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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced [#permalink]
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GMATNinja wrote:
This one is a cruel classic that forces you to think really, really carefully about the connection between verb tenses and the intended meaning of the sentence. We covered this one at the end of our webinar on GMAT verb tenses, so head over there if you prefer your explanations in video form.

Quote:
(A) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump

(A) is awfully tempting. The agreement happened in the past (1972), so it’s reasonable enough to use “reduced” here.

But what about the use of past perfect tense (“had been allowed to dump”)? Whenever you see the past perfect tense, it has to describe an action that is completed in the past, but BEFORE some other “time marker” in the past – usually another action in simple past tense. And we do have another action in simple past here: “reduced the amount of phosphates.” Superficially, this looks good.

But those verb tenses don’t actually make sense! Literally, (A) is saying that the 1972 agreement “reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump” – meaning that the 1972 agreement changed the amount that municipalities had been allowed to dump BEFORE the agreement went into place. And that makes no sense: how could a 1972 agreement reach even further into the past to change municipalities' behavior?

It’s subtle. And cruel and difficult. And if you wanted to be conservative on your first pass through the answer choices, you certainly could hang onto (A). But as you’ll see in a moment, we definitely have a better option.

Quote:
(B) reduced the phosphate amount that municipalities had been dumping

(B) is an even worse version of (A). How can the 1972 agreement reach back into the even-more-distant past to change the amount that “municipalities had been dumping”? Plus, there’s no good reason to use the progressive tense here, and the phrase “phosphate amount” strikes me as being awfully weird.

But the logic of the sequence of actions is the real problem, just as it is in (A). So (B) is out, too.

Quote:
(C) reduces the phosphate amount municipalities have been allowed to dump

There are all sorts of little problems with this one. First, I don’t think it’s ideal to say that the 1972 agreement “reduces” the phosphate amount. The agreement reduced that amount when it took effect in the past – so it’s hard to argue that the present tense would work here.

Second, the phrase “phosphate amount” still strikes me as weird. I’m not certain that it’s 100% wrong, and I wouldn’t eliminate (C) solely because of it. But “the amount of phosphates” is clearly better.

Finally, I don’t understand why we would use the present perfect “have been allowed to dump” in this sentence, particularly since it’s accompanied by the present tense “reduces.” “Have been allowed” suggests that the action started in the past and continues in the present. So the sentence is literally saying that municipalities “have been allowed” to dump a certain amount beginning in the past, but only because of a 1972 agreement… which “reduces” that amount only in the present? That doesn’t make sense.

So (C) is out.

Quote:
(D) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities are allowed to dump

I know: this one doesn’t sound great. Why are we mixing the past tense with the present tense in this particular case? Superficially, it just doesn’t seem right.

But keep in mind that the simple present tense in English just describes a general characteristic. If we say “Mike surfs like a champion”, that doesn’t necessarily mean that Mike is surfing right now; it just means that he has the general characteristic of surfing like a champion.

So in this case, “the amount of phosphates that municipalities are allowed to dump” is completely fine: it’s a general statement of how much the municipalities can dump. And back in the past – specifically in 1972 – the agreement reduced that amount to its current levels. So the past tense “reduced” makes sense, and so does the present tense “are allowed.”

It might make us squirm a bit, but we have no reason to eliminate (D).

Quote:
(E) reduces the amount of phosphates allowed for dumping by municipalities

Again, “reduces” doesn’t make a lot of sense here, for the same reasons as we mentioned in answer choice (C). Plus, what the heck is going on with the phrase “allowed for dumping by municipalities”? This is a weird passive construction, and it’s far less clear than “municipalities are allowed to dump.”

So (E) is out, and (D) is the best we can do.

Hi GMATNinja,

If we are using a simple past here, i.e. "A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced the amount of phosphates" doesn't it mean that the agreement is no longer true/valid now? On the same logic, as the agreement is a fact or still applicable today, isn't simple present reduces a better choice
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krishnabalu wrote:
Hi GMATNinja,

If we are using a simple past here, i.e. "A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced the amount of phosphates" doesn't it mean that the agreement is no longer true/valid now? On the same logic, as the agreement is a fact or still applicable today, isn't simple present reduces a better choice

To be honest, I think this is a little bit of a grey area, but I think that the past tense is completely fine here.

Why? Well, the act of reducing the legal amount of phosphates was completed in the past when the agreement was made. Here, have another example:

    "The treaty ended the war 10 years ago." - Does the use of simple past imply that the treaty is no longer valid? No. But it would be weird to say that a treaty signed in the past ends the war.

To be fair, I don't think that it would be WRONG to use present tense in the original question. Present tense in English indicates a general characteristic, so it wouldn't be crazy to say that "A 1972 agreement reduces the amount of phosphates..." But it's a bit clearer and better to say that the 1972 agreement reduced the legal limits in the past, when the agreement was signed.

I hope that helps!
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MartyTargetTestPrep wrote:
The use of tenses in choice (A) results in the version's conveying a meaning that is logically impossible.

The use of the past perfect "had been allowed" and the simple past "reduced" indicates that "had been allowed to dump" occurred BEFORE "reduced the amount of phosphates."

So, the version created via the use of (A) conveys the impossible to be true meaning that the agreement reduced the amount of phosphates that had ALREADY been dumped.

Dear MartyTargetTestPrep
Thank you for your response.
Choice A. : A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump into the Great Lakes.

However, the reason why I think choice A. is logical is that the timeline is as follows:
The amount that they had been allowed to dump (X) -> reduced -> The amount Y (any amount less than X)

Why is the above timeline illogical?
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lindseym
The trick here is that a 1972 agreement could never change what had been allowed, because "had been" always refers to something that precedes our past tense action. We can say that a law changed what was allowed (at that time) or what is allowed, if the law is the same today. But it could never change what had been allowed before it was passed.
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Mayank221133 wrote:
Ok, makes sense. So, can we conclude safely that while using past perfect tense the entire event or the effect of that event no longer exist?

While there are very few blanket statements that are applicable on GMAT, I would say that this would largely be true in most cases.
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[quote="souvik101990"]A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump into the Great Lakes.


(A) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump

(B) reduced the phosphate amount that municipalities had been dumping

(C) reduces the phosphate amount municipalities have been allowed to dump

(D) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities are allowed to dump

(E) reduces the amount of phosphates allowed for dumping by municipalities

of course, choice D is best. but I want to say my idea on choice D.
in the past, the agreement reduced the present amount allowed to dump. this is absurd.

at present, the amount allowed to dump is 50kg. and the agreement in the past will reduce this amount to 40kg. absurd.
the present amount is 50. the past amount is 60 and this amount was reduced to 50. so, everything happened in the past and "are allowed" should be changed into " were allowed".

the past agreement reduced the amount that WERE allowed . this is more logical.

Originally posted by thangvietnam on 29 Aug 2021, 02:37.
Last edited by thangvietnam on 30 Aug 2021, 01:44, edited 1 time in total.
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thangvietnam

Be careful--usually, when an official answer seems absurd, that means we've misinterpreted it. Answer choice D doesn't require any weird time travel paradoxes. All it means is that what happened in the past created a change, and that change is still in effect today. Using your terms, that would mean that before 1972, the limit was 50 kg, but ever since then (including today), the limit is 40 kg. Similarly, I could say "This book changed the way I see cooking" or "The pandemic changed the way our classes are taught."
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Well0909 wrote:
Hi GMATNinja

Why can we use amount to describe countable noun?
I thought "amount" is used to describe only uncountable noun?

Could you please kindly help to explain or take other official examples to verify the concept?
Thank you so much!

Here's another official example that uses "amount" in a similar way:

Quote:
Some scientists have been critical of the laboratory tests conducted by the Federal Drug Administration on the grounds that the amounts of suspected carcinogens fed to animals far exceed those that humans could consume.


Notice that it wouldn't make sense to talk about a number of carcinogens in this context. We're not worried about whether animals are subjected to 6 or 7 different types of carcinogens. Rather, we're talking about a measurement, or amount of the carcinogens they're exposed to.

Same deal in this question. It's not like there are 11 different phosphates in the Great Lakes and the agreement hopes to reduce that number to 9 phosphates. It's far more logical to assume we're talking about a measurement, so again, we want "amount."

The takeaway: if we're talking about a measurement, we use "less" or "amount." If we're talking about an integer value of discrete elements, we use "fewer" or "number."

I hope that clears things up!
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Navaneethcs wrote:
I have a question on a slightly different topic. If we look at this question here

As per the solution to the above question,

'phosphate amount that' - here "that" modifies the amount (correct!)

But,
'amount of phosphates that' - here "that" modifies phosphates. (wrong)

Hence I crossed out A,D,E, and chose B. Please can someone throw some light on this?

GMATNinja ExpertsGlobal5 egmat VeritasPrepRon EducationAisle

Don't bother about the "the reduction..." question. "That" has very versatile usage and can modify preceding noun / noun phrase or even faraway noun. Almost all question on GMAT will follow this rule.


If you really wanna split hair on this one, then here you go.

Think of these sentences:

ST1: The fourth car from left that is red in color is mine.

Vs.

ST2: The fourth car that is red in color from left is mine.

Here there's a subtle difference but a big meaning ambiguity.

In st1: there could be 10 cars of different color, each positioned from 1-10. Now let's say red cars occupy even position viz 2 4 6 8 10. As per st1, the red color would be the car standing at position 8. Think about it and you will get the real essence about restrictive nature of that

In St2: as per this sentence, the car positioned at no. 4 will be the one. Apart from positioning difference, this car will be painted in red from left and could be yellow, black, limegreen , etc from right side."That" becomes much more restrictive for positioning In St2 compared with St1.

Try to see the tagged question from this angle.Option B has no grammatical mistake, it's as same as option E, except the punch / thrust of restrictiveness by the placement of that makes it a better choice. This question could be an example of rhetorical questions that come in GMAT.

Again I am not sure GMAT will ever ask ask to spot such nuances. Doesn't seem to be an offical question ?

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I was stuck between options A & D, but eventually chose A because the "are" in option D made it a bit wierd for me. Instead of "are", I expected "were".
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced [#permalink]
Hi everyone,

How can "the amount of phosphates" be correct?

"Phosphates" is a plural count noun. Thus, we can not use "the amount" here!

Could someone help me explain? Thanks in advance!
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Hi tinyturtle,

Per the context of the sentence, we know that the municipalities were allowed to dump a certain amount of phosphate in the Great Lakes. This was a fixed amount, say 200 pounds per month. This is a specific amount. Hence, use of singular “amount” is absolutely correct here.

Hope this helps. :)
Thanks.
Shraddha
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced [#permalink]
Hi Shraddha,

I got 2 sentences from https://magoosh.com/gmat/2012/gmat-gramm ... -vs-fewer/

1. This amount of mashed potatoes should be enough for dinner.

2. This number of baked potatoes should be enough for dinner.

I learned a rule that "Amount" is used for un-countable noun. I donn't understand the first sentence. Could you help explain?

Thanks,
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carcass wrote:
Thi sis a bit tricky question because someone could think that the agreement was done in 72 but curtail something until NOW and from this the right tense is the present.

But the logic is that: before 72 the amout was 100 for instance, after 72 instead was 50 and NOW what is permitted is that 50.

We do not know if this scenario unfolds untill now or in the future or it stops in 2005, for instance.

As such, the most important thing is to figure out the second scenario; that is: the agreement reduced the amount in the past and the countries was permitted to dump this amount

So C and E are out

We need the amount of X so B is out

A and D. A had allowed is wrong doesnt have any sense, is quite clear

So D remains


This kind of question is tricky, but the answer is always the same. When something occured in the past that made a change, the correct verb tense will always be in the present. The change was made in terms of what we are allowed to now, not in terms of what was done then. There are literally dozens of pages on this question from the past 10 years, but all questions of this type need to have a verb tense in the present. The timeline just doesn't work logically (think Terminator or MiB3) if you keep it this way. To preserve the timeline logic, the verb must be in the present.

Hope this helps!
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced [#permalink]
egmat wrote:
Hi All,
A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced the amount of phosphate that municipalities had been allowed to dump into the Great Lakes.



The intended meaning of the sentence is that till 1972, municipalities were allowed to dump a certain amount of phosphate into the Great Lakes. However, a 1972 agreement between Canada and the US reduced this amount.



The only error in this sentence is the use of past perfect tense “had been allowed”. Let us understand how. Per the sentence, the agreement reduced the amount that municipalities were allowed to dump. Now in this sentence, the verb tense - past perfect tense - had been allowed - is incorrect because it non-sensically implies that municipalities were allowed to dump a certain amount sometime in the past - (they are no longer allowed to dump now, since the action is already completed) and then the next event in the past happened - the agreement reduced this amount. It is not possible to reduce an amount for something that has already happened (had been allowed).

Process of Elimination

Choice A: Incorrect for the reason discussed above.

Choice B: reduced the phosphate amount that municipalities had been dumping. Incorrect. Per this choice the agreement itself did the action of "reduce". This cannot be true because the agreement cannot reduce the amount of phosphates dumped by municipalities. The agreement can only provide limits for this amount. The municipalities have to then take appropriate actions to reduce their emissions to meet the new allowable limits. Removal of “allow” distorts the meaning of the sentence. Also, this choice has the same verb tense issue as in choice A.

Choice C: reduces the phosphate amount municipalities have been allowed to dump. Incorrect. Since agreement took place in 1972, use of present tense “reduces” is incorrect. Also, this sentence states a general fact about the amount of phosphate the municipalities are allowed to dump. This must be stated in the simple present tense. Use of present perfect tense “have been allowed” to state a general fact is not correct.

Choice D: reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities are allowed to dump. Correct. This choice conveys the intended meaning. In general, the municipalities are allowed to dump a certain amount of phosphate. However, an agreement between Canada and the US reduced that amount in 1972.

Choice E: reduces the amount of phosphates allowed for dumping by municipalities. Incorrect. This choice has the same verb tense error as in choice C. Use of “for” after “allowed” is unidiomatic.



1. Understand the intended meaning of the sentence.
2. Past perfect tense denotes that the action is already over.
3. Be careful of the choices that remove certain words present in the original choice. Such removals may change the meaning of the sentence.

Hope this helps.
Thanks.
Shraddha


Hi Shraddha,
I've two possible explanations for this sentence so,please let me know whether any one of these is correct, if at all ?

1.Here, if we say that per the sentence and the meaning it's clear that 'till 1972 municipalities were allowed to dump a certain amount of phosphate into the Great Lakes but a 1972 agreement reduced this amount'. Now isn't it evident that the phrase "A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced the amount" provides a time frame that clearly indicates that dumping was there before this agreement in 1972. So no need to use past perfect 'had been allowed to dump' explicitly.

2. 'allowed to dump' and 'reduced this amount' are NOT really related - dumping can occur even if there is no REDUCTION in 1972. So, two unrelated events in the past - no need to use past perfect.

Please let me know your thoughts.
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced [#permalink]
rahul wrote:
A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump into the Great Lakes.

(A) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump
(B) reduced the phosphate amount that municipalities had been dumping
(C) reduces the phosphate amount municipalities have been allowed to dump
(D) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities are allowed to dump
(E) reduces the amount of phosphates allowed for dumping by municipalities


Pl review my analysis

Meaning

Agreement to reduce the amt of phosphate that was allowed to be dumped

POE

1) A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United
States reduced the amount of phosphates
2) that municipalities had been allowed to dump into the
Great Lakes.

SV correct
Agreement...reduced
municipalities...had been allowed

Modifier
into the Great Lakes...is correctly placed

Meaning Correct

Parallelism
B/w C and the US...correct

Pronoun-

Idiom
allowed to...correct

Other-

Verb

Here though even after the agreement municipalities will dump the waste (of reduced amt) the sequence is

Municipalities allowed to dump waste --->Agreement to reduce waste----> Municipalities allowed to dump less waste

POE A correct

As per the sequence it is correct to state that municipalities had been allowed, because agreement happened later

So why is D correct here?
Also, what is the difference in amt of phosphate and phosphate amount
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Re: A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced [#permalink]
rahul wrote:
A 1972 agreement between Canada and the United States reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump into the Great Lakes.

(A) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities had been allowed to dump
(B) reduced the phosphate amount that municipalities had been dumping
(C) reduces the phosphate amount municipalities have been allowed to dump
(D) reduced the amount of phosphates that municipalities are allowed to dump
(E) reduces the amount of phosphates allowed for dumping by municipalities


Analysis Done :-

1. E option is NG as allowed for is unidiomatic.
2.Options B C are NG as amount of phosphate = phosphate's anount and not phosphate amount.
Now I can not decide between A and D.

I chose A as my understanding of the OS is : Prior to agreement municipalities dumped hence past pefect tense is Ok.

Experts pl help

1.
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