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Re: The news on Lehman [#permalink]
The way I see it, it comes down to :
1. Greed
2. Financial instruments so complex that no one has a clue how far the sb-prime contagion has spread
3. (Paraphrasing Michael Lewis, Bloomberg): Wall street CEOs/leaders do not have no clue about what their traders do because it is too complex even for their understading; Citibanks Rubin did not know what liquidity puts were! They ride along becuase they do not want to lose their highest earners and also because everyone else seems to be doing it
4. Did I say greed? ;)

Regarding regulation:
It always seems to be the case of coming up with lock after the horse has already bolted the barn..only for the horse to find a new way out in the future.

-Stoic
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Re: The news on Lehman [#permalink]
pelihu wrote:
What nobody (and I mean NOBODY) could foresee was how widely the damage would spread. Markets seized up last summer, and by last fall (that's fall 2007), many people believed the the worst was over.


Apparently, you aren't familiar with Jim Sinclair nor Peter Schiff.

They have predicted nearly everything that has come to pass since at least 3 years ago.
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Re: The news on Lehman [#permalink]
Was it Buffett or Soros who called derivatives the financial "weapons of mass destruction" ages ago?

trader1 wrote:
pelihu wrote:
What nobody (and I mean NOBODY) could foresee was how widely the damage would spread. Markets seized up last summer, and by last fall (that's fall 2007), many people believed the the worst was over.


Apparently, you aren't familiar with Jim Sinclair nor Peter Schiff.

They have predicted nearly everything that has come to pass since at least 3 years ago.
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Re: The news on Lehman [#permalink]
bsd_lover wrote:
Was it Buffett or Soros who called derivatives the financial "weapons of mass destruction" ages ago?

trader1 wrote:
pelihu wrote:
What nobody (and I mean NOBODY) could foresee was how widely the damage would spread. Markets seized up last summer, and by last fall (that's fall 2007), many people believed the the worst was over.


Apparently, you aren't familiar with Jim Sinclair nor Peter Schiff.

They have predicted nearly everything that has come to pass since at least 3 years ago.


Buffett
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Re: The news on Lehman [#permalink]
"What nobody (and I mean NOBODY) could foresee was how widely the damage would spread."

I think that is the whole point. The market was filled with a lot of liquidity that wasn't really there due to hundreds of billions of dollars of mortgage backed securities that banks knew were garbage but kept moving because they were making money now. Once that liquidity was exposed and evaporated all of the other risky securities that were dependent come into question and along with high fuel prices now everything is down the drain.

If Lehman new it would get this bad would they have acted differently, yes. They gambled and lost. But some things you shouldn't be able to gamble with.

I could start smoking weed and never foresee that it would leave to me a doped out fiend. I know it's wrong but I'll just have fun with all my other pothead friends who seem to function OK. But smoking week could lead to popping pills which could lead to doing coke which leads to doing crack and before you know it I'm drugged out Dirk Diggler style in a truck with a man......never mind. And all the while my mothers on TV saying she never could have foreseen that this would happen.

All the more reason to regulate and restrict the behavior.

"Regulation is very much a reactionary tool, generally over-reactionary"

I agree. I'm not simply calling for more regulation, I'm calling for smarter regulation. Let's simplify SOX so were not at a disadvantaged with foreign firms.

"Meridith Whitney was just on CNBC saying that in her wildest dreams she didn't imagine that the problems in 2007 would lead to what we've seen in recent months - and her views on the market are some of the most influential around these days."

She also said that she didn't know "How we get out of this without government intervention". So the government can't regulate an industry but they can bail them out. If your business is so vital to our economy that if you fail the government needs to step in then the government needs to lay down some ground rules to protect their (our) interest.

Heck Mudd and Syron were not only making ridiculous amounts of money at Freddie and Fannie but were also expecting $24 million on the way out the door! These CEO's get paid millions of dollars because they argue that wealth is created from their decisions. If so how can anyone in any of these companies justify their salaries for the past couple of years. I make millions from bad decisions and when the business fails I walk away or the government bails me out? Sign me up! But I digress.
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Re: The news on Lehman [#permalink]
I remember this being posted earlier but here is my "layman's" view of the situation.

https://docs.google.com/TeamPresent?doci ... true&pli=1
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Re: The news on Lehman [#permalink]
"I'm calling for smarter regulation." - Of course we are talking about the government here, so smart regulation really can't exist. I would argue that it is impossible for outside stakeholders to properly govern an investment bank. Corporate governance simply can't exist when even the CEO doesn't understand his business. The financial products are just too complex for any normal investor to understand.

In place of a traditional corporate structure, I would say it might be prudent to go back to the private partnership-ownership framework that was common for most of these firms up until the last two decades. It really wasn't until these companies went public and gained access to huge amounts of capital that we began to have tremendous problems with the banks. Yes, Drexel went bust in 1990, but that had as much to do with the criminal problems as it did with the firm itself (I personally think they may have been able to ride out the junk bond storm). When firms began prop trading, they essentially went beyond the scope of current corporate governance standards and it became almost impossible to monitor these firms. I would argue that private equity and hedge funds are better self-regulators than the investment banks are now. The owners of these firms show better restraint and have a better handle on their business essentially doing the same thing as I-Banks. While hedge funds and PE firms do go bust, you really don't hear about them causing the 'moral hazard' the way you did with Bear Stearns. And don't bring up Long-Term because was as much the major banks fault as it was LTCM's. While not all financial firms show great restraint, either do businesses in any other industry.
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Re: The news on Lehman [#permalink]
For those of you that think forecasting this was horseballooney, I send you to:

https://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/ar ... ,JPM,BAC,C

Note the date. July 22.

BTW, you should all be reading Roubini.
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Re: The news on Lehman [#permalink]
rhyme wrote:
For those of you that think forecasting this was horseballooney, I send you to:

https://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/ar ... ,JPM,BAC,C

Note the date. July 22.

BTW, you should all be reading Roubini.


Very interesting article, thanks for posting!
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Re: The news on Lehman [#permalink]
gixxer1000 wrote:
I remember this being posted earlier but here is my "layman's" view of the situation.

https://docs.google.com/TeamPresent?doci ... true&pli=1


Famous, hilarious and so true! :-D
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Re: The news on Lehman [#permalink]
Today during a part of our orientation, we had a Finance professor explaining some courses of the curriculum, he started saying:
"As you may notice, we have 2 major sub-concentration, one is for those who want to go to Investment, Portfolio and Risk management - also called sometimes as Capital Markets. The second I might as well not spend your time talking about as there are no jobs available, people call this sub-concentration Corporate Finance, and those who studied it used to be called Investment-Bankers." :shock:

Then, he said out loud: "For those who want to change careers to IB it's going to be tough, and my advise is not to do so, but as everybody says here: You know You best." :shock: :shock: :shock:

I didn't know if I was supposed to laugh or cry. But it's true, it's going to be HARD, extremely HARD for those seeking banking.
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Re: The news on Lehman [#permalink]
kwam wrote:
I didn't know if I was supposed to laugh or cry. But it's true, it's going to be HARD, extremely HARD for those seeking banking.


For how long do you guys think? Forget it until class of 2011, 2012, 2015...? Kwam, you're class of 2010 or 2009?
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Re: The news on Lehman [#permalink]
rhyme wrote:
For those of you that think forecasting this was horseballooney, I send you to:

https://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/ar ... ,JPM,BAC,C

Note the date. July 22.

BTW, you should all be reading Roubini.


Jim Sinclair from July 2007:

Derivatives Dirty Little Secrets Revealed
https://www.jsmineset.com/ARhome.asp?VAf ... nks&UArts=

August 2007:

The Big Kahuna: OTC Derivatives Begin Full Blown Meltdown
https://www.jsmineset.com/ARhome.asp?VAf ... nks&UArts=

Next Derivative To Implode Has Close Call Last Week
https://www.jsmineset.com/ARhome.asp?VAf ... nks&UArts=

September 2007:

Prayers Are All That Keep The OTC Firestorm From Exploding Into The Limelight
https://www.jsmineset.com/ARhome.asp?VAf ... nks&UArts=

October 2007:

A US Recession Is Undeniable
https://www.jsmineset.com/ARhome.asp?VAf ... nks&UArts=

This Is It!
https://www.jsmineset.com/ARhome.asp?VAf ... nks&UArts=
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Re: The news on Lehman [#permalink]
I am with Pelihu here, by the beginning of 2008 with the hige write-offs everybody thought the worst was.

Roubini has a point, but the article was out on July 22, 2008, not so much time ago.

On calling for more regulation, I think Pelihu's views are mirrored by the (always excellent) Tyler Cowen in yesterday's NYT here.

We take a look to the powerhouses (they were incredibly profiltable) of the '80s, many of them do not exist anymore (Solomon, Drexel, Dean Witter to name a few). Wall Street has not starved in the meantime, has it?

I don't think the outlook for class of '11 looks bleak in IB. It might take a little more balls, a little more research as the market will be more fragmented, a little more entrepreneurial spirit. That would probably only differentiate the payoff between smart people and herd people, and I think many of the people here are on the good side.
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Re: The news on Lehman [#permalink]
Paradosso wrote:
I am with Pelihu here, by the beginning of 2008 with the hige write-offs everybody thought the worst was.

Roubini has a point, but the article was out on July 22, 2008, not so much time ago.



That's BS. You need to re-analyze your sources of financial market information.

If you've been reading people like Sinclair and Schiff, just to name a few, you could have seen this all coming when the first tremors shook the financial system in the form of the sub-prime fallout. Even Prof. Stiglitz of CBS has been reiterating how deep this financial crisis could get, and he certainly wasn't declaring the worst was behind us.
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Re: The news on Lehman [#permalink]
trader,

while I have not read Sinclair or Schiff (I listened to the pianist, though) and I cannot comment on them, I believe that you can always find someone who saw it all in advance, given that everybody has a say these days.

Yet it is safe to say that the consensus, after the write-offs (especially UBS's) and major houses losing 25-50% of their value, was that the market was to stabilize.

Besides, yesterday the Dow lost much less that was expected, considering $600B to be unwinded by Lehman. I hear about '31 a lot, but it seems to me this does not even come close to 10/19/87.
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Re: The news on Lehman [#permalink]
Schiff is known as Dr. Doom. He predicts we will always be in recession. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
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Re: The news on Lehman [#permalink]
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