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Re: Excavation of the ancient city of Kourion on the island of Cyprus reve [#permalink]
Hi avigutman - how do you see this argument different from this Official CR question.

Are both of the 2 arguments comparable you think ?

To me they are comparable

# 1) This specific argument
Based on evidence == X must have caused Y

# 2) Tagged Official CR question. argument
Based on evidence == Therefore, A must be true

Do you think these are comparable arguments ?
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Re: Excavation of the ancient city of Kourion on the island of Cyprus reve [#permalink]
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jabhatta2 wrote:
Hi avigutman - how do you see this argument different from this Official CR question.

Are both of the 2 arguments comparable you think ?

To me they are comparable

# 1) This specific argument
Based on evidence == X must have caused Y

# 2) Tagged Official CR question. argument
Based on evidence == Therefore, A must be true

Do you think these are comparable arguments ?


jabhatta2 If you abstract the arguments to a high enough degree, as you seem to be doing here, almost all CR arguments are comparable.
It's like asking whether you and Elon Musk are comparable. After all, you're both human, so surely the answer is yes.
When I look at these two arguments, here's what I see:

Quote:
Excavation of the ancient city of Kourion on the island of Cyprus revealed a pattern of debris and collapsed buildings typical of towns devestated by earthquakes. Archaeologists have hypothesized that the destruction was due to a major earthquake known to have occured near the island in A.D. 365.

Abstraction:
Since a pattern is typical of a particular natural phenomenon, this particular instance of the pattern was the result of a particular known major instance of that phenomenon.
I would point to the words "typical" and "particular" as the most important words above.

Quote:
Often patients with ankle fractures that are stable, and thus do not require surgery, are given follow-up x-ray because their orthopedists are concerned about possibly having misjudged the stability of the fracture. When a number of follow-up x-rays were reviewed, however, all the fractures that had initially been judged stable were found to have healed correctly. Therefore, it is a waste of money to order follow-up x-rays of ankle fracture initially judged stable.

Abstraction:
Money spent on catching false negative diagnoses of a particular ailment is a waste, since none were found when a number of such attempts were reviewed.
Alternatively:
A number of instances of a particular test were found, upon review, to have been a waste of money. Therefore, all instances of that particular test are a waste of money.
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Re: Excavation of the ancient city of Kourion on the island of Cyprus reve [#permalink]
Hi avigutman - my apologies - i think i completely misfired with the above question.

Please ignore the above q.

I want to re-phrase my question completely as i dont think i asked what i was hoping to understand

Originally posted by jabhatta2 on 12 Feb 2022, 17:54.
Last edited by jabhatta2 on 12 Feb 2022, 18:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Excavation of the ancient city of Kourion on the island of Cyprus reve [#permalink]
avigutman - In the original question - I personally struggled to eliminate C. I thought C DID strengthen

I keep reading that C is wrong as option C repeats what is already in the passage.

But by whom ?

Option C is describing what ANOTHER ENTITY believes [modern histories are different from archeologists at the end of the day]

Why am I focussing so much on what ANOTHER ENTITY is saying ?

Below..

Originally posted by jabhatta2 on 12 Feb 2022, 17:58.
Last edited by jabhatta2 on 12 Feb 2022, 18:28, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Excavation of the ancient city of Kourion on the island of Cyprus reve [#permalink]
^^^^

I think I care because I am being swayed by the OA's in these 2 official strengthen questions [ Official CR # 1 & Official CR # 2]. The trend to strengthen is the same -

-- Describe ANOTHER entity (different from the ENTITY mentioned in the passage)
-- This SECOND entity [another city or another newspaper) -- says, well the conclusion in the passage (businesses thriving or dip in viewership) DID OCCUR with this second entity
-- Hence the argument is strengthened.
-- Whatever the 1st entity is concluding -- this conclusion is supposedly more likely to be true because we saw the conclusion, happen with the SECOND entity

Coming back to the original question - I thought Option C strengthened in a similar fashion

-- ANOTHER entity (modern histories) is described
-- What is this ANOTHER entity saying ?
-- This ANOTHER entity is stating an earthquake DID OCCUR around that same time
-- Because this 2nd entity is describing, an earthquake did occur around 365 AD --

the hypothesis of the FIRST ENTITY (archeologists) - is a bit more likely to be true because of what the 2nd entity is describing.
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Re: Excavation of the ancient city of Kourion on the island of Cyprus reve [#permalink]
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Quote:
A major network news organization experienced a drop in viewership in the week following the airing of a controversial report on the economy. The network also received a very large number of complaints regarding the report. The network, however, maintains that negative reactions to the report had nothing to do with its loss of viewers.

The OA tells us that the drop in viewership wasn't isolated to this particular network. It is NOT confirming something that we already knew from the argument. This is NEW INFO.

Quote:
A moderately large city is redesigning its central downtown area and is considering a plan that would reduce the number of lanes for automobiles and trucks and increase those for bicycles and pedestrians. The intent is to attract more workers and shoppers to downtown businesses by making downtown easier to reach and more pleasant to move around in.

The argument proposes a plan to achieve a particular goal, and the OA tells us that in other, similar situations, that plan indeed achieved the stated goal. It is NOT confirming something that we already knew from the argument. This is NEW INFO.

In this problem, on the other hand, look at what the argument tells us:
Quote:
a major earthquake known to have occured near the island in A.D. 365

Note, jabhatta2, that this is not the Archaeologists' hypothesis. Their hypothesis is that the destruction was due to a major earthquake.

After reading this:
Quote:
a major earthquake known to have occured near the island in A.D. 365

Are you thinking: "oh, I wonder what percent of modern histories of Cyprus mention that an earthquake occured near the island in A.D. 365... If I find out that more than 50% mention it, that would increase my confidence in the Archaeologists' hypothesis."

No, why would any of that matter if a major earthquake is known to have occured near the island in A.D. 365? We should be looking for an answer choice that tells us something we don't already know.
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Re: Excavation of the ancient city of Kourion on the island of Cyprus reve [#permalink]
avigutman wrote:
In this problem, on the other hand, look at what the argument tells us:
Quote:
a major earthquake known to have occured near the island in A.D. 365

Note, jabhatta2, that this is not the Archaeologists' hypothesis. Their hypothesis is that the destruction was due to a major earthquake.

After reading this:
Quote:
a major earthquake known to have occured near the island in A.D. 365

Are you thinking: "oh, I wonder what percent of modern histories of Cyprus mention that an earthquake occured near the island in A.D. 365... If I find out that more than 50% mention it, that would increase my confidence in the Archaeologists' hypothesis."

No, why would any of that matter if a major earthquake is known to have occured near the island in A.D. 365? We should be looking for an answer choice that tells us something we don't already know.


Hi avigutman - thank you so much for following up – I think what you are implying in the above specifically with regards to the original CR question -

  • Known to have occurred in AD 365 is a FACT …Per the argument -- the earthquake DID occur in 365 AD.
  • That was surprising to me …I think the words “known to have occurred’ gave me at-least the impression – there is no 100 % consensus whether there was an earthquake in 365 AD or not
  • I think that’s why I gravitated towards C because I was hoping to strengthen this piece (if the earthquake DID happen in 365 AD or not)

Originally posted by jabhatta2 on 13 Feb 2022, 08:40.
Last edited by jabhatta2 on 13 Feb 2022, 08:51, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Excavation of the ancient city of Kourion on the island of Cyprus reve [#permalink]
^^^ If I say that and make up this argument -- here are my notes on why B is a strengthener

Quote:
  • Fact - we all know, an earthquake happened in 365 AD
  • Premise - Excavation of the ancient city of Kourion revealed a pattern of debris and collapsed buildings typical of towns devastated by earthquakes
  • Conclusion - Destruction was due to a major earthquake


As an excercise, here are some loopholes i thought about
Quote:
(loophole #1) maybe the earthquake did take place in 365 AD but did the destruction, mentioned in the premise, take place around 365 AD ? Maybe the destruction took place around 200 AD or 400 AD

(loophole # 2) Were there any other major problems in 365 AD -- floods / fire ..


Answer B) strengthens by closing the loophole # 1 ... the destruction of Kurion most likely DID OCCUR around 365 AD
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Re: Excavation of the ancient city of Kourion on the island of Cyprus reve [#permalink]
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jabhatta2 wrote:
The words “known to have occurred’ gave me at-least the impression – there is no 100 % consensus whether there was an earthquake in 365 AD or not

jabhatta2 Why do you think you got that impression from those words? I thought it was because they came right after this:
Archaeologists have hypothesized that the destruction was due to a major earthquake
So you accidentally figured this was still part of the hypothesis.
But are you saying that, regardless, you'd interpret “known to have occurred" as something that may be false?
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Re: Excavation of the ancient city of Kourion on the island of Cyprus reve [#permalink]
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jabhatta2 wrote:
Conclusion - Destruction was due to a major earthquake

This is wrong in an important way, jabhatta2. The hypothesis wasn't just that the destruction was due to a major earthquake. It was a much more specific hypothesis, claiming that the destruction was due to the major earthquake of A.D. 365. Do you see the difference?

jabhatta2 wrote:
(loophole #1) maybe the earthquake did take place in 365 AD but did the destruction, mentioned in the premise, take place around 365 AD ? Maybe the destruction took place around 200 AD or 400 AD

Not maybe. The earthquake did take place in A.D. 365.
Why would the destruction have taken place around A.D. 200 or A.D. 400? Perhaps there was an unknown major earthquake at one of those times?

jabhatta2 wrote:
(loophole # 2) Were there any other major problems in 365 AD -- floods / fire ..

Why is this a loophole? We already know there was a major earthquake that year, so other major problems at that same year don't affect the argument in any way.
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Re: Excavation of the ancient city of Kourion on the island of Cyprus reve [#permalink]
avigutman wrote:
jabhatta2 wrote:
Conclusion - Destruction was due to a major earthquake

This is wrong in an important way, jabhatta2. The hypothesis wasn't just that the destruction was due to a major earthquake. It was a much more specific hypothesis, claiming that the destruction was due to the major earthquake of A.D. 365. Do you see the difference?


Yes, i see a difference
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Re: Excavation of the ancient city of Kourion on the island of Cyprus reve [#permalink]
avigutman wrote:
jabhatta2 wrote:
(loophole #1) maybe the earthquake did take place in 365 AD but did the destruction, mentioned in the premise, take place around 365 AD ? Maybe the destruction took place around 200 AD or 400 AD

Not maybe. The earthquake did take place in A.D. 365.
Why would the destruction have taken place around A.D. 200 or A.D. 400? Perhaps there was an unknown major earthquake at one of those times?


I thought the yellow was a loophole BECAUSE if there was the following option F / option F1 - option F and F1 would stregnthen / weaken the hypothesis.

(option F) new evidence suggests that the destruction of kurion DID OCCUR in 365 AD

This 'strengthens' the hypothesis.

(option F1) new evidence suggests that the destruction of kurion took place around 200 AD (not 365 AD)

This 'weakens' the hypothesis - If option F1 was present - i would select option F1 as a weakener because this prooves that the earthquake of 365 AD specifically could not have caused the destruction of kurion

Originally posted by jabhatta2 on 13 Feb 2022, 11:20.
Last edited by jabhatta2 on 13 Feb 2022, 13:34, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Excavation of the ancient city of Kourion on the island of Cyprus reve [#permalink]
avigutman wrote:
jabhatta2 wrote:
(loophole # 2) Were there any other major problems in 365 AD -- floods / fire ..

Why is this a loophole? We already know there was a major earthquake that year,so other major problems at that same year don't affect the argument in any way.



Same thing on the yellow highlight here. I thought the following option G / option G1 would be a strengthener / weakener


(option G) new evidence suggests that a flood DID NOT OCCUR in 365 AD.

I thought Option G is also a strengthener for the hypoethesis because it shows the earthquake of 365 AD more likely was the cause of the destruction (because another factor could not have caused the destruction)

(option G1) new evidence suggests that a flood ALSO occured in 365 AD.

This 'weakens' the hypothesis

If option G1 was present - i would select option G1 as a weakener because maybe the flood (not the earthquake) caused the destruction of kurion

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Re: Excavation of the ancient city of Kourion on the island of Cyprus reve [#permalink]
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jabhatta2 wrote:
avigutman wrote:
jabhatta2 wrote:
(loophole #1) maybe the earthquake did take place in 365 AD but did the destruction, mentioned in the premise, take place around 365 AD ? Maybe the destruction took place around 200 AD or 400 AD

Not maybe. The earthquake did take place in A.D. 365.
Why would the destruction have taken place around A.D. 200 or A.D. 400? Perhaps there was an unknown major earthquake at one of those times?


I thought the yellow was a loophole BECAUSE if there was the following option F / option F1 - option F and F1 would stregnthen / weaken the hypothesis.

(option F) new evidence suggests that the destruction of kurion DID OCCUR in 365 AD

This 'strengthens' the hypothesis.

(option F1) new evidence suggests that the destruction of kurion took place around 200 AD (not 365 AD)

This 'weakens' the hypothesis - If option F1 was present - i would select option F1 as a weakener because this prooves that the earthquake of 365 AD specifically could not have caused the destruction of kurion


Yes, jabhatta2, these are excellent.
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Re: Excavation of the ancient city of Kourion on the island of Cyprus reve [#permalink]
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jabhatta2 wrote:
avigutman wrote:
jabhatta2 wrote:
(loophole # 2) Were there any other major problems in 365 AD -- floods / fire ..

Why is this a loophole? We already know there was a major earthquake that year,so other major problems at that same year don't affect the argument in any way.



Same thing on the yellow highlight here. I thought the following option G / option G1 would be a strengthener / weakener


(option G) new evidence suggests that a flood DID NOT OCCUR in 365 AD.

I thought Option G is also a strengthener for the hypoethesis because it shows the earthquake of 365 AD more likely was the cause of the destruction (because another factor could not have caused the destruction)

(option G1) new evidence suggests that a flood ALSO occured in 365 AD.

This 'weakens' the hypothesis

If option G1 was present - i would select option G1 as a weakener because maybe the flood (not the earthquake) caused the destruction of kurion



These are a bit suspect, jabhatta2. The only thing special about the year A.D. 365 is the major earthquake known to have occurred that year.
Does option G strengthen the hypothesis? I'd be more inclined to agree if we knew for a fact that A.D. 365 indeed was the year of the destruction, and we weren't as confident about what caused the destruction.
But, looking at the original argument, it appears to be the other way around: the archaeologists have good reason to believe that the cause was an earthquake, and the thing they're surmising is which earthquake was the culprit.
So, the takeaway is that it's important to understand the differing levels of confidence in the different parts of an argument. Seems like an extension of your original misunderstanding.
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Re: Excavation of the ancient city of Kourion on the island of Cyprus reve [#permalink]
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Thanks avigutman - below yellow highlight in yellow helped clarify the DIFFERENCE in the arguments. The two arguments are a bit different.


avigutman wrote:
Does option G strengthen the hypothesis? I'd be more inclined to agree if we knew for a fact that A.D. 365 indeed was the year of the destruction, and we weren't as confident about what caused the destruction.
But, looking at the original argument, it appears to be the other way around:
the archaeologists have good reason to believe that the cause was an earthquake, and the thing they're surmising is which earthquake was the culprit.
So, the takeaway is that it's important to understand the differing levels of confidence in the different parts of an argument. Seems like an extension of your original misunderstanding.



Attached sceenshot are the 2 arguments - side by side - Argument # 1 vs Argument # 2

I believe the question is argument # 2 whereas I thought it was argument structure # 1

In argument structure # 1 - option C (bullet 3 in the screenshot) would be a contender for a strengthener i think

in Argument structure # 2 - option C (bullet 3 in the screenshot) would be pointless
Attachments

strengthner 3.JPG
strengthner 3.JPG [ 125.83 KiB | Viewed 1345 times ]

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Re: Excavation of the ancient city of Kourion on the island of Cyprus reve [#permalink]
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Very nicely done, jabhatta2. The only thing I would push back on in this:
jabhatta2 wrote:
Fact: Kourion was destroyed in A.D. 365
Conclusion: Kourion was destroyed by an earthquake
Strengthener: No coins minted after A.D. 365 were found in Kourion, but coins minted before that year were found in abundance.


Why do you think this strengthens, jabhatta2?
We already knew that Kourion was destroyed in A.D. 365, so the information about coins makes sense. how does it support the conclusion that an earthquake was what destroyed Kourion?
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