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Re: New grocery products benefit the manufacturer but not the grocer. If [#permalink]
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hadimadi wrote:
I still prefer (D):

We have to find a reason that would encourage grocery stores to encourage manufacturers to produce new products.

(D) tells us that manufacturers can decline or accept new products. As a grocery store, I would encourage manufacturers all I could to create new products. Once they have finished the new product, I would check the profit margins. If there is a benefit, I will take them. If not, I won’t, as I have the choice to decline.


It's important to engage with the actual argument that produces the conclusion. The argument explains that the grocer will sell a fixed amount of detergent. Let's say she sells $1000 of detergent per week. So if the grocer introduces a new brand of detergent, that brand might be amazingly profitable on its own -- perhaps it sells $900 per week -- but then the sales of the previous brands of detergent would drop to $100 per week. The grocer's revenue doesn't change, according to the argument. It is true that if some new products had higher profit margins than existing products, the grocer would have a good reason to consider new products. But there is no information in D or elsewhere that tells us new products can have better profit margins than old products.

So from the argument, without information about profit margins, we have no reason to think the grocer can gain anything by stocking a new detergent product. But if the grocer can stock a product she never had in-store before, she can create an entirely new revenue stream. Then the logic of the argument does not apply to the new product, which is why E is a good answer here.
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IanStewart wrote:
hadimadi wrote:
I still prefer (D):

We have to find a reason that would encourage grocery stores to encourage manufacturers to produce new products.

(D) tells us that manufacturers can decline or accept new products. As a grocery store, I would encourage manufacturers all I could to create new products. Once they have finished the new product, I would check the profit margins. If there is a benefit, I will take them. If not, I won’t, as I have the choice to decline.


It's important to engage with the actual argument that produces the conclusion. The argument explains that the grocer will sell a fixed amount of detergent. Let's say she sells $1000 of detergent per week. So if the grocer introduces a new brand of detergent, that brand might be amazingly profitable on its own -- perhaps it sells $900 per week -- but then the sales of the previous brands of detergent would drop to $100 per week. The grocer's revenue doesn't change, according to the argument. It is true that if some new products had higher profit margins than existing products, the grocer would have a good reason to consider new products. But there is no information in D or elsewhere that tells us new products can have better profit margins than old products.

So from the argument, without information about profit margins, we have no reason to think the grocer can gain anything by stocking a new detergent product. But if the grocer can stock a product she never had in-store before, she can create an entirely new revenue stream. Then the logic of the argument does not apply to the new product, which is why E is a good answer here.


Hello Mr Stewart,

I agree with most of what you say: Nowhere that tells us new products CAN have better profit margins than existing ones.

By the same token, (E) doesn’t indicate that any customer would ever buy this product, thus if it would have any positive effect on revenue and profit.

Also, if (D) happens, it might be that new products like in (E) are developed. So (D) could include (E) …

Therefore (D) is better

Originally posted by hadimadi on 17 Aug 2022, 09:07.
Last edited by hadimadi on 17 Aug 2022, 09:56, edited 2 times in total.
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Hi avigutman. Struggling to justify picking E over C

Just so we are on the same page regarding terminology

Lets say there are 3 types of products
- (Type 1 product) Old product (1995 Honda Civic)
- (Type 2 product) New brand of old product (2022 Model of Toyota Carolla)
- (Type 3 product) Brand new product (never sold before) (Flying car - never seen before)

Originally posted by jabhatta2 on 17 Aug 2022, 09:21.
Last edited by jabhatta2 on 18 Aug 2022, 05:57, edited 8 times in total.
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New grocery products benefit the manufacturer but not the grocer. If [#permalink]
^^^ avigutman

As mentiond above - Struggling to justify picking (E) over (C)

Feel like the assumptions that (E) carry-- are the similar assumptions (C) carry.

If you select (E) -- one is assuming (type 3) products will bring in new customers into your store, incentivizing grocery stores to introduce Type (3) products

Fair enough - i dont see anything wrong with the above assumption in red.

But you can make a very similar assumption with option C

Originally posted by jabhatta2 on 17 Aug 2022, 09:41.
Last edited by jabhatta2 on 18 Aug 2022, 06:14, edited 6 times in total.
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avigutman : C implies that

Grocery stores will only carry VERY SUCCESFFUL PRODUCTS.

Inference - If (type 1) and/or (type 2) and/or (type 3) are very successful - grocery stores will be incentivized to carry these types of products

----------------

Now i agree that we dont know if (type 2) or (type 3) products are very successful but it certainly is a possible test case.

So given the test case exists for (Type 2) and/or (Type 3) products -- these possible test cases are grounds enough to weaken the conclusion

Originally posted by jabhatta2 on 17 Aug 2022, 09:48.
Last edited by jabhatta2 on 18 Aug 2022, 06:16, edited 3 times in total.
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jabhatta2 wrote:
I thought (C) and (D) both opened the door for weakening the argument because both answers tells us that profit incentive (not higher sales) could be a reason for grocery stores to encourage the introduction of new products.

Now i agree that we cant assume "new products" will always be profitable/unit but we can certainly assume "new products" CAN BE MORE profitable/unit.

Don't both answers give the impression that increased profit gives grocers an incentive to introduce "new products".

jabhatta2 You're going to have to walk me through how (C) and (D) give the impression that increased profit gives grocers an incentive to introduce "new products". I don't see it.

hadimadi wrote:
Hello Mr Stewart,

I agree with most of what you say: Nowhere that tells us new products CAN have better profit margins than existing ones.

By the same token, (E) doesn’t indicate that any customer would ever buy this product, thus if it would have any positive effect on revenue and profit.

Also, if (D) happens, it might be that new products like in (E) are developed. So (D) could include (E) …

Therefore (D) is better

Hi hadimadi. I think you're conflating "new product" and "new brand" (jabhatta2, you were probably doing this too). The argument made the same mistake, and (E) attacks that mistake.
I'm going to boldface below the most important phrases to note:
Quote:
New grocery products benefit the manufacturer but not the grocer. If a company introduces a new brand of detergent, it might attract more consumers to its brand. The grocery store, however, will not sell any more detergent overall than it would have without the new brand. Thus there is little reason for grocers to encourage the introduction of new products.

Which of the following, if true, argues against the conclusion above?

A. Often manufacturers introduce a new grocery product in order to take business away from a competitor who already produces a similar product.
B. Some manufacturers prefer to put new grocery products in stores as early as possible, rather than spending time and money on controlled market research.
C. Most grocery stores have such narrow profit margins that they cannot afford to carry marginally successful products.
D. Grocers have the option not to take on products that they do not think will sell well, or that they expect will not increase the grocer's profits.
E. Some manufacturers introduce new types of groceries, such as precooked meals that people can prepare quickly instead of going to a restaurant.

The argument tells us (as a premise) that a product category (e.g. detergent) has a fixed amount of sales, so all brands in that category are playing a zero-sum game.
If the argument claimed there's little reason for grocers to encourage the introduction of new brands into existing product categories, well, that would be one thing. But to claim there's little reason for grocers to encourage the introduction of new products is a whole other ballgame.
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avigutman wrote:
jabhatta2 wrote:
I thought (C) and (D) both opened the door for weakening the argument because both answers tells us that profit incentive (not higher sales) could be a reason for grocery stores to encourage the introduction of new products.

Now i agree that we cant assume "new products" will always be profitable/unit but we can certainly assume "new products" CAN BE MORE profitable/unit.

Don't both answers give the impression that increased profit gives grocers an incentive to introduce "new products".

jabhatta2 You're going to have to walk me through how (C) and (D) give the impression that increased profit gives grocers an incentive to introduce "new products". I don't see it.

hadimadi wrote:
Hello Mr Stewart,

I agree with most of what you say: Nowhere that tells us new products CAN have better profit margins than existing ones.

By the same token, (E) doesn’t indicate that any customer would ever buy this product, thus if it would have any positive effect on revenue and profit.

Also, if (D) happens, it might be that new products like in (E) are developed. So (D) could include (E) …

Therefore (D) is better

Hi hadimadi. I think you're conflating "new product" and "new brand" (jabhatta2, you were probably doing this too). The argument made the same mistake, and (E) attacks that mistake.
I'm going to boldface below the most important phrases to note:
Quote:
New grocery products benefit the manufacturer but not the grocer. If a company introduces a new brand of detergent, it might attract more consumers to its brand. The grocery store, however, will not sell any more detergent overall than it would have without the new brand. Thus there is little reason for grocers to encourage the introduction of new products.

Which of the following, if true, argues against the conclusion above?

A. Often manufacturers introduce a new grocery product in order to take business away from a competitor who already produces a similar product.
B. Some manufacturers prefer to put new grocery products in stores as early as possible, rather than spending time and money on controlled market research.
C. Most grocery stores have such narrow profit margins that they cannot afford to carry marginally successful products.
D. Grocers have the option not to take on products that they do not think will sell well, or that they expect will not increase the grocer's profits.
E. Some manufacturers introduce new types of groceries, such as precooked meals that people can prepare quickly instead of going to a restaurant.

The argument tells us (as a premise) that a product category (e.g. detergent) has a fixed amount of sales, so all brands in that category are playing a zero-sum game.
If the argument claimed there's little reason for grocers to encourage the introduction of new brands into existing product categories, well, that would be one thing. But to claim there's little reason for grocers to encourage the introduction of new products is a whole other ballgame.


Hello Avi,

first off, a new brand of detergent is a new grocery product, in my opinion. However, if something is a new grocery product it could be a new brand or a completely new product.
Thus, If the question tries to point to a completely new array of products with a unique USP, then it should be mentioned more clearly.

Now, let's assume that as you say, new grocery product and new brand of products are different things. All that (E) tells us is that there are some grocers that have new types of groceries. The argument is asking for an incentive to make grocers encourage manfuacturers to produce new product types.

How does the existence of a new type or product in some grocers give such an incentive? The mere existence, without any sales or profit numbers, or other benefits? Who knows if this will ever sell?

Now here is why (D) INCLUDES (E):

If grocers can reject or accept any kind of product (any kind includes new types or products AND new brands), then they have a reason to encourage manufacturers to come up with new product types and new brands. IF a product is nice of revenue increase or profit, they accept it. For example, if the pasta mentioned in (E) is nice, they will accept it.

Thanks
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avigutman wrote:
jabhatta2 wrote:
I thought (C) and (D) both opened the door for weakening the argument because both answers tells us that profit incentive (not higher sales) could be a reason for grocery stores to encourage the introduction of new products.

Now i agree that we cant assume "new products" will always be profitable/unit but we can certainly assume "new products" CAN BE MORE profitable/unit.

Don't both answers give the impression that increased profit gives grocers an incentive to introduce "new products".

jabhatta2 You're going to have to walk me through how (C) and (D) give the impression that increased profit gives grocers an incentive to introduce "new products". I don't see it.



Hi avigutman : thank you for responding.

I dont think i did a good job asking my question. I should have deleted the original post completely. Please ignore the original post completely.

This was my question instead here

Apologies for the confusion
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hadimadi wrote:
How does the existence of a new type or product in some grocers give such an incentive? The mere existence, without any sales or profit numbers, or other benefits? Who knows if this will ever sell?

hadimadi The author's reasoning for grocers' lack of a reason to encourage the introduction of new products was the zero-sum-game in the case of new brands for existing products. If there's a new product (as opposed to merely a new brand of an existing product), then the reasoning provided by the author is no longer relevant, and the grocers may very well have a reason to encourage the introduction of new products (because it's no longer a zero-sum-game).
hadimadi wrote:
Now here is why (D) INCLUDES (E):
If grocers can reject or accept any kind of product (any kind includes new types or products AND new brands), then they have a reason to encourage manufacturers to come up with new product types and new brands. IF a product is nice of revenue increase or profit, they accept it. For example, if the pasta mentioned in (E) is nice, they will accept it.

Right, (D) says no-one is going to force grocers to carry products they don't want to. Okay, great. Now that we know this, do we (the grocers) have a reason to encourage the introduction of new products? What is that reason, exactly? Can you articulate it? What has changed? It's still a zero-sum-game, after all, is it not?
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jabhatta2 wrote:
C implies that

Grocery stores will only carry VERY SUCCESFFUL PRODUCTS.

Inference - If (type 1) and/or (type 2) and/or (type 3) are very successful - grocery stores will be incentivized to carry these types of products


jabhatta2 here's answer choice (C):
Quote:
C. Most grocery stores have such narrow profit margins that they cannot afford to carry marginally successful products.

Can you walk me through your reasoning, step by step: how you get from the original text to your inference, and then from your inference to the grocers' reason to encourage the introduction of new products? I'm having a hard time following.
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avigutman wrote:
hadimadi wrote:
How does the existence of a new type or product in some grocers give such an incentive? The mere existence, without any sales or profit numbers, or other benefits? Who knows if this will ever sell?

hadimadi The author's reasoning for grocers' lack of a reason to encourage the introduction of new products was the zero-sum-game in the case of new brands for existing products. If there's a new product (as opposed to merely a new brand of an existing product), then the reasoning provided by the author is no longer relevant, and the grocers may very well have a reason to encourage the introduction of new products (because it's no longer a zero-sum-game).
hadimadi wrote:
Now here is why (D) INCLUDES (E):
If grocers can reject or accept any kind of product (any kind includes new types or products AND new brands), then they have a reason to encourage manufacturers to come up with new product types and new brands. IF a product is nice of revenue increase or profit, they accept it. For example, if the pasta mentioned in (E) is nice, they will accept it.

Right, (D) says no-one is going to force grocers to carry products they don't want to. Okay, great. Now that we know this, do we (the grocers) have a reason to encourage the introduction of new products? What is that reason, exactly? Can you articulate it? What has changed? It's still a zero-sum-game, after all, is it not?


avigutman

1. Yes, if there is a new product that does somehow well it would be interesting. (E) only talks about the existence of a new product, nothing about if it will ever sell. Merely a new product is not an incentive for a grocer to encourage manufacturers. It has to be a new product that is purchased or somehow has a positive effect on the grocer. Where in (E) is that effect? It isn’t mentioned. It could still be the best answer, since in mentions new products that might sell. So let’s look at (D).

2. The reason why this should encourage grocers to push manufacturers for new products: Grocers have 0 cost of encouraging M to develop products. As a grocer, my rationale is to push M to do new products. If they develop completely new products that will be sold, good, I will accept. If not, I won’t.
It could be, for example, that M comes up with the same product as mentioned in (E), and given that it actually sells, the grocer would take it.
So in total, given that I can accept and decline products, I have all the incentives to push M to develop (new) products and see what they come up with.

I find 2. stronger than 1.
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hadimadi wrote:
The reason why (D) should encourage grocers to push manufacturers for new products: Grocers have 0 cost of encouraging M to develop products. As a grocer, my rationale is to push M to do new products. If they develop completely new products that will be sold, good, I will accept. If not, I won’t.
It could be, for example, that M comes up with the same product as mentioned in (E), and given that it actually sells, the grocer would take it.
So in total, given that I can accept and decline products, I have all the incentives to push M to develop (new) products and see what they come up with.

I understand your point about (D) including (E). Here's why it doesn't, hadimadi: the argument's reasoning describes a zero-sum-game within each product category, and presents that as the reason for its conclusion. The argument fails to mention anything about the possibility of new product categories. Therefore, until we get to answer choice (E), we don't know, nor do we have any reason to think, that there may be new product categories that the grocers never imagined possible. When we read (D) we're still in the dark about that - (D) doesn't mention the possibility of new product categories. Consider that between 1200AD and 1500AD we had 300 years with essentially zero new product categories.

As IanStewart said before I joined in the conversation:
IanStewart wrote:
from the argument, without information about profit margins, we have no reason to think the grocer can gain anything by stocking a new detergent product.
Ian confines his explanation to new brands within an existing product category because that's what the argument's reasoning did. We need an answer choice that explicitly suggests there could be such a thing as an entirely new, never before conceived of, product category. (E) does that but (D) doesn't.
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avigutman wrote:
hadimadi wrote:
The reason why (D) should encourage grocers to push manufacturers for new products: Grocers have 0 cost of encouraging M to develop products. As a grocer, my rationale is to push M to do new products. If they develop completely new products that will be sold, good, I will accept. If not, I won’t.
It could be, for example, that M comes up with the same product as mentioned in (E), and given that it actually sells, the grocer would take it.
So in total, given that I can accept and decline products, I have all the incentives to push M to develop (new) products and see what they come up with.

I understand your point about (D) including (E). Here's why it doesn't, hadimadi: the argument's reasoning describes a zero-sum-game within each product category, and presents that as the reason for its conclusion. The argument fails to mention anything about the possibility of new product categories. Therefore, until we get to answer choice (E), we don't know, nor do we have any reason to think, that there may be new product categories that the grocers never imagined possible. When we read (D) we're still in the dark about that - (D) doesn't mention the possibility of new product categories. Consider that between 1200AD and 1500AD we had 300 years with essentially zero new product categories.

As IanStewart said before I joined in the conversation:
IanStewart wrote:
from the argument, without information about profit margins, we have no reason to think the grocer can gain anything by stocking a new detergent product.
Ian confines his explanation to new brands within an existing product category because that's what the argument's reasoning did. We need an answer choice that explicitly suggests there could be such a thing as an entirely new, never before conceived of, product category. (E) does that but (D) doesn't.



Hello Avi,

thanks for the discussion.

The argument is looking for something that incentives G to encourage M to develop products. Such a thing could be new products as they might sell well. Therefore, I don't agree with the point where you say that the answer must be something with a new product.
An answer could also be that a new innovation has made it possible for detergents to be produced by M at much lower cost, and M carries that to G. So new product types isn’t the only possible answer here.
Just because the question stem tells us about a zero sum game for existing brand products, it doesn’t mean necessarily that the answer has to be about a new product type.
In each of the answers you have given me in your previous post, you posit that we require a new product type.

Yes, (E) mentions that new product types exist. But again, could you lay out to me how the existence of a new product type incentives G to encourage M to develop new products?

I see that (E) mentions the existence something that the argument doesn’t consider, but how does that trigger the encouraging part?

I see that (D) isn’t ideal, but I also see that (E) is just as ‘inideal’.

Merci Avi
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hadimadi wrote:
An answer could also be that a new innovation has made it possible for detergents to be produced by M at much lower cost, and M carries that to G. So new product types isn’t the only possible answer here.
Just because the question stem tells us about a zero sum game for existing brand products, it doesn’t mean necessarily that the answer has to be about a new product type.
In each of the answers you have given me in your previous post, you posit that we require a new product type.

You're exactly right, that was a great analysis! For the record, my position that we require a new product type was in the context of the available answer choices.
hadimadi wrote:
Yes, (E) mentions that new product types exist. But again, could you lay out to me how the existence of a new product type incentives G to encourage M to develop new products?

I see that (E) mentions the existence something that the argument doesn’t consider, but how does that trigger the encouraging part?

We're looking for an answer that attacks the claim there is little reason for grocers to encourage the introduction of new products. Answer choice (E) gives an out from the zero-sum-game problem, thereby suggesting that there may be reason after all.

hadimadi wrote:
I see that (D) isn’t ideal, but I also see that (E) is just as ‘inideal’.

Let's see if we can add a premise to the argument, that would make (D) a good answer:
Quote:
New grocery products benefit the manufacturer but not the grocer. If a company introduces a new brand of detergent, it might attract more consumers to its brand. The grocery store, however, will not sell any more detergent overall than it would have without the new brand. Further, any new grocery products may offer lower profit margins than the existing grocery products. Thus there is little reason for grocers to encourage the introduction of new products.

Now answer choice (D) offers new information that directly engages with the argument. But without that extra premise, only answer choice (E) offers new information that directly engages with the argument, hadimadi.
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[quote=“avigutman"]
We're looking for an answer that attacks the claim there is little reason for grocers to encourage the introduction of new products. Answer choice (E) gives an out from the zero-sum-game problem, thereby suggesting that there may be reason after all.[/quote]


Here I still have issues. You say that we are looking for an answer that attacks the claim that there is little reason for grocers to encourage the introduction of new products.
(E) doesn’t give us necessarily an out from the zero sum game: People could stop buying other ready-to-eat meals from the grocer in a way that equalizes the positive effect on sales of the new product. Until we don’t know that, (E) remains just as good as (D) for me.
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hadimadi wrote:
(E) doesn’t give us necessarily an out from the zero sum game: People could stop buying other ready-to-eat meals from the grocer in a way that equalizes the positive effect on sales of the new product. Until we don’t know that, (E) remains just as good as (D) for me.

Let's look at exactly what (E) says, hadimadi, and I'll boldface the important words:
Quote:
E. Some manufacturers introduce new types of groceries, such as precooked meals that people can prepare quickly instead of going to a restaurant.

This is explicitly stating that the new product will replace restaurants, not other ready-to-eat meals.
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avigutman wrote:
hadimadi wrote:
(E) doesn’t give us necessarily an out from the zero sum game: People could stop buying other ready-to-eat meals from the grocer in a way that equalizes the positive effect on sales of the new product. Until we don’t know that, (E) remains just as good as (D) for me.

Let's look at exactly what (E) says, hadimadi, and I'll boldface the important words:
Quote:
E. Some manufacturers introduce new types of groceries, such as precooked meals that people can prepare quickly instead of going to a restaurant.

This is explicitly stating that the new product will replace restaurants, not other ready-to-eat meals.


Hello Avi,

thanks for the explanation. We still don’t know if people will buy that product.

In any case, the discussion cleared things up.

Thanks!
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Re: New grocery products benefit the manufacturer but not the grocer. If [#permalink]
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