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Re: Why You Should Use LSAT Tests for GMAT RC & CR [#permalink]
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gmatophobia wrote:
Hello Experts - GMATNinja, KarishmaB,MartyTargetTestPrep,

Do you have a list of question types that appear in LSAT CR but are either not tested in the GMAT or appear very rarely?

Few topics/types of questions that I know of (please correct me if I am wrong here)

Parallel Reasoning (very rare in GMAT)

Main Point (asked in GMAT RC, I don't remember seeing an official CR question testing the main point question)

Conclusion-type questions (tested as a part of boldface, not standalone if I am correct). Referring to questions with stem similar to "Which one of the following best expresses the conclusion presented in the argument?"

Any other such as the ones listed above?

As the number of available LSAT questions is HUGE, wanted to know which questions can be ignored while solving LSAT questions.

Also - apart from boldface is there any type of questions that are tested in the GMAT but do not appear in the LSAT?

Thanks in advance for your reply :)

This might sound counterintuitive, but in our experience, it's not really worth "filtering" out question types that don't show up on the GMAT. The underlying skills (e.g. reading precision, paying attention to modifiers, structural thinking) are the same, so it's all good practice.

Just as importantly, we're big fans of the data that can come from doing full LSAT sets. If you're seeing quite a bit of variation in your times or accuracy, that means that you're doing something differently, since each set of ~25 LSAT questions is roughly the same difficulty level. You can also compare RC and CR sets: if you're quite a bit worse (or even just slower) at one than the other, that's a sign that something is glitchy in your approach.

That said, we rarely waste time reviewing parallel reasoning questions with our students, so if you're going to skip any, those are probably first on the chopping block; we don't obsess over questions that ask "which of the following principles, if established...", either.

The other question types you mentioned probably aren't different enough to be worth removing -- "main point" questions aren't so different from GMAT main idea questions, and most GMAT CR questions require you to identify the conclusion (even if very few questions ask you for it directly).

Don't get me wrong: I'm not suggesting that LSAT questions and GMAT questions are identical. There are plenty of differences -- I just don't think that those differences do much to reduce the value of LSAT questions for GMAT students. So for most test-takers, it's not worth the effort to remove certain question types, since you'll get cleaner data if you keep the sets intact.

I hope that helps!
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Re: Why You Should Use LSAT Tests for GMAT RC & CR [#permalink]
Can one then skip practicing the "Similar Reasoning" / "Parallel Reasoning" questions on LSAT if preparing for GMAT?

GMATNinja wrote:

Using LSAT Tests for GMAT CR and RC


If you’re a regular visitor to the GMAT Club verbal forums, you might already be familiar with the painful fact that it can be difficult to improve on GMAT CR and RC. Unless you’re one of the lucky few who can effortlessly conquer CR and RC, you probably also know that there are no magic formulas or quick fixes on CR or RC.

Some of my favorite stories of GMAT glory come from test-takers who improved by leaps and bounds after Herculean efforts on CR and RC. After several years(!) of battling the GMAT, GMAT Club legend Abhishek.pitti completed his quest from 420 to 570 to 590 to 700 to HBS only after he started focusing on CR and RC.
I once worked with a student who did 4,000 CR and RC practice questions – and she was rewarded with a 750 and a ticket to HBS.

Hopefully, you won’t need to take your CR and RC studies to such extremes. But if you think that you’ll need extra practice on CR and RC, you might consider using our favorite non-GMAT tool: official LSAT questions.

LSAT questions aren’t perfect for everybody, but here are a few reasons why the LSAT might be a worthwhile supplement to your GMAT study materials:


Reason #1: you’re running out of official GMAT RC and CR questions


As many of you know, absolutely nothing beats official GMAT questions. The GMAT spends somewhere between $1500 and $3000 perfecting every single test question – and even the very best test-prep companies simply can’t compete with that.

But there’s a huge problem: there really aren’t that many official GMAT questions available to us. The GMAT OGs, the official verbal review guides, and the GMATPrep Question Pack offer a grand total of around 400 CR and 400 RC questions, even if you dive into older editions of the books. That might sound like a lot, but if you do 20 CRs and 20 RCs every day, you’ll exhaust the supply in a few weeks.

The LSAT is the next-best thing. Each LSAT question is painstakingly tested and vetted – just like official GMAT questions. And the supply of official LSAT questions is nearly limitless: there are currently about 80 official LSAT exams in print, each of which contains roughly 50 CR questions (known as logical reasoning on the LSAT) and 25 RC questions, for a grand total of around 6000(!!) high-quality practice questions.

So if you need extra CR or RC practice, you’ll never run out of LSAT materials.


Reason #2: official LSAT questions are harder than most GMAT questions


Another problem with the official GMAT questions is that many of them are too easy if you’re shooting for a GMAT score of 650 or above. The OGs and Question Pack feature a reasonably representative cross-section of questions, ranging from the very easiest (“200-level questions,” in theory) to the very toughest (“800-level questions”). So if you crave a top-tier GMAT score, perhaps only the toughest 50% of GMAT Official Guide questions will give you an adequate verbal workout.

But LSAT questions are consistently really, really tough. If we imagine that the questions in the GMAT OGs range in difficulty from 200 to 800, I’d argue that LSAT questions range from something like 500 to 850. LSAT RC passages are, on average, much longer than GMAT RC passages, and the language is generally more challenging than anything you’ll encounter on the GMAT. And that’s wonderful if you’re striving for an elite GMAT score. Even if your reading skills are absolutely spectacular, we promise that the hardest LSAT CR and RC questions will make you sweat.

So if you want to work out your reading muscles at a high level, nothing in the test-prep world is better than retired LSAT exams.


Reason #3: the differences between LSAT and GMAT questions are mostly cosmetic


Let’s be honest: the LSAT isn’t exactly the GMAT. LSAT RC passages are, on average, longer and wordier than their GMAT counterparts. The GMAT prefers realistic-sounding passages about business and politics, while the LSAT often strays into abstract philosophical, literary, and legal topics. Many LSAT answer choices sound like “legalese,” with plenty of mumbo-jumbo about premises and patterns of reasoning. And some LSAT question types – most notably the parallel reasoning questions – barely appear on the GMAT at all.

But after assigning LSAT questions to hundreds of GMAT students over the years, we're convinced that the LSAT is 100% worthwhile for anybody chasing an elite score. Despite the cosmetic differences between the two tests, the skills required to succeed on the LSAT are exactly the same as those needed to beat the GMAT: you’ll need to read the passages with pinpoint precision, apply airtight logic, have a flawless understanding of the structure and scope of the passage, and ensure that outside information never sneaks into your thought process.

The bottom line: if you can consistently crush LSAT questions, you’ll do really, really well on GMAT CR and RC.


Ready to get started?


I’m the first to admit that a pile of LSAT books won’t magically cure all of your GMAT verbal problems. If you’re struggling with the language or logic of basic GMAT verbal questions, the LSAT might be overkill. In the long run, LSAT questions can definitely help you improve your fundamental reading and logical skills – but they’re no magic bullet, and they can be demoralizing if your skills aren’t already pretty good.

But if you’re interested in challenging yourself with some LSAT materials, I’d recommend starting with the 25 RC and 50 CR (“logical reasoning”) questions available in sections 2-4 of the free, official test on the LSAT website. (I’d also recommend ignoring the LSAT’s ridiculous time limit of 35 minutes per section. If you can do each set of 25 questions in less than an hour, you’re doing great.)

If you want more, you can move on to any of the LSAT’s creatively-named books: 10 Actual, Official LSAT PrepTests, or The Next 10 Actual, Official LSAT PrepTests, or any other similarly-named book – though none of them include answer explanations. Alternatively, you could pick up The Official LSAT SuperPrep I or The Official LSAT SuperPrep II, each of which includes three tests with detailed, official explanations.

Got questions? Feel free to ask us anything about the LSAT below.
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Re: Why You Should Use LSAT Tests for GMAT RC & CR [#permalink]
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kittle wrote:
Can one then skip practicing the "Similar Reasoning" / "Parallel Reasoning" questions on LSAT if preparing for GMAT?

It's true that you're very unlikely to encounter these kinds of questions on the GMAT.

However, one of the key attributes of LSAT sections is that you can compare your results from one set to the next. Skipping questions will add in some variance to that nice, clean data. For example, let's say that you made 5 errors on one LSAT section and 8 on another. Did you make fewer errors because you skipped more questions, or because you improved? Of course you can try to account for those kinds of differences, but we recommend that you do the set in its entirety in order to get cleaner information.

Additionally, the same basic CR process will work just as well on the "LSAT-y" questions as it does on the more typical "GMAT-y" questions. So you can still get good practice on something like a parallel reasoning question, even if that exact question type shows up very rarely on the GMAT.

When you review your mistakes, that's when you might treat the "LSAT-y" questions differently. You'll want to focus on the ones that seem easiest -- did you make a silly mistake on an easy question? That's the sort of mistake you'll want to take note of, because missing stuff like that will kill your GMAT score. By contrast, there's no need to spend a bunch of time and energy reviewing a tough parallel reasoning question.

I hope that helps!
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Re: Why You Should Use LSAT Tests for GMAT RC & CR [#permalink]
GMATNinja Hey! I had a quick question about using LSAT prep-materials for my CR/RC prep :) I've started doing the 'Actual Exam' series of questions and was wondering which sections I should be attempting of the LSAT. There are 4 sections there, are all of them relevant?

Cheers and many thanks!
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Re: Why You Should Use LSAT Tests for GMAT RC & CR [#permalink]
GMATNinja wrote:
This might sound counterintuitive, but in our experience, it's not really worth "filtering" out question types that don't show up on the GMAT. The underlying skills (e.g. reading precision, paying attention to modifiers, structural thinking) are the same, so it's all good practice.

Just as importantly, we're big fans of the data that can come from doing full LSAT sets. If you're seeing quite a bit of variation in your times or accuracy, that means that you're doing something differently, since each set of ~25 LSAT questions is roughly the same difficulty level. You can also compare RC and CR sets: if you're quite a bit worse (or even just slower) at one than the other, that's a sign that something is glitchy in your approach.

That said, we rarely waste time reviewing parallel reasoning questions with our students, so if you're going to skip any, those are probably first on the chopping block; we don't obsess over questions that ask "which of the following principles, if established...", either.

The other question types you mentioned probably aren't different enough to be worth removing -- "main point" questions aren't so different from GMAT main idea questions, and most GMAT CR questions require you to identify the conclusion (even if very few questions ask you for it directly).

Don't get me wrong: I'm not suggesting that LSAT questions and GMAT questions are identical. There are plenty of differences -- I just don't think that those differences do much to reduce the value of LSAT questions for GMAT students. So for most test-takers, it's not worth the effort to remove certain question types, since you'll get cleaner data if you keep the sets intact.

I hope that helps!


Hello GMATNinja,

Thanks for your reply. Do you also recommend attempting the two-passage RCs from LSAT prep tests while taking the full LSAT sets? Essentially, I am trying to assess whether it is recommended to invest time in practicing two-passage RCs given the fact that they do not appear in the GMAT. However, if attempting them is needed to maintain the time or accuracy levels in the LSAT set (i.e. not attempting them may disturb the consistency of the set), I am all in. :)

Request you to please share your thoughts on the same.

Appreciate your reply as always!
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Re: Why You Should Use LSAT Tests for GMAT RC & CR [#permalink]
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Starscreen60 wrote:
GMATNinja Hey! I had a quick question about using LSAT prep-materials for my CR/RC prep :) I've started doing the 'Actual Exam' series of questions and was wondering which sections I should be attempting of the LSAT. There are 4 sections there, are all of them relevant?

Cheers and many thanks!

Sorry, I've obviously been doing a terrible job of monitoring this particular thread!

In case it helps anybody else out there: the only LSAT sections you'll want to do are CR (called "Logical Reasoning" on the LSAT) and RC. Ignore the other section (Analytical Reasoning or "logic games"). I've also edited the original post to make this clearer.

gmatophobia wrote:
Hello GMATNinja,

Thanks for your reply. Do you also recommend attempting the two-passage RCs from LSAT prep tests while taking the full LSAT sets? Essentially, I am trying to assess whether it is recommended to invest time in practicing two-passage RCs given the fact that they do not appear in the GMAT. However, if attempting them is needed to maintain the time or accuracy levels in the LSAT set (i.e. not attempting them may disturb the consistency of the set), I am all in. :)

Request you to please share your thoughts on the same.

Appreciate your reply as always!

In a perfect world, you'll want to do the older LSATs (pre-2007 or PrepTests #1-51, roughly) that don't include Comparative Reading (the official name of the two-passage LSAT RC sets), since the older LSATs align a bit better with the GMAT. But I really don't think that the Comparative Reading will skew your results much. On the newer LSATs, they're just 1/4 of the passages, and the skills tested are broadly similar to any other RC task. So they aren't going to do you much harm.

If you wanted to just skip those Comparative Reading passages, that's probably fine, too. The only caveat is that it can be really helpful to do full LSAT RC and CR sections -- if you're much better at one than the other, that's usually a sign that something is funky with your process on the weaker question type. It's one of the things that I really appreciate about the LSAT: each set of 25 questions is roughly the same difficulty, so your results should be similar from set to set, even when you're doing a mix of CR and RC sets. But once you remove some passages, the results aren't quite as easy to compare.

I hope that helps a bit!
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