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Magoosh GMAT Instructor
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Re: The Spotted Mole is a rodent that burrows underground and [#permalink]
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eggplantpower wrote:
Saabs wrote:
'No threat' versus your 'not much of a threat'

I'm trying to fully grasp this, sorry if I am being so specific. It's just thought that we should not think too much with our own knowledge or with outside information when answering a CR question.
Thank you for your feedback.


I agree. Like Magoosh said, what if the birds kill 99.9% of the moles that come above ground but 1 fast one gets away. What if this 1 mole destroys three plants. This kills the argument "Therefore, the Spotted Mole poses no threat to these totally above-ground fruits".

Poorly written question in my opinion because if even one fruit gets eaten, it is a threat.

Dear eggplantpower,
My friend, I think you are approaching this too idealistically. The "threat" in question is an economic threat, a threat to the business interests of the farmers who plant the fruit for commercial purposes. If one mole survives and eats a little fruit, this will have essentially no impact on the business interests of those commercial grower. Remember that rain, birds, insects, and all kind of other factors will cause ordinary fluctuations in the crop, and whatever a single mole might destroy likely would be lost in these fluctuations. It would be an economic threat if the moles destroyed some significant portion of the crop, but what one mole could destroy might not even be noticed.

Think about any business. Suppose I don't like a particular store. Suppose I convince one friend never to shop there again. Yes, the store lost one customer's revenue, but that difference would be lost in the ordinary up & down fluctuations of business. No one could reasonably say that, by talking just one person out of using that store, that I am a "threat" to their business. Now, if I organize a campaign, take out newspaper ads, etc. and convince hundreds of people not to use the store, then I would be "threat." In the latter case, the owners of the store certainly should worry about me, but they would be crazy to worry about me in the former case.

On the GMAT, always think in terms of the real-world economic and business interests of the players.

My friend, I think you are thinking too much in terms of ideals --- farmers plant 200 plants, and all 200 come to bloom and yield equal amounts of fruit. That's a fairy tale. The real world is not that mathematical and precise. The real world is always messy, and there are always multiple factors in play. In the real world, farmers plant their crops, and expect some kind of average yield --- this varies slightly from year to year, but is certain not every plant automatically producing at maximum capacity. That doesn't happen in the real world.

This is a funny thing about GMAT CR. You don't need to know specific details about planting and farming and all that, but you have to have a general sense for how events in the real world work. See this blog:
https://magoosh.com/gmat/2014/gmat-criti ... knowledge/
If you think too much in terms of isolated ideas, such that the presence or absence of a single fruit makes a huge difference, then you really don't have a feel for the push and pull of the business world. Having that sense is essential for mastering the GMAT CR.

Does all this make sense?
Mike :-)
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Re: The Spotted Mole is a rodent that burrows underground and [#permalink]
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tryambaks wrote:
Hi Mike,

I have a question here.
Even though I marked the corrected answer and while answering used negation to eliminate option A , it took more than 2 minutes to answer the question :(
Applying the negation in the end between two close answer choices always eats up my time.
Mostly I am suffering from this problem, in which I get confused between two answers at the end and it takes some additional time there.

Could you please tell me how to improve such this problem ? :(

Dear tryambaks,
I'm happy to respond. :-)

First of all, you may notice in option (A) the extreme language, "every single Spotted Mole." This is a BIG tip-off. As a general rule, a statement that contains extreme language is exceedingly unlikely to be correct on the GMAT GC. The extreme words (all, none, never, always, every, etc.) should be a quick clue that something is amiss with that answer choice. That's at least one clue that will be helpful in a few CR arguments.

I think the larger issue, though, is getting used to critical thinking. Here's what I will say. Over and above any GMAT prep you are doing, I will recommend that you read high quality newspapers and high quality news magazines. In particular, read business news and political news. Look for arguments that people are making: most articles will contain an argument by one or more of the characters quoted in the article, and the writer may also be presenting a more subtle argument as well. Spend time thinking about these real world arguments, about what motivates all kinds of people in all kinds of positions. Ultimately, every advertisement is an argument: apply all the GMAT CR logic to every ad you see --- what are the assumptions? what would strengthen or weaken their argument? what additional information would you need to evaluate their claims? Even when a friend makes an argument to you, bring this level of analysis to it.

Make it your default habit to approach every argument you see in life this way. First of all, this will help you be more efficient on the GMAT CR. More importantly, this is precisely the mindset you need to have, once you have your MBA and are at work in the modern business world.

Does all this make sense?
Mike :-)
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Re: The Spotted Mole is a rodent that burrows underground and [#permalink]
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A was a bit tricky but too extreme.

D it is.

The times of day the Spotted Mole feeds are the same as the times of day that the birds are prey are in the air.

is not a bit awkward ?? or i'm wrong Mike ??

regards
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Re: The Spotted Mole is a rodent that burrows underground and [#permalink]
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mikemcgarry wrote:
.. they are not going to pose much of a threat to the farm. The spotted hawks could kill over 99%, the vast majority of the moles, and even though they didn't kill every last one, it's enough to protect the farms.


How do you know this? How can you refer this from the passage?
The last sentence says:

Quote:
Therefore, the Spotted Mole poses no threat to these totally above-ground fruits.


'No threat' versus your 'not much of a threat'

I'm trying to fully grasp this, sorry if I am being so specific. It's just thought that we should not think too much with our own knowledge or with outside information when answering a CR question.
Thank you for your feedback.
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Re: The Spotted Mole is a rodent that burrows underground and [#permalink]
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Can anyone else chime in? Nowhere does the passage mention anything about the sale or economic rewards of the plants. Thinking about the "economic threats" would be going outside the scope.

The passage states "Therefore, the Spotted Mole poses no threat to these totally above-ground fruits."

We are not worried about economic rewards. Any thoughts?
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Re: The Spotted Mole is a rodent that burrows underground and [#permalink]
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eggplantpower wrote:
Can anyone else chime in? Nowhere does the passage mention anything about the sale or economic rewards of the plants. Thinking about the "economic threats" would be going outside the scope.

The passage states "Therefore, the Spotted Mole poses no threat to these totally above-ground fruits."

We are not worried about economic rewards. Any thoughts?


I think this thread epitomizes why so many people swear by doing ONLY GMAC approved problems. While I agree with Magoosh's logic here (he's mostly correct), that's not how assumption - inference questions on the CR section work. There are 4 answers that are CLEARLY wrong, and in this case, A and D work to a certain extent. This isn't a 'which best strengthens / weakens' in which case we would have to choose the better answer.

When it comes to assumption / inference questions, there is no gray area and unfortunately there is gray area in this question. Even if 1 mole survives it poses SOME threat, even if that's 0.00000001% and this directly attacks the conclusion that there is NO threat. Poorly worded question and answer choices

I think the may take away from non-GMAC questions is to make sure you understand the logic and problem, and can diagram things out (on paper or in your head).
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The answer D, makes too many assumptions, clearly a poor question.

(D) The times of day the Spotted Mole feeds are the same as the times of day that the birds of prey are in the air.

1) What about the times of night when it feeds? Does the answer imply that the Spotted Mole only feeds during the day? It might come out to feed at nighttime when the birds of prey are not in air.

2) Does the fact that birds of prey are in the air necessarily imply that they will spot and kill the spotted mole before it can feed. Not at all. What if the birds operate at say 60% efficiency?

This means that even if the author assumes D, it just not justify the conclusion drawn. Assumption has to be something else, unless the author is prone to bad assumptions.

Also, if we negate the argument to say that mole doesnt feed when bird of prey is in air, there still exists the possibility that the a bird of prey perched on a tree might spot it and prey on it. so even negating it doesnt necessarily invalidate the argument.

I think Magoosh should take this question down rather than unnecessarily defending it.
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I was between A and D, but I've choosen A because for me was a stronger argument. My toughts were:

D is ok, but is kinda open, the birds of prey that are up in the same time that the moles can eat 1 out of every 100 spotted moles or 99 out of every 100. So the moles can still be a threat. And in this case I would be creating an information that is not given by the text. So, does not seems conclusive to me.

A would be more conclusive as you know, for sure, that no mole can eat the crops. If you negate this I think you fall in the same reasoning of the D, you don't kill them all. So it's possible that they kill 1 out of 100 or 99 out of 100, still open. They can kill just 1 out of 100, so 99% of mole population still there and the amount that they kill is irrelevant.

I still can't see clearly why D is a better option, I'm not saying that there is something wrong with the question. I honestly just want to know if there's something wrong with the way that I'm approaching the question.
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Re: The Spotted Mole is a rodent that burrows underground and [#permalink]
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mikemcgarry wrote:
jlgdr wrote:
A sounded too extreme, but still wouldn't it have to be true? Could someone clarify this please?

Disclosure: I picked

Cheers!
J :)

Dear jlgdr,
I'm happy to respond. :-)

First of all, remember, the opposite of "all" is not "none." The opposite of "all" is simply "not all" --- of course, "all" means 100%, but "not all" could be 1%, 10%, 50%, 80% or 99.9%.

So, suppose (A) is false. Suppose it's not true that the "birds of prey capture and kill every single Spotted Mole that comes above ground." Suppose of an original population of 1000 Spotted Moles on a particular, the birds of prey kill all but 7, and some 7 particularly lucky or particularly fast or crafty Spotted Moles survive. Well, in that case, the birds of prey did not kill "every single" one, but if there are only 7 left, they are not going to pose much of a threat to the farm. The spotted hawks could kill over 99%, the vast majority of the moles, and even though they didn't kill every last one, it's enough to protect the farms.

Does all this make sense?
Mike :-)




A bit shaky. The conclusion is that there is NO threat. If birds do not kill EVERY spotted mole, there is tiny bit of possibility of threat (even if there are only 7 of them) - it is not "no threat". If conclusion were "there is no significant threat..." it would have made much more sense. D, on the other hand, sounds controversial. Suppose feeding times are not the same, but nothing in the question stem indicates that moles come above the ground ONLY when it's feeding time. They might remain above ground at other times too, and birds can prey on them then. Correct me if I'm wrong..
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Re: The Spotted Mole is a rodent that burrows underground and [#permalink]
A sounded too extreme, but still wouldn't it have to be true? Could someone clarify this please?

Disclosure: I picked

Cheers!
J :)
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Re: The Spotted Mole is a rodent that burrows underground and [#permalink]
Saabs wrote:
mikemcgarry wrote:
.. they are not going to pose much of a threat to the farm. The spotted hawks could kill over 99%, the vast majority of the moles, and even though they didn't kill every last one, it's enough to protect the farms.


How do you know this? How can you refer this from the passage?
The last sentence says:

Quote:
Therefore, the Spotted Mole poses no threat to these totally above-ground fruits.


'No threat' versus your 'not much of a threat'

I'm trying to fully grasp this, sorry if I am being so specific. It's just thought that we should not think too much with our own knowledge or with outside information when answering a CR question.
Thank you for your feedback.


I agree. Like Magoosh said, what if the birds kill 99.9% of the moles that come above ground but 1 fast one gets away. What if this 1 mole destroys three plants. This kills the argument "Therefore, the Spotted Mole poses no threat to these totally above-ground fruits".

Poorly written question in my opinion because if even one fruit gets eaten, it is a threat.
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Re: The Spotted Mole is a rodent that burrows underground and [#permalink]
Hello,

Isn't the conclusion too extreme: Therefore, the Spotted Mole poses no threat to these totally above-ground fruits.

I choose A because of the word "totally". Not sure whether I understood the conclusion correctly.
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Re: The Spotted Mole is a rodent that burrows underground and [#permalink]
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hwgmat2015 wrote:
Hello,

Isn't the conclusion too extreme: Therefore, the Spotted Mole poses no threat to these totally above-ground fruits.

I choose A because of the word "totally". Not sure whether I understood the conclusion correctly.

Dear hwgmat2015,
I'm happy to respond. :-)

The word "totally" in the conclusion simply clarifies that no part of these plants are below the ground. Ordinarily, farmers plant their crops in the ground, and the roots are therefore below the surface. Thus, theoretically, the Spotted Mole could eat the below-ground roots of the plants, significantly damaging them, without ever coming above ground and risking encounters with the hawk. The question eliminates that scenario, by stipulating that the "commercial fruits" are "planted in above-ground planters and bins." Because the plants are in these bins, no part of them, not even the roots, are below ground. The word "totally" in the last section simply clarifies this, making clear that 100% of these plants are above ground. Therefore, the only way that the Spotted Mole could pose a threat is if the Spotted Mole comes above ground.

Choice (A) is not the answer because it is too extreme. Here's a slight rephrase of (A)
(A') The birds of prey capture and kill 100% of the Spotted Moles that come above ground.
To check this, we will negate this statement and ask, could the conclusion of the argument be true when this possible assumption is negated?

The crucial piece of this is to understand what the opposite of 100% is. Some people thing the opposite of 100% would be 0%, but that's not a proper logical negation. The negation of one possibility must include all other possibilities. The opposite of 100% is simply "not 100%," everything other than 100%. Thus, the negation would be
(not A) The birds of prey capture and kill less than 100% of the Spotted Moles that come above ground.
Would it be possible for this to be true and the conclusion of the argument still to be true? Yes. "Less than 100%" could be, say, 99%. Suppose the birds of prey wipe out 99%, or 99.9%, of the Spotted Moles that come above ground. Yes, there would still be some straggling remnant that might eat some of the plants, but these few Spotted Moles will not do enough damage to be noticeable. Essentially, there is still no threat, even though the birds of prey did not obliterate every last rodent. It's possible to negate this and still imagine a scenario in which the argument's conclusion works. Therefore, (A) is not a true assumption. As a general rule, an statement with extreme language (all, every, none, etc.) is not going to be correct in the GMAT CR.

Does all this make sense?
Mike :-)
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Re: The Spotted Mole is a rodent that burrows underground and [#permalink]
Hi Mike,

I have a question here.
Even though I marked the corrected answer and while answering used negation to eliminate option A , it took more than 2 minutes to answer the question :(
Applying the negation in the end between two close answer choices always eats up my time.
Mostly I am suffering from this problem, in which I get confused between two answers at the end and it takes some additional time there.

Could you please tell me how to improve such this problem ? :(
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Re: The Spotted Mole is a rodent that burrows underground and [#permalink]
mikemcgarry wrote:
tryambaks wrote:
Hi Mike,

I have a question here.
Even though I marked the corrected answer and while answering used negation to eliminate option A , it took more than 2 minutes to answer the question :(
Applying the negation in the end between two close answer choices always eats up my time.
Mostly I am suffering from this problem, in which I get confused between two answers at the end and it takes some additional time there.

Could you please tell me how to improve such this problem ? :(

Dear tryambaks,
I'm happy to respond. :-)

First of all, you may notice in option (A) the extreme language, "every single Spotted Mole." This is a BIG tip-off. As a general rule, a statement that contains extreme language is exceedingly unlikely to be correct on the GMAT GC. The extreme words (all, none, never, always, every, etc.) should be a quick clue that something is amiss with that answer choice. That's at least one clue that will be helpful in a few CR arguments.

I think the larger issue, though, is getting used to critical thinking. Here's what I will say. Over and above any GMAT prep you are doing, I will recommend that you read high quality newspapers and high quality news magazines. In particular, read business news and political news. Look for arguments that people are making: most articles will contain an argument by one or more of the characters quoted in the article, and the writer may also be presenting a more subtle argument as well. Spend time thinking about these real world arguments, about what motivates all kinds of people in all kinds of positions. Ultimately, every advertisement is an argument: apply all the GMAT CR logic to every ad you see --- what are the assumptions? what would strengthen or weaken their argument? what additional information would you need to evaluate their claims? Even when a friend makes an argument to you, bring this level of analysis to it.

Make it your default habit to approach every argument you see in life this way. First of all, this will help you be more efficient on the GMAT CR. More importantly, this is precisely the mindset you need to have, once you have your MBA and are at work in the modern business world.

Does all this make sense?
Mike :-)



Hi Mike,

Thank you for helping me out here and thanks for the suggestions.

I think I am in serious problem here.I am a native English speaker with terrible Comprehension skills. :|

I was studying the CR and RC and their rules and applying them in the questions. But, the real problem with me that you correctly analyzed is my inability to comprehend English text in a speedy manner.

Could you please suggest me what are the English journals or newspapers that I should start studying ?
I appeared for GMAT earlier this week and got only 590 with Q47 and disastrous V25.I literally lost the capability to comprehend the passages half past the exam.When I started a sentence I even forgot the first part when I reached the end :( :( .

Please help

Thanks
Tryambak
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Re: The Spotted Mole is a rodent that burrows underground and [#permalink]
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tryambaks wrote:
Hi Mike,

Thank you for helping me out here and thanks for the suggestions.

I think I am in serious problem here.I am a native English speaker with terrible Comprehension skills. :|

I was studying the CR and RC and their rules and applying them in the questions. But, the real problem with me that you correctly analyzed is my inability to comprehend English text in a speedy manner.

Could you please suggest me what are the English journals or newspapers that I should start studying ?
I appeared for GMAT earlier this week and got only 590 with Q47 and disastrous V25.I literally lost the capability to comprehend the passages half past the exam.When I started a sentence I even forgot the first part when I reached the end :( :( .

Please help

Thanks
Tryambak

Dear Tryambak,
My friend, I am happy to respond. :-)

I don't know whether you have to take the TOEFL or have already taken it, but Magoosh has a TOEFL course that could help you with many of the basics of English. Even if you don't have to take the test, you may still find some articles on the free TOEFL blog helpful:
https://magoosh.com/toefl/

I like what gmatser1 recommended. The very best thing you could do to build your Verbal comprehension is to cultivate the habit of reading. This means you should read for at least an hour a day every single day without fail. That's an hour over and above any GMAT-specific practice you do. I will say that gmatser1 already recommended some very good sources. You will find more here:
https://magoosh.com/gmat/2014/how-to-imp ... bal-score/
https://magoosh.com/gmat/2012/gmat-reading-list/

Finally, I will say that the Magoosh GMAT product has an extensive Verbal section with a number of lessons, including a long series on grammar. Here's a sample:
https://gmat.magoosh.com/lessons/914-th ... rb-mistake
Furthermore, every single Magoosh practice question has its own video explanation. This sort of immediate feedback, after each and every question, is exactly what you need to accelerate your understanding of English. Here's a sample SC question:
https://gmat.magoosh.com/questions/3563
Here's a sample CR question:
https://gmat.magoosh.com/questions/5405
When you submit your answer to each question, the following page will have the VE. Finally, notice that you are eligible for Magoosh's score guarantee. You already have an official GMAT, so if you follow all the requirements, we guarantee at least a 50 point increase. Of course, many of our students see much bigger increases than that.

Please let me know if you have any further questions.

Mike :-)
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Re: The Spotted Mole is a rodent that burrows underground and [#permalink]
mikemcgarry wrote:
jlgdr wrote:
A sounded too extreme, but still wouldn't it have to be true? Could someone clarify this please?

Disclosure: I picked

Cheers!
J :)

Dear jlgdr,
I'm happy to respond. :-)

First of all, remember, the opposite of "all" is not "none." The opposite of "all" is simply "not all" --- of course, "all" means 100%, but "not all" could be 1%, 10%, 50%, 80% or 99.9%.

So, suppose (A) is false. Suppose it's not true that the "birds of prey capture and kill every single Spotted Mole that comes above ground." Suppose of an original population of 1000 Spotted Moles on a particular, the birds of prey kill all but 7, and some 7 particularly lucky or particularly fast or crafty Spotted Moles survive. Well, in that case, the birds of prey did not kill "every single" one, but if there are only 7 left, they are not going to pose much of a threat to the farm. The spotted hawks could kill over 99%, the vast majority of the moles, and even though they didn't kill every last one, it's enough to protect the farms.

Does all this make sense?
Mike :-)


Hi mikemcgarry
I think this question needs to be reworded as the conclusion which is derived from the facts is that the Spotted mole poses no threat.
No is too extreme here and according to choice A) even if a small fraction of moles survive (e: 7/1000) we cannot conclude that these moles pose no threat.If it was negligible threat,A) could be eliminated but no threat is too extreme and thus A cannot be eliminated.
Is there any mistake in my reasoning here ?

Thanks,
Saksham.
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