' represents 'Temperature' and is a pronoun. Right?

And 'that' in option E refers to the emergence of complex life-forms I think and it's not verb. And that's what the scientists had previously thought of...Right? Please clarify.


Yes, 'that' in option E is is incorrect since it should refer to what scientists had previously thought.

Regarding 'which', it should only refer to nouns. But there are cases where it is used in phrases such as "in which" or "for which", where there should not be a comma before it.

Regards,
Meghna
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ChrisLele wrote:
With this question we can quickly home in on the 2:3 split. Notice the participial phrase beginning 'digging...'. The word that comes directly after the comma must describe who is doing the digging. Clearly it is the archaeologists, not the evidence, that is digging. Thus we can eliminate (A), (B).

Both (D) and (E) are filled with unnecessary verbiage. (D) 'than that which..' and (E) '...than that.' We simply need a phrase that modifies 'emerge.' 'That' is used to describe comparisons between nouns. 'That' is a pronoun that is used to refers to a noun. Therefore (C) is best: 'emerged...than previously thought.'


E is wrong only because it is wordier than C and maybe a bit awkward too. I couldnt find any grammatical error E since "that" is correctly referring to "the emergence of complex life-forms".
Am I right in my thought process? many thanks.
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divineacclivity wrote:
ChrisLele wrote:
With this question we can quickly home in on the 2:3 split. Notice the participial phrase beginning 'digging...'. The word that comes directly after the comma must describe who is doing the digging. Clearly it is the archaeologists, not the evidence, that is digging. Thus we can eliminate (A), (B).

Both (D) and (E) are filled with unnecessary verbiage. (D) 'than that which..' and (E) '...than that.' We simply need a phrase that modifies 'emerge.' 'That' is used to describe comparisons between nouns. 'That' is a pronoun that is used to refers to a noun. Therefore (C) is best: 'emerged...than previously thought.'


E is wrong only because it is wordier than C and maybe a bit awkward too. I couldn't find any grammatical error E since "that" is correctly referring to "the emergence of complex life-forms".
Am I right in my thought process? many thanks.

Dear divineacclivity,
I'm Chris' friend and colleague, and I am happy to respond. :-)

The brilliant thing about this official question is that there are almost no grammatical mistakes. Choice (A) certainly questionable with the odd verb tense, but the other four answer choices are free of grammatical errors. Naive GMAT takers thing the GMAT SC is simply about grammar. It's not. Grammar is only one of many things tested on the GMAT SC. This particular question is testing one of the most tested areas, something called Rhetorical Construction. For a description of this, see:
https://magoosh.com/gmat/2013/rhetorical ... orrection/
Logic and Rhetorical Construction are each as important as, if not more important than, grammar on the GMAT SC.

So, yes, choice (E) is 100% grammatically correct and rhetorically, it is an absolute trainwreck. It is far too wordy, and using "emergence" rather than the verb form, "emerge", makes it indirect and awkward.

Does all this make sense?
Mike :-)
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Hi,

Can someone help me clarify why A/B are wrong b/c of the word "evidence" right after the comma and not "scientists"? Since Digging is a verb modifier, it doesn't need to touch anything it modifies, so theoretically, can't it modify "scientists" in A/B?
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russ9 wrote:
Hi,
Can someone help me clarify why A/B are wrong b/c of the word "evidence" right after the comma and not "scientists"? Since Digging is a verb modifier, it doesn't need to touch anything it modifies, so theoretically, can't it modify "scientists" in A/B?

Dear russ9
I'm happy to help. :-)

Here's the question again:
Digging in sediments in northern China, evidence has been gathered by scientists suggesting that complex life-forms emerged much earlier than they had previously thought.
(A) evidence has been gathered by scientists suggesting that complex life-forms emerged much earlier than they had
(B) evidence gathered by scientists suggests a much earlier emergence of complex life-forms than had been
(C) scientists have gathered evidence suggesting that complex life-forms emerged much earlier than
(D) scientists have gathered evidence that suggests a much earlier emergence of complex life-forms than that which was
(E) scientists have gathered evidence which suggests a much earlier emergence of complex life-forms than that


The participial phrase "digging in sediments in northern China" is, here, a noun modifier. It's true, participles and participial phrases can modifier either a noun, or a verb, or an entire clause. It's very subtle to interpret which a given participle modifies. Here, "digging" is a very concrete action. If the participle denotes a concrete action, and the action is clearly attributable to a particular noun in the sentence, then the participle is a noun modifier. Here, the "digging" had to be done by the "scientists," without a doubt. Therefore, the phrase is a noun modifier modifier "scientists" and therefore needs to touch that word. That's precisely why (A) & (B) make the misplaced modifier mistake. See:
https://magoosh.com/gmat/2013/modifiers- ... orrection/

Participle modifiers are not easy. You have to ask yourself: is this a concrete action performed by someone in the sentence? Then that's a noun-modifier. Participial phrases modify verbs and clauses when they explain a further consequence of some action, or something caused not by the subject but by the action of the independent clause.
Stocks felt sharply yesterday, sending the bond market into a panic.
What "[sent] the bond market into a panic"? Not the noun "stocks" but the entire action, the fact that stocks fell.
The governor signed the new crime bill, sending a strong message to his harshest critics.
The concrete action is the one in the main clauses, "signing." The participle communicated a less concrete, more far-reaching effect of the action in the main clause.

Does all this make sense?
Mike :-)
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Re: Digging in sediments in northern China, evidence has been gathered by [#permalink]
I have some thoughts about the correct sentece. If I am wrong, please correct me.

I remember a worng example in the MGMAT GUIDE: I see the man clenning the steps yeasterday. since the "cleaning" and "see" don't happen at the same time, it is wrong.

In the correct sentence: Digging in sediments in northern China, scientists have gathered evidence suggesting that complex life-formsemerged much earlier than previously thought.
In my views, "suggesting" and “gathered" also do not happened at the same time, but "suggest" is diffrent from the verb "clean" which happens instantly. "Suggest" is a constant action which happens all the time. Thus, that's why "suggesting" is correct here. Am I right?
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Re: Digging in sediments in northern China, evidence has been gathered by [#permalink]
Hi, is it right to use past perfect in choice A&B?
I think it's better to use past tense since there is "previously" in this sentence, am I right?
If not, please correct me. Thanks!
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Re: Digging in sediments in northern China, evidence has been gathered by [#permalink]
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