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Re: A moderately large city is redesigning its central downtown area and [#permalink]
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c3tangerines wrote:
A lot of the explanations on why D is wrong attacks how "restrictive" the lanes will be. I assumed that if the number of lanes were reduced, that would be the restriction, and there wouldn't be anything a car could do? Would how often they drive on the curb create a certain degree of restriction that you can quantify? I'm not sure if that line of thinking makes sense. If someone can explain, that would be great.

The plan is to reduce, or restrict, the number of lanes for automobiles. Will this be accomplished with curbs, as you have suggested? Or will the city just put up signs, or paint lines on the road? We're just not given this information, so we can't say one way or another.

(D) talks about how rigorously this restriction is enforced -- in other words, is someone from the city making sure that people actually follow the rules? Or are cars allowed to ignore the curbs, signs, painted lines, etc? According to (D), more people will be attracted to downtown businesses if someone is there to rigorously enforced the restrictions vs. if there is not someone to rigorously enforce them.

The issue is that the plan in the passage doesn't mention enforcement at all, so the comparison in (D) doesn't give us any insight into whether the plan will work. We want to compare how many people shop downtown if the plan is in place vs. if the plan is not in place.

(D) gives us info on the wrong comparison, so eliminate (D).

I hope that helps!
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Re: A moderately large city is redesigning its central downtown area and [#permalink]
GMATNinja wrote:
c3tangerines wrote:
A lot of the explanations on why D is wrong attacks how "restrictive" the lanes will be. I assumed that if the number of lanes were reduced, that would be the restriction, and there wouldn't be anything a car could do? Would how often they drive on the curb create a certain degree of restriction that you can quantify? I'm not sure if that line of thinking makes sense. If someone can explain, that would be great.

The plan is to reduce, or restrict, the number of lanes for automobiles. Will this be accomplished with curbs, as you have suggested? Or will the city just put up signs, or paint lines on the road? We're just not given this information, so we can't say one way or another.

(D) talks about how rigorously this restriction is enforced -- in other words, is someone from the city making sure that people actually follow the rules? Or are cars allowed to ignore the curbs, signs, painted lines, etc? According to (D), more people will be attracted to downtown businesses if someone is there to rigorously enforced the restrictions vs. if there is not someone to rigorously enforce them.

The issue is that the plan in the passage doesn't mention enforcement at all, so the comparison in (D) doesn't give us any insight into whether the plan will work. We want to compare how many people shop downtown if the plan is in place vs. if the plan is not in place.

(D) gives us info on the wrong comparison, so eliminate (D).

I hope that helps!



Ah okay, that definitely makes sense now. When I first read the question, I took “reduce” to be literal. As in those lanes were literally gone now. Which is why I thought the level of regulation didn’t mean anything. Thanks!

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A moderately large city is redesigning its central downtown area and [#permalink]
KarishmaB wrote:

In real life too, if 100% adherence improves situation, it does not imply 50% adherence is likely to improve the situation somewhat.


Thank you KarishmaB for your elaboration. :)
I can finally see this point now. It is really cool that these CR questions can often teach me something new or clear up a misconception.

Thank you for you time and thank you for helping me learn.

AndrewN wrote:
I agree wholeheartedly with the above. I can think of no other members who have spent so much time responding to each point someone has raised in response to a query. Several of my kudos have gone to GraceSCKao, and I look forward to seeing more after-the-fact analyses, which I believe can serve just as well as the Expert responses themselves to guide other members of the community.


AndrewN thank you. :)
I appreciate experts' and members' responses and explanations, and I think that in most cases, writing a following post is the least I can do to express my thankfulness. (In some cases, if I feel that I cannot bring a new point or view to the discussion, I chose not to write the following posts.)

AndrewN wrote:
There is no way to tell sometimes what anything other than 100 percent adherence will produce. We cannot assume that a tiered system of benefits will result. I do wonder whether a certain degree of cultural bias may be at work here.

I suppose that in the end, these considerations demonstrate once again that we cannot let real-world knowledge cloud our reasoning of GMAT™ logic. We cannot make assumptions about society based on what our own experience of that term may be. We just have to take what we see on the screen at face value.


Personally, I think sometimes using the real-world knowledge helps me greatly pre-think the correct answer in CR questions, but sometimes it just leads me to a different way, or worse, the opposite way. I remember for another CR question that talks about asthma, because I had a wrong idea then that people with asthma cannot exercise intensely, I had a serious doubt for the correct answer. (None of my friends I know with asthma can exercise intensely, and I also thought of Leonard in The Big Bang Theory.)

The harm of rejecting the correct answer might outweigh the benefits of efficiently pre-thinking the correct answer, so I agree with you Andrew that it is better to be as objective as possible for solving these CR questions. (Sometimes doing so is hard, though, since the real-world experience and common sense can be confused.)

AndrewN wrote:
I am not sure how things may work in Taiwan, but when I visited Japan, for instance, I saw not a single piece of litter in the largest city in the world, no spray-painted areas under bridges. I did not even feel unsafe walking through a supposed yakuza-run red-light district at 3 in the morning (with a friend—I was not up to anything suspicious or naughty). My impression was that in Japan, although I am not so naïf as to think that nobody breaks the law, such activity is not done as openly as it may be in the U.S. To tie this into the question at hand, I suspect that in Japan, if the plan was to reduce the number of lanes for automobiles and trucks and increase those for bicycles and pedestrians... to attract more workers and shoppers to downtown businesses, and if that plan were adhered to with less than 100 percent compliance, it would still prove a success (and it would probably be adhered to with 99 percent compliance).

In the U.S., to borrow the New York catchphrase, Fuhgeddaboudit. I cannot tell you how many times, as a cyclist and commuter, I have been shouted at, honked at (by car horns), swerved at, and even been the target of a hurled drink or banana peel, all for riding my bike on the side of the road. (I do adhere to the laws when on my bike, since, you know, I do not want to get killed.)


Thank you for your interesting example.
I've been to Japan for several times. Although generally it is a safe country, walking on the streets at 3AM could still be a bit dangerous. But since you are male and a foreign tourist, it is likely that you are not the targets of the criminal activists. (I still sincerely suggest that you not do so the next time.)

I am not familiar with other continents, but in Asia, the degree that citizens follow the government's plan might be the highest in Japan. As for Taiwan, it is not bad but generally people are not that obedient (some people might ignore the measures for the sake of convenience. ) But overall, when a plan is implemented by a normal degree, it will still have some effects here. I've definitely let this real-world experience affect my reasoning in this CR question. :)

Thank you for your time and thoughts.
Thank you for helping me learn.
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Re: A moderately large city is redesigning its central downtown area and [#permalink]
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Quote:
AnishPassi wrote:
Eliminating D hinges on precisely understanding what the word 'otherwise' implies.

I. Does the option state that if lane restrictions are rigorously enforced, more people will be attracted to downtown businesses than would be if the lane restrictions are not rigorously enforced?

II. Or, does it state that if lane restrictions are rigorously enforced, more people will be attracted to downtown businesses than would be if the lane restrictions were not even implemented (present scenario)?

Pretty much all posts have taken the option to mean the second interpretation (II), whereas hope you notice now that the option actually means the first interpretation (I).


I appreciate this breakdown "I" and "II," but does not the option (D), with the phrasing "otherwise," refer to all the situations except for the situation in which the plan is enforced strictly? I tend to view "otherwise" as one of the "logical opposite" indicators-- "black" vs "not black," instead of "white"--is not it? To me, the option (D) means that more people will be likely attracted to downtown businesses when the plan is strictly enforced than when there is no plan (a) or when the plan is not strictly enforced (b).


Hi GraceSCKao,

You've quoted a part of my post, so I wish to clarify that.

I agree with what you've written in the highlighted portion.

I do have an issue with your last line here, though.

Let me try to explain.


Answer this question for me:

Q: Are you extremely rude?

It is a yes/ no question.

I don't know you, but I'd imagine your answer would be 'no'.

If I'm correct, your answer basically is: No, I am not extremely rude.

Does that mean that you are rude, just not 'extremely rude'?

No, right? It is very much possible that you are not rude at all.

Black v/s not black is exactly what we're doing here too.
Rigorously enforced v/s not rigorously enforced.

Does that make sense?
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A moderately large city is redesigning its central downtown area and [#permalink]
KarishmaB wrote:
Bunuel wrote:
A moderately large city is redesigning its central downtown area and is considering a plan that would reduce the number of lanes for automobiles and trucks and increase those for bicycles and pedestrians. The intent is to attract more workers and shoppers to downtown businesses by making downtown easier to reach and more pleasant to move around in.

Which of the following would, if true, most strongly support the prediction that the plan would achieve its goal?

A. People who make a habit of walking or bicycling whenever feasible derive significant health benefits from doing so.
B. Most people who prefer to shop at suburban malls instead of downtown urban areas do so because parking is easier and cheaper at the former.
C. In other moderately sized cities where measures were taken to make downtowns more accessible for walkers and cyclists, downtown businesses began to thrive.
D. If the proposed lane restrictions on drivers are rigorously enforced, more people will likely be attracted to downtown businesses than would otherwise be.
E. Most people who own and frequently ride bicycles for recreational purposes live at a significant distance from downtown urban areas.


CR95631.01
OG2020 NEW QUESTION


The problem with (D) is very subtle.

Take a simpler example.

Me: I want to lose 10 pounds.
Dietician: I am giving you this diet chart.

Will I lose 10 pounds?

A: Other people who were GIVEN this diet chart lost 10 pounds.
B: If you FOLLOW this diet strictly, you will lose 10 pounds.

One has to predict whether I will lose 10 pounds. What helps in saying whether I will or not? Does A help or B help?
All one knows is that I got the diet chart. If other people who got the diet chart lost pounds, it does make it more likely that I will lose too. So A helps.
Does one know whether I will follow the diet chart strictly? No. One needs more information for that to help.

Though I admit, this is a tough one. I know that if situations are comparable, a success story of another town is a strengthener for a success story here so (C) certainly helps.
On the other hand, I am not sure how much leeway is left for the drivers when one reduces the number of lanes. But one is not allowed to question the OG answers hence there is some learning here.



Dear KarishmaB,
could you elucidate what is the conclusion of the stimulus?
If "Plan will achieve the goal" then which goal ?
If goal is reduction of the number of lanes will lead to attraction of more workers and shoppers then how does such conclusion related to "thrive" in option C ?
I declined C because it does not bolster the claim that plan will attract more workers and shoppers, and I chose E because it says that some people live far away and maybe additional lanes can help them reach destination. I now see that "most people who..." is just a subset, but the option E relates to the conclusion.

Quote:
E. Most people who own and frequently ride bicycles for recreational purposes live at a significant distance from downtown urban areas.


Thanks beforehand.

Originally posted by BLTN on 08 Nov 2022, 03:06.
Last edited by BLTN on 10 Nov 2022, 06:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A moderately large city is redesigning its central downtown area and [#permalink]
Similar cause and effect has been rejected in many CRs , then why is option C correct in this one ?
If an action plan worked in 1 city , doesn't necessarily mean it will work in the second
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Re: A moderately large city is redesigning its central downtown area and [#permalink]
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vidiyadav23 wrote:
Similar cause and effect has been rejected in many CRs , then why is option C correct in this one ?
If an action plan worked in 1 city , doesn't necessarily mean it will work in the second

Here's the thing.

We don't need to prove that the plan will work in this city. We just need more reason to believe that it will.

The fact presented by (C), that similar actions in MULTILPLE other moderately sized cities led to the desired results, does give us more reason to believe that the proposed course of action would lead to those results in this moderately sized city as well.
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Re: A moderately large city is redesigning its central downtown area and [#permalink]
I chose C because it was obvious to me that this is the ONLY possible correct answer, could a different answer be better? most probably.

I'm going to try to explain why D is wrong.

(D) If the proposed lane restrictions on drivers are rigorously enforced, more people will likely be attracted to downtown businesses than would otherwise be.
my thought process when eliminating D was ->
1- what if the restrictions were not enforced? do we know whether the people would follow it regardless the level of enforcement?
2- when saying "will likely to be attracted..." if a civil engineer comes to me with this idea and says "likely" I would probably discard it, likely to is based on what? how do I know that it's likely? what is this conclusion based on?
3- "otherwise be." how do I know for an absolute certainty that there's no other better solutions?

hence, C is the most accurate answer.
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Re: A moderately large city is redesigning its central downtown area and [#permalink]
After my thinking, here is some thoughts about C VS D.

C. is a fact.
D. uses conditional: if ….

If we want to use D to support as the question demand, then we have to make sure the If will come true. Then here comes the question. What we can use is only info from the given argument where we can't find info to make sure the IF condition would be true. Thus we can't choose D.

Besides, since C has "in other moderately sized cities", it rule out a common error for analogy.

After all, C is a support, though not conclusive as OG commented, while D goes with a condition which can't make sure to be true.

That's some thoughts. FYI.
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A moderately large city is redesigning its central downtown area and [#permalink]
Bunuel wrote:
A moderately large city is redesigning its central downtown area and is considering a plan that would reduce the number of lanes for automobiles and trucks and increase those for bicycles and pedestrians. The intent is to attract more workers and shoppers to downtown businesses by making downtown easier to reach and more pleasant to move around in.

Which of the following would, if true, most strongly support the prediction that the plan would achieve its goal?

(A) People who make a habit of walking or bicycling whenever feasible derive significant health benefits from doing so.
(B) Most people who prefer to shop at suburban malls instead of downtown urban areas do so because parking is easier and cheaper at the former.
(C) In other moderately sized cities where measures were taken to make downtowns more accessible for walkers and cyclists, downtown businesses began to thrive.
(D) If the proposed lane restrictions on drivers are rigorously enforced, more people will likely be attracted to downtown businesses than would otherwise be.
(E) Most people who own and frequently ride bicycles for recreational purposes live at a significant distance from downtown urban areas.


CR95631.01
OG2020 NEW QUESTION


Hi avigutman, IanStewart, KarishmaB.
GMATNinja


I have a doubt regarding this question:

The way I see it, Statement (D) is a conditional statement that creates two subsets of mutually exclusive possibilities:

(i) The proposed lane restrictions are implemented and then rigorously enforced; and
(ii)The proposed lane restrictions are implemented and then not rigorously enforced.

(since to rigorously impose something, we first have to implement that thing).

Statement (D) provides the outcome of scenario (i) above - that that would make the plan successful, but is silent on scenario (ii) above.


Now since the stimulus is silent on whether the plan includes its rigorous enforcement, can we not consider the enforcement a possibility and therefore infer that Statement (D), if true, does improve the odds of success of the plan?

(Similar to how for Statement (C), even though we don't know whether these other cities are similar enough to warrant a similar outcome; nevertheless, knowing that the plan was successful in these other cities does improve the odds of its success in our city)

Thanks for clarifying!
bt

Originally posted by Braintree on 18 Nov 2022, 13:35.
Last edited by Braintree on 18 Nov 2022, 16:21, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: A moderately large city is redesigning its central downtown area and [#permalink]
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Braintree wrote:
I have a doubt regarding this question:

The way I see it, Statement (D) is a conditional statement that creates two subsets of mutually exclusive possibilities:

(i) The proposed lane restrictions are rigorously enforced; and
(ii)The proposed lane restrictions are not rigorously enforced.

Now since the stimulus is silent on whether the plan includes its rigorous enforcement, can we not consider the enforcement a possibility and therefore infer that Statement (D), if true, does improve the odds of success of the plan?

But, Braintree, answer choice (D) doesn't compare outcomes of lane restrictions vs. no lane restrictions (that's the information we need in order to evaluate the plan's chances of achieving its goal). Instead, answer choice (D) is comparing outcomes of rigorous enforcement vs. no rigorous enforcement of lane restrictions. That's not at all helpful for evaluating the plan's chances of achieving its goal.
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A moderately large city is redesigning its central downtown area and [#permalink]
avigutman wrote:
Braintree wrote:
I have a doubt regarding this question:

The way I see it, Statement (D) is a conditional statement that creates two subsets of mutually exclusive possibilities:

(i) The proposed lane restrictions are rigorously enforced; and
(ii)The proposed lane restrictions are not rigorously enforced.

Now since the stimulus is silent on whether the plan includes its rigorous enforcement, can we not consider the enforcement a possibility and therefore infer that Statement (D), if true, does improve the odds of success of the plan?

But, Braintree, answer choice (D) doesn't compare outcomes of lane restrictions vs. no lane restrictions (that's the information we need in order to evaluate the plan's chances of achieving its goal). Instead, answer choice (D) is comparing outcomes of rigorous enforcement vs. no rigorous enforcement of lane restrictions. That's not at all helpful for evaluating the plan's chances of achieving its goal.


Thanks, avigutman.

But doesn't the option of having rigorous enforcement presupposes that the lane restrictions are actually implemented? So Statement (D) in effect is saying that for the plan to be successful, in addition to the lane restrictions being implemented, they would have to be rigorously imposed? Now the stimulus is silent on whether the plan includes 'rigorous enforcement' - it could, or it could not. But the statement does provide one scenarios in which the plan will succeed - that the proposed lane restrictions are rigorously enforced.

On what I think is parallel logic, the stimulus (or the statement itself) of Statement (C) is silent as to whether these other cities are similar enough to warrant a similar outcome of the proposed plan in the given city - they may be, or may not be. But the statement does provides one scenario in which the plan will succeed - that the other cities are similar enough to warrant a similar outcome.

thank you
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Re: A moderately large city is redesigning its central downtown area and [#permalink]
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Braintree wrote:
But doesn't the option of having rigorous enforcement presupposes that the lane restrictions are actually implemented? So Statement (D) in effect is saying that for the plan to be successful, in addition to the lane restrictions being implemented, they would have to be rigorously imposed? Now the stimulus is silent on whether the plan includes 'rigorous enforcement' - it could, or it could not. But the statement does provide one scenarios in which the plan will succeed - that the proposed lane restrictions are rigorously enforced.

Braintree where does answer choice (D) claim that the plan will succeed if the proposed lane restrictions are rigorously enforced? It merely claims that more people will likely be attracted to downtown businesses than would otherwise be. We don't know what "otherwise" looks like. "Otherwise" means that the proposed lane restrictions are NOT rigorously enforced. It's comparing the wrong scenarios, as I explained in my previous response.
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Re: A moderately large city is redesigning its central downtown area and [#permalink]
avigutman wrote:
Braintree wrote:
But doesn't the option of having rigorous enforcement presupposes that the lane restrictions are actually implemented? So Statement (D) in effect is saying that for the plan to be successful, in addition to the lane restrictions being implemented, they would have to be rigorously imposed? Now the stimulus is silent on whether the plan includes 'rigorous enforcement' - it could, or it could not. But the statement does provide one scenarios in which the plan will succeed - that the proposed lane restrictions are rigorously enforced.

Braintree where does answer choice (D) claim that the plan will succeed if the proposed lane restrictions are rigorously enforced? It merely claims that more people will likely be attracted to downtown businesses than would otherwise be. We don't know what "otherwise" looks like. "Otherwise" means that the proposed lane restrictions are NOT rigorously enforced. It's comparing the wrong scenarios, as I explained in my previous response.


Apologies - I think I didn't make my doubt clear enough. Let me try one more time. If it's not clear even then - I'll leave it be :-).

I understand that 'otherwise be' refers to 'not rigorously enforced'. But can we have rigorous enforcement of something that is not implemented in the first place? Rigorous enforcement has to be for something that is first implemented. So Statement (D) tells us that if the plan is implemented, and then rigorously enforced, then it will succeed.

So, what I'm trying to say is that we have a 2x2 matrix along the axes of 'implementation' and 'rigorous enforcement'. Now statement (D) provides confirmation of the success of one scenario - (lane restrictions implementation + rigorous enforcement). [But we don't know whether the restrictions are rigorously enforced or not]

In a similar vein, the scenarios created by Answer choice (C) can also be viewed as a 2x2 matrix along the axes of 'success of other cities' and 'similarities of other cities to our city'. Here too, Statement (C) provides confirmation of the success of one scenario (other cities have been succesful + other cities are similar to ours). [But we do not know whether other cities are similar to ours or not]

I have also edited my original query by adding some extra stuff in red.

Thank you so much!

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Re: A moderately large city is redesigning its central downtown area and [#permalink]
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Braintree wrote:
(D) tells us that if the plan is implemented, and then rigorously enforced, then it will succeed.

This is where you lose me, Braintree.
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Re: A moderately large city is redesigning its central downtown area and [#permalink]
avigutman wrote:
Braintree wrote:
(D) tells us that if the plan is implemented, and then rigorously enforced, then it will succeed.

This is where you lose me, Braintree.


Oh dear, I see it - the issue is with the latter part of the sentence: (D) tells us that if the plan is implemented, and then rigorously enforced, then it will succeed..

Answer choice (D) just says that "more people will likely be attracted..than would otherwise be.". And doesn't imply the overall success of the plan.

It could be that 'just' implementing the plan reduces the number of people, and subsequently rigorously implementing it slightly increases the number, but not to prior levels.

thnx!
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A moderately large city is redesigning its central downtown area and [#permalink]
Braintree wrote:
avigutman wrote:
Braintree wrote:
(D) tells us that if the plan is implemented, and then rigorously enforced, then it will succeed.

This is where you lose me, Braintree.


Oh dear, I see it - the issue is with the latter part of the sentence: (D) tells us that if the plan is implemented, and then rigorously enforced, then it will succeed..

Answer choice (D) just says that "more people will likely be attracted..than would otherwise be.". And doesn't imply the overall success of the plan.

It could be that 'just' implementing the plan reduces the number of people, and subsequently rigorously implementing it slightly increases the number, but not to prior levels.

thnx!
bt


Hi avigutman Braintree - dont you think the word "than otherwise be " covers BOTH scenarios
(1) if the plan is NOT EVEN IMPLEMENTED (i.e. current situation)
and/or
(2) if the plan is IMPLEMENTED but not enforced

So "rigorous enforcement" is BETTER than (1) and BETTER than (2).

-------------------------------------

Analogy
"I am not VERY rude. That means, i could be
(1) Little rude
(2) Not Rude at all.

Both scenarios are plausible.
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