Calling Darden 2008 Applicants

i think you under estimate. i don't think it's "anti-virginia tech" or rivals, but there most likely is an approximate number of people from the state the want to take, and preference for those individuals would most certainly go to UVa undergrads. When my father went to medical, some 25 years ago, he was matter of fact told by the admissions folks at Pitt Medical School that he was denied because he was undergrad at CMU. They told him they admitted a certain amount of Pittsburgh area students, and they wanted those students to come from Pitt, not Carnegie Mellon.

But there are plenty of reasons that UVa could deny me of course, but honestly, i think being from VT gives me an immediate strike.

Well i just have an waitlist from Cornell to speak of. Cornell and Darden were my sure schools but it has not turned out that way. I was hoping for a interview from Darden and I even got my application totally vetted by a current Darden student. On the website they say interviews will be conducted between 20th feb and 2nd march.Since that deadline has been crossed I must say things are looking bleak.

I believe you're drawing the wrong conclusion from the given data. Darden, like every other school, would like a diverse student body. They also want the highest quality students. The top students from Virginia who stay in the area tend to go to UVA, Georgetown, Duke, UNC and perhaps William and Mary. It's natural for top business schools to draw student
from top colleges. It happens everywhere, in every discipline.

It is totally incorrect to say that VT students have a strike against them. I think it is accurate to say that VT students must achieve at a higher level than UVA or G'town students because the hurdle to get into these undergrad schools is different, the depth and quality of the student pools are substantially different, and the level of competition is vastly different. But it's no different at Darden than anywhere else. I don't even need to look and I'd bet money that UCLA, Berkeley and Stanford are well represented at UCLA Anderson and that there aren't many people from Cal State Fullerton and Cal State Northridge, even though they are both nearby. Same reasoning applies, number and quality of the best students, quality of competition, and how difficult it was to get in.

So, there definitely are VT students at Darden, but there's no reason to believe that VT students would be admitted at the same rate students from UVA, G'Town, Duke or UNC (which are all well-represented at Darden). It's substantially easier to get into VT than any of these other schools, and the best talent in the region rarely (very very rarely) chooses VT over these other schools, so the depth and level of competition at VT are not comparable.

But it's silly to assert that VT is treated differently because of state rivalry. VT is treated in-line with other schools of similar quality, whichever those may be. To use another in-state schools as an example, I believe William and Mary is substantially overrepresented given it's modest size and national reputation, but from a yield standpoint it's logical for Darden (or any school) to admit students from area schools.

BTW, good luck to everyone applying this round. I think I saw in an email that campus interviews are scheduled for next week (it's our spring break so a lot of people will be gone) so good luck to everyone.

i understand your argument, but you're only making it clear that you're not a very long-term virginia resident, or even resident of region for too long. i was accepted to both UVa and VT in my undergrad. VT is a significantly stronger engineering program, significantly. Nearly nobody who is going engineering chooses UVa over VT. Any of the schools you mentioned UVa, Georgetown, Duke, UNC, and W&M are all pretty much liberal arts institutions. You failed to mention even one school that isn't, and as a result you show how VT does stand out in the state and region for engineering and tech students. To say that students in the area very very very very rarely choose VT over those places is just foolishness and again, you're clearly showing that you have absolutely no knowledge of the region at all in that regard, and why would you? Currently attending UVa hardly qualifies you as a virginia, maryland, or nc high school expert.

The fact that you're so quickly making assertions that "obviously the VT student is dumber than the Duke, W&M, or Georgetown student" shows just how easy it is to have that opinion. If you can draw that conclusion, why is it far fetched to say a UVa adcom couldn't? And you're making those claims, while actually trying to prove the adcoms won't think that way!

Again, i'm by no means bitter, like i said, UVa was last on my list of the schools i'm interested in (partly because of the rivalry, so when i'm not looking past it myself, i'm not saying the adcoms wont).

I understand your argument, and your argument is that students who went to undergrad at Virginia Tech are dumber than those who went to Duke or UVa so clearly unless they blow away the adcoms minds, then they have no shot. I wonder what's worse, the fact that they possibly would ignore you because you're a rival, or the possibility that they just immediately think you're inferior because you didn't attend UVa undergrad like you claim.

I highly doubt your assertion is true though, as plenty of folks seem to get into great schools without brand-name undergrad degrees.

i'm sure they just didn't like some aspect of my app that i thought they would. certainly everybody wants to bat 1.000 with there apps, and be given choices upon choices and not take the pride hit that a ding gives you, but i'm certain it'll happen more than once for me, that's the nature of the game. i'd rather get dinged from the bottom of my choices, than the top right!

The fact that you believe someone must be from the region to believe that VT stands out in one specific discipline proves my point. The best schools in the region (and the best schools everywhere) draw students nationally into a variety of fields. There plenty of students at Darden with engineering backgrounds, and at all business schools for that matter. If I went up to any of them and asked if they would trade their engineering degree from a 'liberal arts college' like Duke or UVA for a degree at VT, they would bust out laughing. This isn't the case only at Darden; this would be true anywhere in the US.

US News 2008 best colleges lists VT at #71. There's not reason to believe that VT should have any academic advantage over similarly ranked schools such as Clemson, SMU, Delaware or Michigan State or Stevens Institute of Technology. Of those schools, I personally know a current student who did their undergrad at Clemson, but the bottom line is that it would be rare to someone from any of those colleges. If there's more than 2 in any given year, I'd be shocked.

There's no doubt that people from lower ranked schools to get admitted to top business schools, but the simple fact is that students from lower ranked schools who gain admission almost always have elite academic credentials. If you browse through some of the resume books, you'll start to see a pattern that is impossible to ignore. Obviously you'll find a lot of brand name colleges; Harvard, Princeton, Stanford, MIT and such will be commonplace. Next, you'll find people from liberal arts colleges (lots of people from both Williams and Amherst here) as well as the public elite (Berkeley, Michigan, UCLA, UVA, perhaps Texas and UNC). Again, any of the above schools are commonplace and if you browse through enough you'll probably come to realize that 60-80% of the domestic students come from this pool. Then there's a group I kind of think of as 'best school in the state' or perhaps 'best school in the region'. It makes perfect sense that someone from Iowa or Georgia might not have the wherewithal or even the desire to pay loads of money and travel far from home. People who attend the flagship state university or well-respected regional universities are are generally given the benefit of the doubt if they have excellent academic credentials. It's not unusual to see someone from The University of Wisconsin, or the University of Colorado or something like that, but as you get familiar with the profiles, you'll come to expect to see things like 'magna cum laude' and 'student body president' next to their profiles. William and Mary (US Ranked #33) is a good example in Virginia; I know of at least 3 current first years from there; this school has a modest national reputation, but is well regarded regionally. There's absolutely no reason to believe that VT is better regarded than W&M - I know lots of people from this area and nobody would agree to that; so there's no reason to think that VT would every place more people at Darden than W&M (guessing 2-3 per year on average).

Only after each of these these do you have all the other schools. If you're undergraduate school didn't fall into one of the above groups, then the way you distinguish yourself academically is to finish near the to of your class. The bottom line is that it would be pretty shocking to see a profile for someone at any of the top business schools from any of the schools ranked similarly to VT who didn't also have some pretty distinguishing academic achievements listed in their profiles. The simple math is that 80-90% of the people at top business schools will be from the ivy league, national elite, public elite, elite liberal arts and flagship state U's (I'm talking just about domestic colleges; international is a separate discussion). At a school the size of Darden, that's going to leave 10 maybe 15 seats per year for people from schools that don't fit into one of the above groups.

You argument here is that the USNews or whatever publication decides to determine rankings is irrelevant, since VT is a higher ranked engineering school than most likely any of the schools you have mentioned (really i'm certain it's ranked higher than all you've mentioned except Duke). Even though those students recognize that their school is not as highly ranked (per usnews with regards to engineering), they wouldn't dare give up there brand name, and i don't disagree with you. I bet most would say that. However, later in your post, you discuss the USNews rankings, and where VT places, and how it places behind some schools you've mentioned and therefore it isn't as competitive or "good". If you want to use the rankings in your argument, i think you need to keep it consistent throughout. Sounds to me like somebody is trying to have there cake and eat it too.

You're also somehow trying to say i'm saying VT should have an advantage over any school? I'm not making any argument for that, i'm arguing about how it's viewed as a negative because it's in state competition. My point was from an engineering assessment, there are a lot of reasons people would choose to attend Virginia Tech over duke, uva, georgetown, or william and mary. The fact that i'm from the region is how i know that many students make this choice time and time again, the fact that you're NOT from the region shows that you have no basis for saying the things you said in your previous post, which was you claiming ALL the top students go to such and such schools, that was flat out wrong and clearly the statement of a person who hasn't done any research into it. Contrary to what you wrote in your most recent post, you don't have to be from the region to know that VT is a higher ranked engineering school, all you have to be is literate and US News gives you those rankings. Different people have different opinions, some of us out there, even when we applied to college (believe it or not) were smart enough to realize that overall ranking wasn't the only aspect, some of us back then even realized that fit was an important thing.

Everything you're writing is 100% counter to the "application process". If schools only took individuals with name brand college degrees, that's certainly not the "diversity" you said darden strives for!

Again if you read back, i know this process exists, it existed 30 or so odd years ago when my father was going to medical school, and he was coming from the more prestigious institution to the less prestigious (CMU to pitt). It happens, i know you want to defend your school, you made your choice to attend it and i'm not dogging the university, i'm not even looking at them negatively for doing what i think they're doing. i do however, think you're wrong.

this is all very far off from the context of what this thread is supposed to be about. if you'd like to bash VT more, you're more than welcome too, or if you want to talk about how you find yourself better than others on the boards because you feel UCLA, UVa, and Michigan (your schools) are a cut above many other peoples heads that's great too, but i don't imagine that's all that relevant here either.

all i'm saying is that your comments and opinions are only reiterating my original rankings system, which had UVa last, and it looks like their opinion of me was similar. we weren't a good fit in undergrad, i always had my doubts we'd be one here. thanks for strengthening the argument.

I have no personal interest in VT's standing, however I do have a substantial distaste for misinformation, whether it regards Darden, or any other subject here at GMATclub. I have a big problem with BS. So, I do have a personal impression of VT as a school, and even as an engineering school since I have lots of friends with backgrounds in Engineering. Still, I concede the my impression could be wrong, so I decided to look up the US News rankings for engineering schools. The validity of each ranking system has been widely discussed around these parts, but US News is probably the most broadly used, certainly regarding undergraduate schools, and it's rankings probably are in line with how adcoms view colleges.

Your messages imply, as an engineering school, that VT is considered a top school, and based on its reputation as an engineering school it should be considered a top school when compared with other schools in their areas of strength (or liberal arts as you suggest). And...VT is ranked the #33 engineering school by US News. That's hardly an argument that an engineering student at VT somehow exceeds the general reputation of the university, or that such a student has faced tougher competition than students in other fields at other quality schools.

If I'm an adcom and I'm looking to admit some students with engineering backgrounds, where would I turn? Hmm, Georgia Tech is the 4th ranked engineering school, and not all that far away. Maryland (#16) and Johns Hopkins (#26) are a state away, and NC State is essentially tied with VT. But really, if I'm going to admit some engineering students I'd rather they came from MIT, Berkeley, Michigan, Harvard, Princeton, UCLA, Columbia, etc. etc. etc... Frankly, there is no shortage of applicants with engineering backgrounds; in fact there is currently an astounding overabundance of people with such backgrounds applying to business school. Business schools can fill their classes with top engineering students from top colleges around the world, so there is little appeal, or need for that matter, for top business schools to admit engineering students from anything but the top schools.

If your argument is that schools should admit more engineering students, well, that's a different matter. And if you're argument is that VT is actually better than most of the schools ranked about it, you can argue with the folks at US News, but it really doesn't matter. From the standpoint of an Adcom, VT's reputation likely falls pretty much in line with its US News ranking as the #71 college and the #33 engineering school. It's not just the adcoms at Darden that look at VT in this way; I fail to see why adcoms anywhere else would look at it any differently.

Just for comparison, I decided to see if Darden treats VT students any differently than other top schools. I wanted to compare with Duke because that seems to be the most logical choice, but I didn't have any data. So, instead I looked at a Wharton resume pack from about 3-4 years ago with 355 resumes, and a Tuck resume pack from their investment management club with 40 resumes.

In the Wharton resumes, zero out of 355 students attended VT undergrad. VT did show up one time as a master's degree for a student with a degree from IIT; just to note, this person had a GPA of 3.96 and was Phi Beta Kappa. As suggested before, these are the type of credentials you expect to see from schools of this nature.

Wharton is a reasonable data point because it's not that far from Virginia, definitely driving distance. As a comparison, NC State showed up once as an undergrad school (3.97/4.0, summa cum laude, and a bunch of other honors). That's a comparable school, with again a good indication of the required level academic achievement.

At Tuck, zero out of 40 students attended VT undergrad. Small pool, out of the way school. Not sure the data is useful in this case.

But anyhow, a look at 400 or so resumes from other stop schools shows that Darden's view of VT is no different than that of other stop schools. And getting back to your original (ridiculous) point, Darden's view of VT has nothing to do with school rivalry because it's a view shared by other top schools. I'll restate and earlier point that it would be shocking to see more than a few VT students per year at any of the top business schools, and this is pretty much in line with their reputation as a college and as an engineering school.

wow, how could i be so blind...
that was actually it. you're right. you're a genius. man, thank goodness you're here.

i get it you think vt sucks. and you somehow think the adcoms aren't as petty as you (somebody has to be awfully petty to be as into bashing somebody's intelligence and school as much as you are.) i can only hope they're not as petty as you.

i feel sorry for you man. best of luck going forward, you're gonna need it..

The irony is unbelievable. Your start the conversation by making the totally unwarranted suggestion that adcoms are petty - that they would ding people because of a school rivalry; then you say that you hope they aren't petty? Amazing.

For the record, I didn't bash either you or your school. I've just been pointing out that VT receives a level of respect in line with it's rankings and reputation. I've seen no reason to disparage other schools similarly ranked in the 60's and 70's for the benefit of VT.

Finally, an ad hominem, condescending, holier-than-thou argument is a great way to get your point across.

Go YELLOW JACKETS!!!!

(Sorry, just had to butt in and cheer for my alma mater)

I was at Day @ Darden in February and met two people that went to VT (I think). Just prove yourself on your application, and you shouldn't have a problem.

im from the wash dc area, and have lived in both maryland and virginia. theres a big rivalry between uva-vt, but i really doubt that rivalry comes into play when it comes down to bschool admissions. first of all the graduate students are far less into school rivalries than undergrads are. most schools use current students as part of the admissions process and even though there are more uva grads at darden than other top bschools, most did not go to uva and probably dont care much for the rivalry. admissions committee members also come from diverse educational backgrounds, that they probably have their own loyalties to their own alma maters.

i definitely understand why somebody would choose to go to vt over uva for engineering... i studied computer science at maryland and didnt consider any of the area schools such as uva/gtown because they are not very strong in that field. i will admit that the acc rivalry with uva/duke prevented me from applying to either school for bschool. i would expect the admissions committees to be more mature than i am

thunderdogg, I'm warning you right here. This kind of sarcasm and attitude is NOT welcome at GMATClub. You and pelihu were having a good spirited debate until this point. I read through the very long posts and did not find that pelihu was being insulting or offensive. He might have claimed something that might not be true or everyone's opinion, but he never tried to insult anyone blatantly.

Keep this kind of outburst off these boards and everyone will have a better time helping each other out here.

K.

The hope, was toward adcoms in general (although i guess, for you, i could've spelled that out). I did make the suggestion, and again, go back to the fact that i have evidence it has occurred (no not at UVa) but that it has occured. You've provided no evidence to the contrary, but you do think UVa doesn't need to worry about the rivalry anyways because they just categorize VT as garbage (along with 95% of the schools in the US) purely due to the fact that they're not Ivy, Elite, or the signature state school.

I think your point is silly, and is repeatedly shown in this forum to be untrue as many students have proven that getting into excellent business schools can be done and is done regularly on this forum.

The only other thing i ever suggested was that you have no clue with regards to the college selection of high school students in this region, although you attempted to claim that you did. I never made outlandish claims about VT being the best engineering school, or even in the top 10 in the country. I merely claimed that it was higher ranked than any school you had mentioned at that time as the schools that almost all the top students in that area attend.

you continue to think that somewhere i made some post about how VT is better than other schools of a similar rank, you've mentioned that in 3 or 4 posts. i'm not sure why you continue to pretend i said anything like that, i guess you think that making up that statement helps your argument? my point was always that i think an individual from a similarly ranked school (i.e. a Clemson or Michigan State as you referenced) would have a much better chance of going to darden than a comparable VT student. you've gone to schools with strong rivals (mich/osu and ucla/usc), although i have no experience with those schools, the rivalry seems equivalent in animosity as between VT/UVa. The animosity is significant, significant enough that i think it could sway an admission, and signficant enough that i think your idea of a VT student applicant to UVa sample would be irrelevant because i strongly doubt many VT grads even consider applying. I certainly wouldn't have if i was not looking at a very specific target region due to my wifes medical license.

In the end, I had no "point" left to get across my argument was clear and repeated (repeated uselessly as you continued to ignore it and make up points you seemed to think helped you out). Well i guess i did have a final point, i didn't particularly like you (but hey, looks like the msg board admins like you much more than me, so you've got some friends!) and i think i got that point across successfully? I had made my argument, and attempted to bring you back to it numerous times before deciding it was no longer worth it since all you wanted to do was talk about how you thought virginia tech was crappy, which was never really relevant in the first place.

i think it's a viable negative and have first hand experience that rivalries can be a factor, you think it doesn't matter because UVa should never have to bother with a student from such a "lowbrow" school like VT (or clemson, or michigan state or whatever college). to each his own i guess.

Kryzak,

I don't know why you are reprimanding Thunderdogg...How has he been out of line? Though I do not agree with his view, I actually have found this thread to be very entertaining. It showcases how those that go to elite schools may sometimes view 'non-elite' schools.

I think Pelihu is right. One may not like it, but overall school reputation matters. And at the end of the day, rivalries in athletics do not spil into the admissions process. But quality of the undergrad institution OVERALL does.

MGO, I read both people's posts and found it entertaining and enlightening, which I have NO problems with, until the very end when thunderdogg just started being insulting. I really have ZERO personal interest or investment in whether VT and Darden is a good school or not, btw.

Here is what I "reprimanded" thunderdogg for (bolded parts)


That is *not* tolerated here on the boards. Just my views. I'm not going to do anything more than just saying it here, but Praetorian makes the final call. If he's ok with it, then I will shut up. But generally I think most of the mods will be on the same page when it comes to sarcasm that does not contribute to the discussion.

As long as we do not become personal, we can disagree all we want. As soon as I become personal, people stop listening to me and it defeats the whole purpose of the discussion.

Be nice. We really need dissent on the forums, but we should make sure that dissent and disrespect stay exclusive. Using positive words is one nice way to do that. If we want to keep the community refreshing and relevant, we need dissent, but more importantly we need cooperation and mutual respect for each other. This is really all up to you. take care of this place. It has taken a lot of work to build it.

Let the greater purpose of community prevail.