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Does the GMAT discriminate non-english speakers?

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Re: Does the GMAT discriminate non-english speakers? [#permalink] New post   18 Jun 2010, 02:28
Pkit wrote:
Disclosure: It is a not a complaint or grievance at all.
I just would like to share a couple of my thoughts and ideas here and would like to hear/(read) yours.
Excuse me, if I somehow have desriminated someone, this was not my intention.

I think that GMAT somehow may discriminate those people, whose english is not native language. :roll: :?:
Let me explain:
I believe that, if an indian, chinese or russian would take the gmat in his/her native language, results would be different and probably much better because of language barrier.
Of course I agree that those who want to pursue an MBA degree must know english very well, BUT posessing english very well does mean to be a native speaker. Occasionally, few unknown words may play crucial role.

For example, sometimes (I am feeling so pissed off in such situations), when reading a RC (often biology or history passages) or a CR question, I lose my concentration, self-confidence and understanding, because I did not undersand just a couple of words.
Often just because of not clear understanding of "what a hell is exactly going on here", I fail the question, not because I am not smart/intellegent, but because I did not understand the intended meaning. (once I translated in my native language 10 CR and 10 RC questions that I took wrong, about 60% of fails were due to language barrier).

Thus, non-native speakers often have such huge disbalances like Q45-50, V18-25 (total GMAT score ranging from 530 to 620) and can't improve significantly the verbal raw over a short period of time.
Another example, when reading explanations of tough SC questions, native speakers may crack SC questions just feeling/seeing awkward nuances very quickly.

Please share your ideas, thoughts or may be critics. you may award kudos, if I deserve it.


:thanks


Its like saying I want to fly the plane all over the place but I won't sit in the cockpit.
Why do you think GMAT should be made easy for you or tailored for you?
How are you going to sell your point in the boardroom if you can't prepare for this test. You are going to compete with the natives and steal their jobs(euphemistically) , at least the effort should be made to beat them in their own game.
Good things don't come easy.


Just see the top CEOs Arun Sarin , Vikram Pandit , Rajat Gupta. They have reached the top against all odds. A kite rises against the wind not with it.
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Re: Does the GMAT discriminate non-english speakers? [#permalink] New post   18 Jun 2010, 11:52
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AbhiJ wrote:

Its like saying I want to fly the plane all over the place but I won't sit in the cockpit.
Why do you think GMAT should be made easy for you or tailored for you?
How are you going to sell your point in the boardroom if you can't prepare for this test. You are going to compete with the natives and steal their jobs(euphemistically) , at least the effort should be made to beat them in their own game.
Good things don't come easy.


Just see the top CEOs Arun Sarin , Vikram Pandit , Rajat Gupta. They have reached the top against all odds. A kite rises against the wind not with it.


I like the last bit about a kite rising against the wind and not with it, that's a good motivational piece. However, to only use members of the South Asian middle and upper classes as your examples of people that have "reached the top against all odds" is unfair, when the odds are they would have studied English from an early age (and I believe in each of those cases, they did, but I could be mistaken).

I agree with the mindset of being able to surmount anything that's thrown at you, but, as a native speaker (and someone who studied the English language in college), I think dedicating as many points as the GMAT does to SC is silly, at best, for native speakers and sets non-native speakers at an unfair disadvantage. Especially when I've never received an e-mail directly from a C-level exec that wasn't riddled with capitalization/spelling/grammatical errors. You hire admins to check your copy. IMO, if you can get the point across as intended, it doesn't matter whether you remember to get rid of all your dangling participles or some other prescriptivist nonsense (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic ... n#Problems). Business in general puts far too high a premium on English grammar, the window dressing, and doesn't nearly pay enough attention to the substance of their communication. Will learning English grammar make you less likely to be judged by your peers? Sadly, yes (the ones that actually know proper grammar, that is). But will learning English grammar make you a more compelling leader and astute business mind? No, absolutely not.

I will say, however, that the CR portion is highly relevant to office work and business life and I think that's one of the parts (perhaps the only part) that the GMAT gets right.
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Re: Does the GMAT discriminate non-english speakers? [#permalink] New post   14 Jul 2010, 13:09
coaks wrote:
AbhiJ wrote:

Its like saying I want to fly the plane all over the place but I won't sit in the cockpit.
Why do you think GMAT should be made easy for you or tailored for you?
How are you going to sell your point in the boardroom if you can't prepare for this test. You are going to compete with the natives and steal their jobs(euphemistically) , at least the effort should be made to beat them in their own game.
Good things don't come easy.


Just see the top CEOs Arun Sarin , Vikram Pandit , Rajat Gupta. They have reached the top against all odds. A kite rises against the wind not with it.


I like the last bit about a kite rising against the wind and not with it, that's a good motivational piece. However, to only use members of the South Asian middle and upper classes as your examples of people that have "reached the top against all odds" is unfair, when the odds are they would have studied English from an early age (and I believe in each of those cases, they did, but I could be mistaken).

I agree with the mindset of being able to surmount anything that's thrown at you, but, as a native speaker (and someone who studied the English language in college), I think dedicating as many points as the GMAT does to SC is silly, at best, for native speakers and sets non-native speakers at an unfair disadvantage. Especially when I've never received an e-mail directly from a C-level exec that wasn't riddled with capitalization/spelling/grammatical errors. You hire admins to check your copy. IMO, if you can get the point across as intended, it doesn't matter whether you remember to get rid of all your dangling participles or some other prescriptivist nonsense (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic ... n#Problems). Business in general puts far too high a premium on English grammar, the window dressing, and doesn't nearly pay enough attention to the substance of their communication. Will learning English grammar make you less likely to be judged by your peers? Sadly, yes (the ones that actually know proper grammar, that is). But will learning English grammar make you a more compelling leader and astute business mind? No, absolutely not.

I will say, however, that the CR portion is highly relevant to office work and business life and I think that's one of the parts (perhaps the only part) that the GMAT gets right.


I think the GMAT verbal section is largely a screener for professional services recruiters (consulting and banking), where presentation trumps all else (okay, stamina in banking is above all, but you get my drift). In these professions, where you place your commas is of paramount importance. This is just a screener.

As for tests being biased... unless it's booby-trapped and it's rigged to fail you (like most hell week tests for frat pledges), it's just a test, and we'll just have to deal with it. Take this from someone who could not perform to potential on the GMAT and has learned to live with it.
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Re: Does the GMAT discriminate non-english speakers? [#permalink] New post   15 Jul 2010, 04:37
This idea that GMAT discriminates non-english speakers is flawed if we consider the whole business school admission process.

When someone apply to a MBA program, he or she will be competing against the other candidates, but only those from the SAME PEER GROUP. So if you are a French consultant or an Indian IT professional, it does not matter whether the GMAT is in English, everyone from your peer group will face the same difficulties. For instance, if you are French and your peer group averages 650, it does not matter that the Indians averages 750.

It is well known but not admitted by the admissions directors that each MBA program has "quotes": X places for the Americans, Y places for the minorities, W places for the Indians, Z places for the Europeans, etc.

Otherwise, all top MBA programs would be filled by an Indian Army ! :lol:
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Re: Does the GMAT discriminate non-english speakers? [#permalink] New post   15 Jul 2010, 05:53
to Mba Uncle:

Well the topic is has more general view, and intend to compare GMAT results of native versus non-native speakers. So if you are a native speaker, it is much comfortable for you to sit the test.
I agree that people from the same group are compared peer to peer.
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Re: Does the GMAT discriminate non-english speakers? [#permalink] New post   15 Jul 2010, 06:01
Quote:
Well the topic is has more general view, and intend to compare GMAT results of native versus non-native speakers. So if you are a native speaker, it is much comfortable for you to sit the test.
I agree that people from the same group are compared peer to peer.


I think that the GMAT serves precisely that purpose, to evaluate people from different cultural, social and economic backgrounds on a common platform. Because, let's face it, if you're applying to do an MBA from the US, you need to be extremely fluent in English. Your vocal skills aren't tested, because no one cares if you have an accent.

For people who think it's biased against non-native speakers, I think the whole assumption is flawed. Assuming that the major set of these non-native speakers come from China and India (and they do, for a large proportion), it wouldn't take the native speakers to turn right back around and say the GMAC makes it easier for the non-native speakers through the Quant portion :D (Just kidding, but I hope I got my point across)

:)
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Re: Does the GMAT discriminate non-english speakers? [#permalink] New post   Updated on: 15 Jul 2010, 08:51
whiplash2411 wrote:
Quote:
Well the topic is has more general view, and intend to compare GMAT results of native versus non-native speakers. So if you are a native speaker, it is much comfortable for you to sit the test.
I agree that people from the same group are compared peer to peer.


I think that the GMAT serves precisely that purpose, to evaluate people from different cultural, social and economic backgrounds on a common platform. Because, let's face it, if you're applying to do an MBA from the US, you need to be extremely fluent in English. Your vocal skills aren't tested, because no one cares if you have an accent.

For people who think it's biased against non-native speakers, I think the whole assumption is flawed. Assuming that the major set of these non-native speakers come from China and India (and they do, for a large proportion), it wouldn't take the native speakers to turn right back around and say the GMAC makes it easier for the non-native speakers through the Quant portion :D (Just kidding, but I hope I got my point across)

:)


I agree.

Originally posted by MBAUncle on 15 Jul 2010, 07:53.
Last edited by MBAUncle on 15 Jul 2010, 08:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Does the GMAT discriminate non-english speakers? [#permalink] New post   15 Jul 2010, 08:01
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Pkit wrote:
to Mba Uncle:

Well the topic is has more general view, and intend to compare GMAT results of native versus non-native speakers. So if you are a native speaker, it is much comfortable for you to sit the test.
I agree that people from the same group are compared peer to peer.


It seems that the Chinese are more comfortable with the GMAT than the Americans :-D :

China Mean Total Score: 599*
U.S. Mean Total Score: 533*

*Source: "Profile of GMAT Candidates 2003-2008" - GMAC
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Re: Does the GMAT discriminate non-english speakers? [#permalink] New post   15 Jul 2010, 23:11
MBAUncle wrote:
Pkit wrote:
to Mba Uncle:

Well the topic is has more general view, and intend to compare GMAT results of native versus non-native speakers. So if you are a native speaker, it is much comfortable for you to sit the test.
I agree that people from the same group are compared peer to peer.


It seems that the Chinese are more comfortable with the GMAT than the Americans :-D :

China Mean Total Score: 599*
U.S. Mean Total Score: 533*

*Source: "Profile of GMAT Candidates 2003-2008" - GMAC


This can serve as an example of misuse of statistics to draw incorrect inferences.
Chinese who give GMAT aspire to get an MBA from US or other International schools, usually top ranked ones due to the high cost based on purchasing power parity.
The average Chinese writing GMAT is more ambitious than the average American writing GMAT. You will usually find the number of Chinese is in much small number in school beyond the Top 20 and almost negligible in schools ranked lower than 40. In contrast Americans attend all the business schools ranking even 100+.
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Re: Does the GMAT discriminate non-english speakers? [#permalink] New post   16 Jul 2010, 05:47
AbhiJ wrote:
MBAUncle wrote:
Pkit wrote:
to Mba Uncle:

Well the topic is has more general view, and intend to compare GMAT results of native versus non-native speakers. So if you are a native speaker, it is much comfortable for you to sit the test.
I agree that people from the same group are compared peer to peer.


It seems that the Chinese are more comfortable with the GMAT than the Americans :-D :

China Mean Total Score: 599*
U.S. Mean Total Score: 533*

*Source: "Profile of GMAT Candidates 2003-2008" - GMAC


This can serve as an example of misuse of statistics to draw incorrect inferences.
Chinese who give GMAT aspire to get an MBA from US or other International schools, usually top ranked ones due to the high cost based on purchasing power parity.
The average Chinese writing GMAT is more ambitious than the average American writing GMAT. You will usually find the number of Chinese is in much small number in school beyond the Top 20 and almost negligible in schools ranked lower than 40. In contrast Americans attend all the business schools ranking even 100+.


I agree that the "average" Chinese test taker is above the "average" American test taker for the reasons you mentioned. However, the "average" Chinese did not live or study in English a speaking society from birth. The difference between Cantonese and English is a hell of challenge to overcome, even for the brightest.

I put these statistics not to reach any conclusion but to show that even those with a VERY different language can excel in the GMAT with hard working.

Anyway, this whole idea that GMAT discrimates non-english speakers is irrelevant during the MBA application process: Chinese compete against Chinese, Black Americans against Black Americans, Brazilians against Brazilians, Italians against Italians, and so on.
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Re: Does the GMAT discriminate non-english speakers? [#permalink] New post   28 Jul 2010, 05:26
nonameee wrote:
Exactly, if you feel it's not fair, don't apply to b schools.

Posted from my mobile device

i first read your name 'nonsense' but infact it was nooname...lol :-D just kidding....

If you say so ,you wont make good business man or it proves you dont have good businessman's intension and i wonder why you are here in business school forum :-D

if you say 'ok you say my product is bad ...go away dont buy it....' :-D then you will end up in rock band with that intension...

no offence...
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Re: Does the GMAT discriminate non-english speakers? [#permalink] New post   28 Jul 2010, 05:30
MBAUncle wrote:
Pkit wrote:
to Mba Uncle:

Well the topic is has more general view, and intend to compare GMAT results of native versus non-native speakers. So if you are a native speaker, it is much comfortable for you to sit the test.
I agree that people from the same group are compared peer to peer.


It seems that the Chinese are more comfortable with the GMAT than the Americans :-D :

China Mean Total Score: 599*
U.S. Mean Total Score: 533*

*Source: "Profile of GMAT Candidates 2003-2008" - GMAC

well last time i forwarded this info somebody was saying that 'lots of cheating and all in china'.Ok i dont know it is true or not...but just saying that info was forwarded by opposing person...

Plus,i dont see big american companies lead by chinese,or chinese in higher ranks in big companies or chinese topping many business schools....(ok in numbers...)
so what does it say about GMAT? 8-)
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Re: Does the GMAT discriminate non-english speakers? [#permalink] New post   28 Jul 2010, 05:40
MBAUncle wrote:

I put these statistics not to reach any conclusion but to show that even those with a VERY different language can excel in the GMAT with hard working.

Anyway, this whole idea that GMAT discrimates non-english speakers is irrelevant during the MBA application process: Chinese compete against Chinese, Black Americans against Black Americans, Brazilians against Brazilians, Italians against Italians, and so on.

I am quite sure that you first language is english... :)

I dont say non native speakers cannot do well in gmat.I think there are lots of chinese,indians who have score may be 770-790 in gmat but we are talking in general....
where 10 students score 750 ----10,000 of same country score 550 does it mean that those 10,000 applicants were careless...
I think it is easy of speak being in 'drivers seat' but it is completly different story when u r in recipent's seat.

Rather than directly saying it is IRRELEVANT,if you could go to our earlier post and address those then i may agree,'oh i was wrong and taking things wrongly'
only conclusion is not going to help
its your opinion being in different position ...it maynot be fact...
no offence...just my personal experience...
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Re: Does the GMAT discriminate non-english speakers? [#permalink] New post   29 Jul 2010, 06:11
frank1 wrote:
MBAUncle wrote:

I put these statistics not to reach any conclusion but to show that even those with a VERY different language can excel in the GMAT with hard working.

Anyway, this whole idea that GMAT discrimates non-english speakers is irrelevant during the MBA application process: Chinese compete against Chinese, Black Americans against Black Americans, Brazilians against Brazilians, Italians against Italians, and so on.

I am quite sure that you first language is english... :)

I dont say non native speakers cannot do well in gmat.I think there are lots of chinese,indians who have score may be 770-790 in gmat but we are talking in general....
where 10 students score 750 ----10,000 of same country score 550 does it mean that those 10,000 applicants were careless...
I think it is easy of speak being in 'drivers seat' but it is completly different story when u r in recipent's seat.

Rather than directly saying it is IRRELEVANT,if you could go to our earlier post and address those then i may agree,'oh i was wrong and taking things wrongly'
only conclusion is not going to help
its your opinion being in different position ...it maynot be fact...
no offence...just my personal experience...


First of all, English is neither my first nor my second language... It's my third. :roll: I am struggling with the verbal part as any other non-native speaker.

Second, I did not understand your point. Speaking in GMAT language:

PREMISSE: Since on the MBA admissions process each candidate compete against other candidates of the SAME PEER GROUP (ChineseXChinese, IndianXIndian, Black American X Black American, etc.), those from the same peer group face THE SAME difficulties in the GMAT.
CONCLUSION Therefore, it doesn´t matter whether or not the GMAT is in English.
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Re: Does the GMAT discriminate non-english speakers? [#permalink] New post   02 Aug 2010, 21:43
MBAUncle wrote:


CONCLUSION Therefore, it doesn´t matter whether or not the GMAT is in English.

i wish these were true and i challenge lets translate gmat verbal questions to his and her native language ,take the test and compare the scores....
i bet their will be from 'some' to 'huge' improvements....
we dont have to do any thing to prove gmat is baised towards natives....'Idioms' what are those....non natives should memorize them....

i agree,i cannot have every thing if i am going for universities in other countries(that means i agree their rules....thats why i am going there...)

Not only in verbal,if question are in own language then it will help person to understand quantative word problems in shorter time....time management is imp thing for good score so it will also help(why?....lots of reasons there....)

but having said that "it doesn´t matter whether or not the GMAT is in English" is totally false in any logical grounds...
your premise and conclusion relation is not correct....you are drawing out huge conclusion presenting limited premises....
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Re: Does the GMAT discriminate non-english speakers? [#permalink] New post   03 Aug 2010, 04:51
I really think this topic is being blown out of proportion. This is circular logic, really. Non native speakers need to have a fundamental understanding of the language and it's structure if they were to sit in class and listen to the professor using common idioms in speech. It is a manner of speaking when people use some of these and it's not very uncommon. The GMAT tries to evaluate people on the same grounds but of course yes, it's easier for native speakers in some senses. But what about non native speakers who've never studied math after high school? Does the GMAT distinguish or
discriminate against them? Yeah. Sure. Why not?

So we can go round and round and keep arguing about this but it's never going to end. End point? If you want to come and live in the US and go to, say, a top ten school you need to speak English just as well or perhaps better than a native speaker. And that's all there is to it. And while you study do remember even within native speakers some of the rules of the GMAT are peculiar. The GMAT is a test and you should just study for it as any other test and leave it at that.

:)

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Re: Does the GMAT discriminate non-english speakers? [#permalink] New post   04 Aug 2010, 09:48
ok bottom line seems to be YES IT does
and
my request is B school should not give that much(huge now) emphasis to gmat......some college say 'you cannot get admission to our unless you get 700+....some says for even 10% scholarship or GA you will need very good gmat score...
below 600 is no good....

This is closing door to students of some countries who really want to study in usa for good education ....
This may be mere arguement or tropic for some where as is very big issue for students of many countries......where english speaking culture is not good in elementary and school level....
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Re: Does the GMAT discriminate non-english speakers? [#permalink] New post   04 Aug 2010, 11:59
Spanish BS have their own test which is in Spanish, for those who can't do GMAT. I would be surprised if the test for US schools would be in Spanish, French or Chinese. It wouldn't make sense. For those who can't do GMAT there are other opportunities in their home country. But in Rome do as the Romans do.
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Re: Does the GMAT discriminate non-english speakers? [#permalink] New post   04 Aug 2010, 20:13
I like this topic because I'm adding another idiom to my list

its "discriminate against" someone, not "discriminate" someone :-D
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Re: Does the GMAT discriminate non-english speakers? [#permalink] New post   05 Sep 2010, 09:53
When you receive your GMAT score report, on the 3rd page (FAQ) you may read the following:
This is GMAC's statement.


What doesn’t the GMAT exam measure?
It does not measure your knowledge of business, your job skills, or subjective qualities such as motivation, creativity, and interpersonal skills. If a test taker’s first language is not English, he or she may still perform well on the exam; however, the GMAT exam may not accurately reflect the abilities of someone who is not proficient in English.
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Re: Does the GMAT discriminate non-english speakers? [#permalink]
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