Last visit was: 31 Oct 2024, 17:13 It is currently 31 Oct 2024, 17:13
Close
GMAT Club Daily Prep
Thank you for using the timer - this advanced tool can estimate your performance and suggest more practice questions. We have subscribed you to Daily Prep Questions via email.

Customized
for You

we will pick new questions that match your level based on your Timer History

Track
Your Progress

every week, we’ll send you an estimated GMAT score based on your performance

Practice
Pays

we will pick new questions that match your level based on your Timer History
Not interested in getting valuable practice questions and articles delivered to your email? No problem, unsubscribe here.
Close
Request Expert Reply
Confirm Cancel
User avatar
ScottTargetTestPrep
User avatar
Target Test Prep Representative
Joined: 14 Oct 2015
Last visit: 31 Oct 2024
Posts: 19,675
Own Kudos:
23,711
 [8]
Given Kudos: 287
Status:Founder & CEO
Affiliations: Target Test Prep
Location: United States (CA)
Expert reply
Active GMAT Club Expert! Tag them with @ followed by their username for a faster response.
Posts: 19,675
Kudos: 23,711
 [8]
8
Kudos
Add Kudos
Bookmarks
Bookmark this Post
Most Helpful Reply
User avatar
avigutman
Joined: 17 Jul 2019
Last visit: 03 Oct 2024
Posts: 1,299
Own Kudos:
1,817
 [8]
Given Kudos: 66
Location: Canada
GMAT 1: 780 Q51 V45
GMAT 2: 780 Q50 V47
GMAT 3: 770 Q50 V45
Expert reply
GMAT 1: 780 Q51 V45
GMAT 2: 780 Q50 V47
GMAT 3: 770 Q50 V45
Posts: 1,299
Kudos: 1,817
 [8]
6
Kudos
Add Kudos
2
Bookmarks
Bookmark this Post
General Discussion
User avatar
MartyTargetTestPrep
User avatar
Target Test Prep Representative
Joined: 24 Nov 2014
Last visit: 11 Aug 2023
Posts: 3,479
Own Kudos:
5,302
 [4]
Given Kudos: 1,431
Status:Chief Curriculum and Content Architect
Affiliations: Target Test Prep
GMAT 1: 800 Q51 V51
Expert reply
GMAT 1: 800 Q51 V51
Posts: 3,479
Kudos: 5,302
 [4]
3
Kudos
Add Kudos
1
Bookmarks
Bookmark this Post
User avatar
bb
User avatar
Founder
Joined: 04 Dec 2002
Last visit: 31 Oct 2024
Posts: 39,143
Own Kudos:
76,026
 [3]
Given Kudos: 21,385
Location: United States (WA)
GMAT 1: 750 Q49 V42
GPA: 3
Products:
Expert reply
Active GMAT Club Expert! Tag them with @ followed by their username for a faster response.
GMAT 1: 750 Q49 V42
Posts: 39,143
Kudos: 76,026
 [3]
3
Kudos
Add Kudos
Bookmarks
Bookmark this Post
I also feel compelled to chime in :lol:

I am a bit of a dinosaur in terms of my prep methods - I studied with the Kaplan books back in the day. I am not sure if they have pioneered the idea of pre-thinking (they definitely did not call it that. Seems like an odd name) but they have definitely put as a strong point of their CR strategy and I felt it worked well for me. Yes, it is harder to do pre-thinking than to read the answer choices and then pick one (even a donkey could pick one out of 5) BUT you save time with pre-thinking on easy and medium CR questions and your accuracy goes up since you don't get tempted by tricky answer choices. It is not perfect - It does not work on hard Cos since they don't use the common logic patterns but with answering CR's in my own words, I could get through a CR in less than 1.5 mins on average, and that's with methodical reading of the passage and reading the question stem first, then passage, and then stem again. Often I could do it even faster.

I have seen a number of people struggle with it and say it is too hard or it does not work for them but I feel that's because they had some unaddressed issues and it was uncovering those. I have seen MGMAT also leverage this strategy so I don't know if it is a rookie mistake. I would say that if it is harder, then why not use it in practice and then transition off it? Seems making your practice harder would not really hurt?
User avatar
MartyTargetTestPrep
User avatar
Target Test Prep Representative
Joined: 24 Nov 2014
Last visit: 11 Aug 2023
Posts: 3,479
Own Kudos:
5,302
 [1]
Given Kudos: 1,431
Status:Chief Curriculum and Content Architect
Affiliations: Target Test Prep
GMAT 1: 800 Q51 V51
Expert reply
GMAT 1: 800 Q51 V51
Posts: 3,479
Kudos: 5,302
 [1]
1
Kudos
Add Kudos
Bookmarks
Bookmark this Post
bb
I have seen a number of people struggle with it and say it is too hard or it does not work for them but I feel that's because they had some unaddressed issues and it was uncovering those. I have seen MGMAT also leverage this strategy so I don't know if it is a rookie mistake. I would say that if it is harder, then why not use it in practice and then transition off it? Seems making your practice harder would not really hurt?
That transitioning off it approach is interesting, but to me, acing the GMAT is about finding the shortest, easiest ways to arrive at correct answers. So, ideally, practice for CR or any other type of GMAT questions would involve repeatedly going through the motions of finding the shortest, easiest path to the correct answer.

For more on my approach to CR, see this video. You'll see that a person using the approach will avoid traps and arrive at correct answers consistently.

User avatar
avigutman
Joined: 17 Jul 2019
Last visit: 03 Oct 2024
Posts: 1,299
Own Kudos:
1,817
 [4]
Given Kudos: 66
Location: Canada
GMAT 1: 780 Q51 V45
GMAT 2: 780 Q50 V47
GMAT 3: 770 Q50 V45
Expert reply
GMAT 1: 780 Q51 V45
GMAT 2: 780 Q50 V47
GMAT 3: 770 Q50 V45
Posts: 1,299
Kudos: 1,817
 [4]
4
Kudos
Add Kudos
Bookmarks
Bookmark this Post
MartyTargetTestPrep
For more on my approach to CR, see this video. You'll see that a person using the approach will avoid traps and arrive at correct answers consistently.

Thanks for posting the video, MartyTargetTestPrep.
Pre-thinking (at least the way I use that term) isn't about predicting the correct answer ahead of time (although that does tend to happen, as a by-product, on easy-medium questions).
Pre-thinking is about going through the reasoning, or, as you put it, focusing on logical implications and making common-sense connections at the argument phase, before going to the answer choices. I'm not sure whether that is what you were calling a gimmick, but if so, I would argue that using reasoning on a reasoning test is by definition not a gimmick.

The advantage of doing so before reading the answer choices is two-fold:
1. Doing so while reading each answer choice requires five iterations rather than just one.
2. Trap answers are designed to poison our mind and flip our logic upside down, so doing the thinking after reading an answer choice is much harder - it's like trying to avoid food poisoning after we've already eaten the expired item.

Regarding the claim that folks might pre-think a trap answer: I am very confident that in such cases they would have picked that trap answer regardless of whether or not they did any pre-thinking.
User avatar
MartyTargetTestPrep
User avatar
Target Test Prep Representative
Joined: 24 Nov 2014
Last visit: 11 Aug 2023
Posts: 3,479
Own Kudos:
5,302
 [3]
Given Kudos: 1,431
Status:Chief Curriculum and Content Architect
Affiliations: Target Test Prep
GMAT 1: 800 Q51 V51
Expert reply
GMAT 1: 800 Q51 V51
Posts: 3,479
Kudos: 5,302
 [3]
3
Kudos
Add Kudos
Bookmarks
Bookmark this Post
avigutman
Trap answers are designed to poison our mind and flip our logic upside down, so doing the thinking after reading an answer choice is much harder - it's like trying to avoid food poisoning after we've already eaten the expired item.
I've never seen this issue. From what I've seen, if someone gets the argument and what the question is asking and is skilled in seeing what the logical implications of choices are, he or she won't be fooled one bit by the trap choices.

Also, I think it's worth noting that, by your logic, if people prethink the wrong thing, they may be poisoned by their own prethought idea, which will shield them from being swayed, not just by incorrect choices, but also by the correct answer.

While I agree that considering what the correct answer to a question could be could help you to see certain aspects of the scenario more clearly, I personally can't imagine spending even one second thinking about what the correct answer to a CR question might be. By just paying attention to the logical implications of the choices, you can readily eliminate the ones that have the wrong implications. So, it's as if you're saying that people will not be able to learn to see the logical implications of choices, so they better do something to protect their easily fooled selves from the big bad trap choices.

For me, the key move is to learn to identify the logical implications of choices and statements in passages. If you can do that, you're set. You won't have to spend time prethinking, you won't be fooled by trap choices, and you'll consistently get CR questions correct in well under two minutes each, and I think people can learn to do that.
User avatar
avigutman
Joined: 17 Jul 2019
Last visit: 03 Oct 2024
Posts: 1,299
Own Kudos:
1,817
 [1]
Given Kudos: 66
Location: Canada
GMAT 1: 780 Q51 V45
GMAT 2: 780 Q50 V47
GMAT 3: 770 Q50 V45
Expert reply
GMAT 1: 780 Q51 V45
GMAT 2: 780 Q50 V47
GMAT 3: 770 Q50 V45
Posts: 1,299
Kudos: 1,817
 [1]
1
Kudos
Add Kudos
Bookmarks
Bookmark this Post
MartyTargetTestPrep
If someone gets the argument and what the question is asking and is skilled in seeing what the logical implications of choices are, he or she won't be fooled one bit by the trap choices.
Agreed. But, that's a lot of ifs, and it's not necessarily the optimal strategy.

MartyTargetTestPrep
By your logic, if people prethink the wrong thing, they may be poisoned by their own prethought idea, which will shield them from being swayed, not just by incorrect choices, but also by the correct answer.
Again, pre-thinking doesn't mean trying to predict the right answer. It means focusing on logical implications and making common-sense connections at the argument phase; thinking deeply about the ways in which the argument is flawed, before going to the answer choices.
If doing so leads a test-taker to pick the wrong answer, it is my claim that this test-taker would have picked the wrong answer regardless.

MartyTargetTestPrep
It's as if you're saying that people will not be able to learn to see the logical implications of choices, so they better do something to protect their easily fooled selves from the big bad trap choices.
Not at all. I'm certain they can learn to see the logical implications of choices. But, if acing the GMAT is about finding the shortest, easiest ways to arrive at correct answers (this is something we agree on), then I maintain that considering the ways in which the argument is flawed before reading the answer choices is the better approach. I suspect that you, MartyTargetTestPrep, do precisely that, either consciously or subconsciously, while you're reading an argument. But I'm open to being wrong about that.
User avatar
MartyTargetTestPrep
User avatar
Target Test Prep Representative
Joined: 24 Nov 2014
Last visit: 11 Aug 2023
Posts: 3,479
Own Kudos:
5,302
 [1]
Given Kudos: 1,431
Status:Chief Curriculum and Content Architect
Affiliations: Target Test Prep
GMAT 1: 800 Q51 V51
Expert reply
GMAT 1: 800 Q51 V51
Posts: 3,479
Kudos: 5,302
 [1]
1
Kudos
Add Kudos
Bookmarks
Bookmark this Post
avigutman
MartyTargetTestPrep
It's as if you're saying that people will not be able to learn to see the logical implications of choices, so they better do something to protect their easily fooled selves from the big bad trap choices.
Not at all. I'm certain they can learn to see the logical implications of choices. But, if acing the GMAT is about finding the shortest, easiest ways to arrive at correct answers (this is something we agree on), then I maintain that considering the ways in which the argument is flawed before reading the answer choices is the better approach. I suspect that you, MartyTargetTestPrep, do precisely that, either consciously or subconsciously, while you're reading an argument. But I'm open to being wrong about that.
Actually, I don't think I really do consider the ways in which the argument is flawed. I just take it for what it is and head to the answer choices and let the correct answer do its job.

That said, I'm getting the impression that we're talking about two different things. The prethinking I'm talking about generally does involve coming up with possible answers to the question, whereas the prethinking you're talking about seems to be more focused on analyzing the argument to see how it's flawed, which seems reasonable to me, even if I personally wouldn't bother.
User avatar
avigutman
Joined: 17 Jul 2019
Last visit: 03 Oct 2024
Posts: 1,299
Own Kudos:
1,817
 [2]
Given Kudos: 66
Location: Canada
GMAT 1: 780 Q51 V45
GMAT 2: 780 Q50 V47
GMAT 3: 770 Q50 V45
Expert reply
GMAT 1: 780 Q51 V45
GMAT 2: 780 Q50 V47
GMAT 3: 770 Q50 V45
Posts: 1,299
Kudos: 1,817
 [2]
2
Kudos
Add Kudos
Bookmarks
Bookmark this Post
MartyTargetTestPrep
I'm getting the impression that we're talking about two different things. The prethinking I'm talking about generally does involve coming up with possible answers to the question, whereas the prethinking you're talking about seems to be more focused on analyzing the argument to see how it's flawed, which seems reasonable to me, even if I personally wouldn't bother.

To be clear, when I consider the flaws in an argument (and I already know what the question is asking for, since I read it ahead of time), possible correct answers tend to pop into my head automatically (each flaw carries with it an automatic possible correct answer, at least in abstract form). This is why I said earlier that the right answer can be anticipated as a by-product of my pre-thinking - but that's never my goal. Rather, my goal is simply to do a full analysis of the argument (what you refer to as focusing on logical implications and making common-sense connections) - including identifying any flaws or things the author failed to consider - before looking at the answer choices.

To be honest I'm quite surprised to learn that you, MartyTargetTestPrep, don't analyze the argument to see how it's flawed. I would have expected such a strategy to decrease accuracy and increase time. It certainly would for me.
User avatar
vv65
Joined: 01 Mar 2015
Last visit: 31 Oct 2024
Posts: 533
Own Kudos:
373
 [3]
Given Kudos: 762
Location: India
GMAT 1: 740 Q47 V44
GMAT 1: 740 Q47 V44
Posts: 533
Kudos: 373
 [3]
3
Kudos
Add Kudos
Bookmarks
Bookmark this Post
The process that works for me, and the one I teach, is similar to what avigutman has explained.

Start by reading the question. Then read the argument and try to identify flaws and assumptions.
Before looking at the answer choices, stop to think. State what you are looking for. This is not the same as predicting the answer. It's more about thinking what the answer "needs to do".

By doing lots of CR questions in this way, test takers may reach a stage in which the process becomes almost automatic.

Of course, some test-takers can do CR questions without following these steps of identifying flaws and stopping to think. Just as many can spot subject-verb or pronoun errors without having to consciously look for the verbs and pronouns in every sentence.
avatar
AndrewN
avatar
Volunteer Expert
Joined: 16 May 2019
Last visit: 27 Sep 2024
Posts: 3,503
Own Kudos:
7,000
 [3]
Given Kudos: 500
Expert reply
Posts: 3,503
Kudos: 7,000
 [3]
2
Kudos
Add Kudos
1
Bookmarks
Bookmark this Post
I have been "listening in" on this dialogue from the get-go, and, not to confound the issue, but I have long held a view more in line with the TTP stance on "pre-thinking." In the beginning, I thought the so-called strategy was a smoke-and-mirrors effect, an after-the-fact justification of the correct answer. To me, it made much more sense to engage with what was actually on the screen. How could I know whether a weaken question, for instance, would attack the argument on the whole, the extreme length to which the argument was taken, the soundness of the logic on which the argument was based (e.g., the force of the evidence), or, as sometimes happens, would furnish some out-of-left-field (alternative) consideration that would seriously cast doubts on the conclusion reached? I often teach my students to work smarter, not harder (a maxim that sounds a lot better with the American English "d" sound in smarter). In one of my most popular posts, I spoke boldly on the topic:

Quote:
Speaking to the strategy of pre-thinking, I find it mildly useful. In some questions, pre-thinking can help me get the answer spot-on, before I even encounter the answer choices; in others, I can pre-think up a storm and find no corresponding answers. Because it is difficult to predict whether any given question will fall into Camp A or Camp B, I typically bypass pre-thinking and engage directly with the question, then the passage, then each answer choice, making sure the option I choose has firm grounding in the text and answers the question being asked.
I feel I must now confess that after working with many students who have found the pre-thinking strategy essential to their approach, and having expanded my view on just what the strategy may mean to others, as Avi has well articulated above, I can appreciate its utility to some people. Who am I to argue with someone who might miss 0-3 questions across the entire Verbal section on a consistent basis, and perhaps none on the CR subset? The key to any successful CR strategy is engagement. Some people achieve this by pre-thinking, others, apparently like me and Marty, by direct means, let come what may. Pigeonholing the definition of pre-thinking may be too extreme, and arguing about its usefulness may be akin to debating whether stretching before exercise is beneficial. The point in the latter, of course, is to prepare the body for engagement.

In the end, I may not pre-think, and I suspect that some peddle the strategy as an essential one within some definition of what the process entails, but I will be the first to admit that I do not have all the answers, and I am open to hearing about what works for others.

- Andrew
avatar
AndrewN
avatar
Volunteer Expert
Joined: 16 May 2019
Last visit: 27 Sep 2024
Posts: 3,503
Own Kudos:
7,000
 [2]
Given Kudos: 500
Expert reply
Posts: 3,503
Kudos: 7,000
 [2]
2
Kudos
Add Kudos
Bookmarks
Bookmark this Post
An addendum to my earlier post that I forgot to bring up (after I had initially thought to touch on the point)—my embedded quote above attests to the fact that I often peek at the question, then the passage to give shape to what I am about to read. Avi wrote the same thing (about his own method) in his initial post:

avigutman
I suggest always starting not from the passage at the top of the screen, but rather from the question stem in the centre of the screen. This way, by the time we start reading the passage, we already have a pretty good idea of what our job is.
I remember reading a post in this TTP series a few months back in which it was recommended not to bother reading the question stem first, since people subsequently reread the question anyway. Once again, I find it a matter of preference, and, if I am being perfectly honest, I can go either way when I practice questions myself (every single day), with no discernible difference in results. If I glance down and see the word weaken or strengthen, that preview might be enough; if I see a blank at the end of the passage, or boldfaced words, I just start reading from the top. I see adaptation as a plus, and, as I outlined in my earlier post, I believe that engagement can come in many forms.

I have a profound respect for those who have helped put the TTP curriculum together, and I doubt anyone in the industry would argue against its core teachings. It is easy for people, experts and non-experts alike, to squabble about the small stuff, but the big picture seems largely the same to me.

Now, as a token of my appreciation for having been able to enjoy reading such engaging posts as this dialogue unfolded, I just have to figure out which single post per "side" I wish to award a kudos.

- Andrew
User avatar
VerbalBot
User avatar
Non-Human User
Joined: 01 Oct 2013
Last visit: 04 Jan 2021
Posts: 17,930
Own Kudos:
Posts: 17,930
Kudos: 892
Kudos
Add Kudos
Bookmarks
Bookmark this Post
Hello from the GMAT Club VerbalBot!

Thanks to another GMAT Club member, I have just discovered this valuable topic, yet it had no discussion for over a year. I am now bumping it up - doing my job. I think you may find it valuable (esp those replies with Kudos).

Want to see all other topics I dig out? Follow me (click follow button on profile). You will receive a summary of all topics I bump in your profile area as well as via email.
Moderators:
GMAT Club Verbal Expert
7108 posts
GMAT Club Verbal Expert
234 posts
GRE Forum Moderator
14074 posts