gixxer1000 wrote:
pelihu wrote:
The assertion that this (or any other) crisis or shock was foreseeable is complete and utter horseshit. There are two sides to every trade, and whatever level a market is at at any given point is the fair value based on available information. There's smart money all over the street, and the Tuesday Morning Quarterbacking of assigning blame in hindsight is just plain crap. If people knew trouble was coming they wouldn't have thrown good money and their firms' good names in the pile.
Let's not forget that while the big banks are the poster children of the problem, main street America was all too happy to buy homes on easy credit, max out home equity loans and lines of credit to support their own lifestyles. Don't forget, the biggest driver of the economy, through the tech boom and the LBO boom has been personal spending. Everyday people. The banks are easy targets, but people shouldn't complain that their own wealth is being used to back-stop the banks; a key reason they have personal wealth is that they rode the wave all the way up.
Calling for more regulation? Gonna have to put forth a better argument than that.
While I'm not an advocate of arm chair quaterbacking or assigning blame just for the sake of it, I don't think assertion that some of the problems were having were forseeable is horseshit. And yes, main street America was happy to but homes on credit and then refinance them because they being told the value of their houses were appreciating by 20% a year.
I remember taking an appraisal class a couple years back and my instructor was telling me how you couldn't do an appraisal to early because if you spent a couple of months negotiating and closing the home price could have appreciated 3-4% in that time frame. In most cases were talking about an extra $10-12,000 in a matter of months. Houses were going up 12% a year easily.
I can't think of any job where your salary increases 12% year over year. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that eventually were going to need a pretty big correction. So while $4/gal gas wasn't foreseeable, a correction of 20% house price gains year over year was. I think you're giving the average Joe far to much credit. If banks let them, most people would always take out more credit than they can afford. The person lending the money should be more responsible than the person receiving it. Especially considering this is not what the average Joe does for a living. An "expert" tells them this is what their house is worth today and it's going up in the near future and a bank is willing to lend them the money without throughly checking the financial status. Worse case scenario for the borrower is that they ruin their credit, worse case scenario for a lender is that they lose their lively hood.
So why would people who saw this coming still throw "good money and their firms' good names in the pile". I can give you a one word answer. Greed. Plenty of people did deals that they knew were not in the best long term interest of their firm. But it made them good money now, and they weren't sure when it would come back to bite them. Or if it would ever come back to bite them at all. After all not everyone at a bank is looking out for the strategic long term vision of the company. If they have a good 4 year run and make money who cares if someone else gets left holding the bag.
I think it's obvious that without the proper regulation most people will push the limits until it breaks. Now what amount of regulation is "proper", I don't know. But I think we can all agree that giving out hundreds of thousands of dollars for mortgages with out any down payment and little to no checking of their financial situation isn't it.
While I usually agree with Pelihu - who is probably my favourite poster - I'm 100% with Gixxer here.
When you mention that whatever level a market is at at any given point is the fair value based on available information, now we both know that it is not true (even though markets are very often pretty efficient). If we have learned anything from the latest financial meltdowns, it's that markets sometimes go crazy, just because people are convinced that whatever the price they will buy something, there will always be somebody to buy it for more (the famous Castle-in-the-Air Theory). Just look at the internet bubble.
I mean, come on: who in his right state of mind could think that the expected yearly price increases of houses were sustainable? It was a classic speculative bubble, it's nothing new: it happened centuries ago with the tulips in Holland, it happens today again in another form. Smart people have fallen for this trap before, and smart people will still continue to fall for this trap. And as usual, all this was driven by greed - high bonuses combined with no major negative consequences (getting fired is the worst that could happen, a small risk in comparison with the massive bonuses one could earn).
Everyday people bought houses because they weren't able to read the fine print: now they have to surrender their houses. Again, this was driven by greed, fueled by so-called "experts" as Gixxer puts it so well.
Finally, concerning regulation, I honestly don't see how we can avoid it: a normal company is allowed to take massive risks, only to go bankrupt later on. It's the shareholders' problem (I won't even talk about employees made redundant). However, when companies have the potential to put in peril the whole economy by going bankrupt, they shouldn't be allowed to do whatever they want. That's why we have the Basel convention for example.
I really don't see how we can avoid more regulation in this case. The banks have simply been too greedy because they could do whatever they wanted; this cannot go on IMO.