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gurpreetsingh
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Does the GMAT discriminate non-english speakers? 05 Sep 2010, 10:16
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GMAT does not intentionally discriminate. They have to cope up with the standard requirement required by the business schools. English is used worldwide and is considered to be the corporate language.

Yes I would not deny that the Non-Native applicants are at disadvantage, but its comforting to know that Gmat does not measure your vocabulary but measure the ability to write proper English, think critically and comprehend the text.
These qualities are very important.

The native applicant having good Quant skills is likely to score much higher than the non-native having great Quant skills.

In Quant a person can afford to miss 15 questions and can still score above 40, but in verbal if you lose 15 questions even if they are intersperse you will not score above 30. I know many of you would argue that there are lots of other factors as well, I do agree but even if you take best case of all scenario missing 15 questions in verbal will not let you score V30+.( Just an example)

Now even if you score Q51 with verbal below 30, it becomes very difficult to touch 700.
So the bottom line is to score high in Gmat you have to score good in verbal, at least above 38.

This is the discrimination. :)
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Does the GMAT discriminate non-english speakers? 05 Sep 2010, 10:34
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gurpreetsingh
GMAT does not intentionally discriminate. They have to cope up with the standard requirement required by the business schools. English is used worldwide and is considered to be the corporate language.

Yes I would not deny that the Non-Native applicants are at disadvantage, but its comforting to know that Gmat does not measure your vocabulary but measure the ability to write proper English, think critically and comprehend the text.
These qualities are very important.

The native applicant having good Quant skills is likely to score much higher than the non-native having great Quant skills.

In Quant a person can afford to miss 15 questions and can still score above 40, but in verbal if you lose 15 questions even if they are intersperse you will not score above 30. I know many of you would argue that there are lots of other factors as well, I do agree but even if you take best case of all scenario missing 15 questions in verbal will not let you score V30+.( Just an example)

Now even if you score Q51 with verbal below 30, it becomes very difficult to touch 700.
So the bottom line is to score high in Gmat you have to score good in verbal, at least above 38.

This is the discrimination. :)
Show more

+1!

I perfectly agree with you gurpreetsingh.

Yes, it does not discriminate intentionally, but yes, it discriminates unintentionally and the level of discrimination is directly proprtional to one's verbal ability. :)
So, if English is required, one has nothing to do just to improve her/his verbal skills.
By the way if one scores Q51,V30 it is 670 score.
Well it is debatable, few times during my prep CATs practice I have received raw verbal score more than 30 with more than 15 mistakes.
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Does the GMAT discriminate non-english speakers? 05 Sep 2010, 10:36
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I have mentioned that it is just an example.
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Does the GMAT discriminate non-english speakers? Updated on: 15 Oct 2010, 21:41
Originally posted by frank1 on 08 Sep 2010, 09:24.
Last edited by frank1 on 15 Oct 2010, 21:41, edited 1 time in total.
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i like to just add just one line....
i dont have to say anything ....
if anybody or native speakers dont think non native speakers are not discriminated(i dont say gmat does it),i challenge them to take the verbal section of the test in may be chinese,hindi,spanish any other language they know and score the same they have scored earlier.....
(ok there may be other logics such as "ok you want to come here so you need english" but main issue here is does things tested in gmat in gmat-english language discriminate non native english speakers?"
the answer is yes it does
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Does the GMAT discriminate non-english speakers? 13 Sep 2010, 07:36
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frank1
Pkit

... So,these are what i think.
and i know these are just talks for talk....nothing is going to change....atleast for some years
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Great talk for talk then, I'm a non native speaker as well and thought I needed to worry more about math than verbal since I scored 110 at the TOEFL, the post made me open my eyes... and now I'm equally worried! :S

Though both the TOEFL and GMAT are part of my application profile so maybe the TOEFL score will make an amend if I mess up my verbal, and of course, there's always retaking.
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Does the GMAT discriminate non-english speakers? 13 Sep 2010, 09:23
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I think the "fault" might also be international -non english speaking countries adapting to GMAT and numerous international students trying to get into US schools. Then the snowball effect took place and GMAT is pretty much the standard for many international schools.
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Does the GMAT discriminate non-english speakers? 14 Sep 2010, 05:26
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shaselai
I think the "fault" might also be international -non english speaking countries adapting to GMAT and numerous international students trying to get into US schools.
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Folks, let's blame it on globalization, international students are exposed to other cultures and then an interest on "crossing roads" is awaken. In my case, I live in a country where jobs door are open for those who have studied abroad, so I'm sort of obliged to.
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Does the GMAT discriminate non-english speakers? 21 Nov 2010, 01:52
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Pkit
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GMAT does not intentionally discriminate. They have to cope up with the standard requirement required by the business schools. English is used worldwide and is considered to be the corporate language.

Yes I would not deny that the Non-Native applicants are at disadvantage, but its comforting to know that Gmat does not measure your vocabulary but measure the ability to write proper English, think critically and comprehend the text.
These qualities are very important.

The native applicant having good Quant skills is likely to score much higher than the non-native having great Quant skills.

In Quant a person can afford to miss 15 questions and can still score above 40, but in verbal if you lose 15 questions even if they are intersperse you will not score above 30. I know many of you would argue that there are lots of other factors as well, I do agree but even if you take best case of all scenario missing 15 questions in verbal will not let you score V30+.( Just an example)

Now even if you score Q51 with verbal below 30, it becomes very difficult to touch 700.
So the bottom line is to score high in Gmat you have to score good in verbal, at least above 38.

This is the discrimination. :)

+1!

I perfectly agree with you gurpreetsingh.

Yes, it does not discriminate intentionally, but yes, it discriminates unintentionally and the level of discrimination is directly proprtional to one's verbal ability. :)
So, if English is required, one has nothing to do just to improve her/his verbal skills.
By the way if one scores Q51,V30 it is 670 score.
Well it is debatable, few times during my prep CATs practice I have received raw verbal score more than 30 with more than 15 mistakes.
Show more


U're right in saying that GMAT does not discriminate intentionally. As per my experience, there are english language tests that do discriminate. I recently took an IELTS test with the following result: Listening Section - 9/9, Reading Comprehension - 9/9, Speaking Section - 7/9, Writing Section - 7/9. The earlier two sections have objective questions while the latter two are judged subjectively. Needless to say, when they have points for accent (correct pronunciation, among other things), then the tests start to discriminate.
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Does the GMAT discriminate non-english speakers? 21 Nov 2010, 03:41
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Werewolf
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gurpreetsingh
GMAT does not intentionally discriminate. They have to cope up with the standard requirement required by the business schools. English is used worldwide and is considered to be the corporate language.

Yes I would not deny that the Non-Native applicants are at disadvantage, but its comforting to know that Gmat does not measure your vocabulary but measure the ability to write proper English, think critically and comprehend the text.
These qualities are very important.

The native applicant having good Quant skills is likely to score much higher than the non-native having great Quant skills.

In Quant a person can afford to miss 15 questions and can still score above 40, but in verbal if you lose 15 questions even if they are intersperse you will not score above 30. I know many of you would argue that there are lots of other factors as well, I do agree but even if you take best case of all scenario missing 15 questions in verbal will not let you score V30+.( Just an example)

Now even if you score Q51 with verbal below 30, it becomes very difficult to touch 700.
So the bottom line is to score high in Gmat you have to score good in verbal, at least above 38.

This is the discrimination. :)

+1!

I perfectly agree with you gurpreetsingh.

Yes, it does not discriminate intentionally, but yes, it discriminates unintentionally and the level of discrimination is directly proprtional to one's verbal ability. :)
So, if English is required, one has nothing to do just to improve her/his verbal skills.
By the way if one scores Q51,V30 it is 670 score.
Well it is debatable, few times during my prep CATs practice I have received raw verbal score more than 30 with more than 15 mistakes.


U're right in saying that GMAT does not discriminate intentionally. As per my experience, there are english language tests that do discriminate. I recently took an IELTS test with the following result: Listening Section - 9/9, Reading Comprehension - 9/9, Speaking Section - 7/9, Writing Section - 7/9. The earlier two sections have objective questions while the latter two are judged subjectively. Needless to say, when they have points for accent (correct pronunciation, among other things), then the tests start to discriminate.
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well.. IELTS it is an English exam, if your speaking is not perfect (for example, your pronunciation) it is perfectly normal that you don't score 9.
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Does the GMAT discriminate non-english speakers? 21 Nov 2010, 06:58
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skipjames
Well said Walker.

Thank you walker, you probably understand me perfectly, because we are from the same region.
My score has already been improved by more than 100 points, since 3 month of intensive preparation.
Of course I do not negate the importance of English, because it is primarily language of study in most Business schools in the world.
I agree with you and you are perfectly right, but I just wanted to say that, given the fact that GMAT measures individual intellectual abilities, this measurement may be a bit distorted. Lets imagine, if GMAT had been adjusted to native language of test takers, test results would have been different. This was my point. :)
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Do you mind me asking where from E. Europe you are? I am coming from those areas as well... :)
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Does the GMAT discriminate non-english speakers? 04 Apr 2011, 03:37
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GMAT discriminates non-native speakers who don't put enough hours to beat the average native speaker.
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Does the GMAT discriminate non-english speakers? 05 May 2011, 23:26
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Is the GMAT offered in different languages? Because if you are planning to become a business manager in the US you should be able to deal the English on the GMAT without any problem. But if you want to pursue business in a country that has a different native language than that is a different story. But if you can't understand the details within a GMAT passage, then how would you understand the details within the complex structure of a business?
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Does the GMAT discriminate non-english speakers? 06 May 2011, 07:41
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I don't think anyone is claiming that the GMAT isn't harder for non-native speakers than it is for native speakers.

However, this is irrelevant. If you're applying to a school in which the classes, discussions, and study groups are conducted in English, then you need to demonstrate that you're able to perform under these circumstances while communicating in English.

If I was going to China to study, I would EXPECT to be tested on my ability to communicate with the professors and my peers.

To be honest, and I don't mean to offend, but I find it very troubling that people are applying to an English program in which they'll be required to perform an incredible amount of analysis of English cases and textbooks, and complaining that one of the criteria for admission is a test which depends on the ability to perform in-depth analysis of English passages and arguments.
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Does the GMAT discriminate non-english speakers? 06 May 2011, 11:19
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jko
I don't think anyone is claiming that the GMAT isn't harder for non-native speakers than it is for native speakers.

However, this is irrelevant. If you're applying to a school in which the classes, discussions, and study groups are conducted in English, then you need to demonstrate that you're able to perform under these circumstances while communicating in English.

If I was going to China to study, I would EXPECT to be tested on my ability to communicate with the professors and my peers.

To be honest, and I don't mean to offend, but I find it very troubling that people are applying to an English program in which they'll be required to perform an incredible amount of analysis of English cases and textbooks, and complaining that one of the criteria for admission is a test which depends on the ability to perform in-depth analysis of English passages and arguments.
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I agree 100%. The GMAT is not supposed to help you or teach you how to deal with subject matter, it is supposed to test you to see if you can deal with complex matter. And I agree with the GMAT's system of doing so. The content of the passages such as biology and chemistry are irrelevant because the passage is only testing your ability to comprehend complex subject matter.

I can see why someone who does not speak English as their first language would think the GMAT is bias. When I go through SC material I think to myself how the hell could someone who speaks English as a second language get any of this? I have been speaking English my whole life, and I barely get it. But can you imagine getting an email from your boss with misplaced modifiers and improper pronouns? It would look horrible. So once again the GMAT test is justified in its reasoning, but I can see why you would think it is bias.
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Does the GMAT discriminate non-english speakers? 06 May 2011, 13:03
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I agree with gurpreetsingh. GMAT tests on global business standard English language. Period. Discrimination has a negative connotation to it, that should not be applied in this scenario.

To excel in business in the US and globally, not understanding English could be a huge hurdle.
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Does the GMAT discriminate non-english speakers? 06 May 2011, 16:21
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with all of that said MBA programs are filled with international students and they are interested in increasing diversity. so I think schools probably factor in this inherent discrimination.
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Does the GMAT discriminate non-english speakers? 10 Jul 2011, 19:59
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I recently came across this article: GMAT Test: The 1 GMAT Strategy You Need To Know on https://www.gmatpill.com/the-gmat-pill-m ... -strategy/

Zeke`s main idea is the following.

Quote:
But at the end of the day, doing well on the VERBAL section is more important to your overall GMAT score than if you did equally well on the MATH section–this is ESPECIALLY true in the 700+ range. If you are targeting this score range, you MUST polish up your verbal section–particularly the reading comprehension part.

GMAT Verbal Importance
Don’t believe me? Let’s look at some data focusing on the highest levels of scoring: 700+ range

Perfect GMAT Verbal Score
If you score 99th percentile in Verbal (49V), and your Quant score is…
39M = 57th percentile = Total (730, 96th percentile)
41M = 63th percentile = Total (730, 96th percentile)
43M = 70th percentile = Total (740, 97th percentile)

Notice it does not matter how many extra points this student can get on quant. In the end, her score is around the same score of 730 whether her math score is 39 or 43. Doing well in Verbal pays off!

Now is the opposite true? What if a student scores outrageously well in Quant but average in Verbal?

Perfect GMAT Math Quant Score
If you score 99th percentile in Math (51V), and your Verbal score is…
30V = 57th percentile = Total (670, 85th percentile)
32V = 65th percentile = Total (690, 88th percentile)
34V = 70th percentile = Total (710, 92nd percentile)

Notice doing extremely well in quant does not guarantee you a good score. In fact, an average score in the 57th percentile for verbal and a perfect quant score only give you a (670, 85th percentile).
Doing well in Quant is good, but not as good as doing well in Verbal!

This is almost ridiculous! A high quant score and average verbal score yields a LOWER score than a high verbal score and an average quant score!

Indeed, the GMAT is biased towards success on the verbal section!!!

Why would the GMAT creators do this??
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So, does the GMAT discriminate non-english speakers?
I think yes it does.
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Does the GMAT discriminate non-english speakers? 10 Jul 2011, 22:09
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I feel there's no point arguing on this topic because we are on GMAT's turf and we have to play with GMAT's rules. PERIOD

Secondly, Q45 is 99%tile not because GMAT makers have made it so but it has automatically become disproportionate, since there are many international test takers who score well in Quant, which has pushed 99%tile to Q51, and relatively score less on Verbal Section. This has messed up the scoring system, according to me.

GMAT makers are subject to integrity and I firmly think there is no bias towards any native or non-native speakers. Even if there is, we can't do much about it.
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Does the GMAT discriminate non-english speakers? 11 Jul 2011, 10:08
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Interesting post.............I believe there are some factors for this bias towards Verbals
1) Demand and supply as truly mentioned by gmatpill
2) What if less people scored high on quants...then the results would be different...it would be highly biased towards those from Engg./Quant. background than against the rest
3) In the current global climate, English is the only language whose knowledge is considered essential to CONNECT with the WORLD...so logically you need to have a good grasp of English
4) English grammar is not tested --> What is tested is the LOGIC (even in SC section, yes even here)..How you can effectively communicate your ideas unambiguously in the most concise manner without violating the basic tenets of grammar...In my opinion, you do not need to be a grammar freak for getting all SC right...Because I have seen that GMAC gives higher weightage on LOGIC evn if some outer rules of Grammar are violated(The basic and most important ones, of course cannot be violated)

Feel free to add your thoughts!!!
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Does the GMAT discriminate non-english speakers? 11 Jul 2011, 17:28
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walker
My 2 cents. GMAT tries to predict your academic success in b-school. Why? CR+RC+SC is almost equal to cases: you need read carefully, fast, be critical and write a good write-up. So if you fail due to language barrier, you will fail in school for the same reason. Believe me, it is not easy to be a non-native English speaker in b-school and GMAT helps you to be prepared. You can't imagine how difficult it is for the person who have never spoken English before. I was in your shoes with 25% success rate in SC after 2 months of intensive GMAT classes. So, don't try to find excuses, just do as much as you can to learn English, not just for good score, but for ability to get much more from b-school later. By the way, I'm not talking just about academic success. For first 3 months I hated myself that I didn't spend more time on English because I can't socialize, express myself properly and so on.
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You are the man! I got this idea after ~15 days of the preparation. I was feeling sick to start with. While reading RC/CRs, I used to be like WTF?... I just don't know what this means. What if I misinterpret it? Will I get all the questions wrong? Will all the time spent reading this passage be in-vain as I will get all questions wrong anyways? Even worse when in the 1st line of the RC you hit some unknown (for you but common among the native speakers) word(s) that you have no freaking clue what-so-ever. That's a very depressing scenario. And EVERY non-native speaker goes through that. Just keep chugging! It only gets easier and you start making right assumptions of these GMAT's tricky words, whose meanings are sometimes not that difficult to guess.

Anyhow, point I am trying to make is - GMAT IS A NECESSITY FOR MBA (period!). In the past couple of months, I can't even imagine how much I have improved. I feel good about myself. I have written few recommendation for promotions of my colleagues in last 15 days, and I can see a drastic difference in my presentation of ideas and my choice of words. I did an interview of a candidate 10 days ago and wrote a full review of the candidate (that's a normal protocol at our work) - In my 5 years, I have never written such a review; My CTO sent me email the next day appraising it whole-heartedly, thanking me and saying one of the best reviews he has read. What I used to consider flamboyant while reading/writing, is now soothing to me! I am enjoying the whole experience more than ever. No matter what happens, I know GMAT is teaching me many things and even if few consider GMAT biased, I praise it WHOLE-HEARTEDLY. In modern era, ENGLISH IS THE MUST!

My one and only advice - ENJOY the experience! Feel as-if GMAT is doing you a favor by making you learn the MOST IMP aspect of your being a professional (period!).
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