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During gladiator matches, the unfair match-up

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12 Jul 2016, 03:25
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During gladiator matches, the unfair match-up between a prisoner with a short sword and ten soldiers with horses and whips can drive the prisoner to a state of manic frenzy, like a rampaging bull whose rage increases when its hide is pierced with swords.

(A) like a rampaging bull whose rage increases when its hide is pierced with swords
(B) like the increased rage of a rampaging bull when its hide is pierced with swords
(C) like a rampaging bull that increases rage while rampaging with its hide pierced with swords
(D) just as a rampaging bull that increases rage by piercing its hide with swords
(E) just as a rampaging bull’s rage increases when it is pierced with swords

Thanks

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04 Aug 2016, 10:26
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winionhi
Hi

I agree with you. The non-possessive pronoun 'it' cannot stand the possessive bull's rage.

I. The use of possessive nouns and non-possessive nouns along with their counterparts:

1. POSSESSIVE NOUN with NON-POSSESSIVE PRONOUN is NOT OK. ----Tom’s + he, him --- is not ok.

In spite of Tom’s high scores in GMAT, he was not considered by the Ivy League for admission -- wrong

Though Tom’s score was high in the GMAT, Wharton did not consider him for admission. --- wrong.

II. BUT ALL OTHER COMBINATIONS are ok.

1.A possessive noun with a possessive pronoun is ok. ---- Tom’s + his --- is ok

Marlon Brando’s acting skills towered his personality

2. A non-possessive noun with a non-possessive pronoun . --- Tom + he , him ---- is ok
Even though he died at a very young age for a President, Kennedy was one of the most charismatic.

3. non-possessive noun with possessive pronoun ----- Tom + his---- is ok
Churchill showed great leadership even as his country was being decimated in the war against Germany

Be careful about ‘her’; her is both possessive and non-possessive.

Theresa told her mother --- ‘her’ is possessive
Theresa told her ----- ‘her’ is non-possessive – it is in object case.

IMO, this is a poorly stimulated version of its original. You might see that choice E in the original does not have such a possessive error.
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12 Jul 2016, 04:59
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This question has to do with differentiating whether you are comparing two actions or two things.

You would say, for example, the frenzied man is like the raging bull.
But you would have to say: the man can be whipped into frenzy just as a rampaging bull can be whipped into a further state of rage.

When you compare two actions, you need to use as, not like. That leaves two possible choices D and E.

Choice D is incorrect, however, because it implies that the bull is piercing itself with swords.

Choice E is hence the correct answer
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12 Jul 2016, 05:15
14101992 wrote:
This question has to do with differentiating whether you are comparing two actions or two things.

You would say, for example, the frenzied man is like the raging bull.
But you would have to say: the man can be whipped into frenzy just as a rampaging bull can be whipped into a further state of rage.

When you compare two actions, you need to use as, not like. That leaves two possible choices D and E.

Choice D is incorrect, however, because it implies that the bull is piercing itself with swords.

Choice E is hence the correct answer

Ya I was able to eliminate a b and c , but choose d , as in e the bull's rage is compared.
Is that correct?
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12 Jul 2016, 06:19
1
Kevalkhanna wrote:
During gladiator matches, the unfair match-up between a prisoner with a short
sword and ten soldiers with horses and whips can drive the prisoner to a state of
manic frenzy, like a rampaging bull whose rage increases when its hide is pierced
with swords.

(A) like a rampaging bull whose rage increases when its hide is pierced with
swords
(B) like the increased rage of a rampaging bull when its hide is pierced with
swords
(C) like a rampaging bull that increases rage while rampaging with its hide
pierced with swords
(D) just as a rampaging bull that increases rage by piercing its hide with swords
(E) just as a rampaging bull’s rage increases when it is pierced with swords

Thanks

For option E, the pronoun 'it' has no referent. Logically it should refer to rampaging bull and not rampaging bull's rage.
It is the bull that is pierced not its rage.
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12 Jul 2016, 06:52
gagan0001 wrote:
Kevalkhanna wrote:
During gladiator matches, the unfair match-up between a prisoner with a short
sword and ten soldiers with horses and whips can drive the prisoner to a state of
manic frenzy, like a rampaging bull whose rage increases when its hide is pierced
with swords.

(A) like a rampaging bull whose rage increases when its hide is pierced with
swords
(B) like the increased rage of a rampaging bull when its hide is pierced with
swords
(C) like a rampaging bull that increases rage while rampaging with its hide
pierced with swords
(D) just as a rampaging bull that increases rage by piercing its hide with swords
(E) just as a rampaging bull’s rage increases when it is pierced with swords

Thanks

For option E, the pronoun 'it' has no referent. Logically it should refer to rampaging bull and not rampaging bull's rage.
It is the bull that is pierced not its rage.

[/quote] i got it. Readding D and E closely indicates the differnce between the two answers. The 'its' and 'it'....!!! [/quote]
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12 Jul 2016, 09:28
Great comparison question.

I went with answer E because the comparison is between the rage of the bull and this is an action therefore eliminated A, B, C for the use of 'like'

Then between D and E, I went with E because 'when' is a better modifier to use for a time than 'by'.

Therefore went with answer choice E. Please do correct me if I am wrong
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12 Jul 2016, 11:02
alpham wrote:
Great comparison question.

I went with answer E because the comparison is between the rage of the bull and this is an action therefore eliminated A, B, C for the use of 'like'

Then between D and E, I went with E because 'when' is a better modifier to use for a time than 'by'.

Therefore went with answer choice E. Please do correct me if I am wrong

[/quote] Ya it's a good question. I personally struggle with some comparison questions and this is one of them.

I dont know the reason u gave for eliminating E is right or not, I feel 'the use of modifiers' is just preference to select. {correct me if I am wrong}

D and E are close enough but MEANING is different for both. E makes sense. The use of 'IT' and 'ITS' is also an issue I think to be taken care of. [/quote]
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02 Aug 2016, 11:43
Haha easy one if did questions from OG. This one is a copy of question about figure skater whose speed increases. Straight E.
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04 Aug 2016, 04:10
Kevalkhanna I have the same question as you do.. The usage of IT, referring to an action is controversial.

Verbal gurus, can someone help here? chetan2u WaterFlowsUp daagh
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16 Aug 2016, 03:44
During gladiator matches, the unfair match-up between a prisoner with a short sword and ten soldiers with horses and whips can drive the prisoner to a state of manic frenzy, like a rampaging bull whose rage increases when its hide is pierced with swords.

(A) like a rampaging bull whose rage increases when its hide is pierced with swords
(B) like the increased rage of a rampaging bull when its hide is pierced with swords
(C) like a rampaging bull that increases rage while rampaging with its hide pierced with swords
(D) just as a rampaging bull that increases rage by piercing its hide with swords
(E) just as a rampaging bull’s rage increases when it is pierced with swords

In A & C , like a rampaging bulls refers to "the unfair match-up"
B => ike the increased rage of a rampaging bull to "the unfair match-up"

Wrong comparison

D: just as a rampaging bull increases rage by piercing its hide with swords
by piercing => doer of this action is rampaging bull. Nonsensical meaning

E: just as a rampaging bull’s rage increases when it is pierced
E is also wrong
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13 Dec 2016, 10:17
I believe the question is from 4th Edition MGMAT book.

But as mentioned in the post, pronoun it in option E won't be able to modify bull since it is in possessive form.

Expert opinion?
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20 Dec 2016, 16:04
warriorguy wrote:
I believe the question is from 4th Edition MGMAT book.

But as mentioned in the post, pronoun it in option E won't be able to modify bull since it is in possessive form.

Expert opinion?

Yes, I am in agreement with you. Daagh Sir has explained the concept in his post above:
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24 Apr 2017, 21:21
sayantanc2k wrote:
warriorguy wrote:
I believe the question is from 4th Edition MGMAT book.

But as mentioned in the post, pronoun it in option E won't be able to modify bull since it is in possessive form.

Expert opinion?

Yes, I am in agreement with you. Daagh Sir has explained the concept in his post above:

Hi sayantanc2k,
But Ron said this rule is no longer valid !!??? Is it so?

https://www.manhattanprep.com/gmat/foru ... 33558.html
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23 May 2017, 11:44
1
sleepynut wrote:
Hi sayantanc2k,
But Ron said this rule is no longer valid !!??? Is it so?

https://www.manhattanprep.com/gmat/foru ... 33558.html

Hm, that's interesting! Ron obviously knows his stuff, but I'm deeply skeptical than anything has actually changed. I think Ron is suggesting that the GMAT has somehow updated the way it handles certain SC rules, but I'd be surprised if that were actually true. Perhaps Ron and MGMAT have some insider knowledge that I lack, but it's rare that the GMAT fundamentally shifts the way it tests SC rules. If they've ever tested the rule (as explained above by @daagh), I can't imagine why they would suddenly stop -- and I also can't imagine that they'd tell us if they did.

But I'd love to be wrong! If anybody has some other evidence on this, let me know.

I also went through the most recent editions of the OG and Verbal Guide, and I can't find a single violation of the rule. At least six questions have answer choices with non-possessive pronouns that could plausibly refer back to possessive antecedents; none of those answer choices are correct. (See OG 2017 #687, 734, 776; Verbal Guide 2017 #260, 262, 278.) So at the very least, I can't find any evidence that the GMAT is willing to break the rule.

And at the same time: I also can't find any explicit mentions of the rule in any official GMAT explanations. That doesn't mean much, of course: we all know that the OG explanations aren't always all that clear. ("D is awkward and wordy." Gee, thanks, OG! ) And it's also possible that I just didn't look in the right place -- maybe there's an official reference to the rule somewhere else. If any of you can find one, I'd love to hear about it!

Bottom line: I can't find any official violations of the rule, and I can point to quite a few questions where it seems to help eliminate a few answer choices. So unless somebody can come up with some more specific evidence, I'd stick with the rule for now.
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28 Jul 2017, 04:29
1
Kevalkhanna wrote:
During gladiator matches, the unfair match-up between a prisoner with a short sword and ten soldiers with horses and whips can drive the prisoner to a state of manic frenzy, like a rampaging bull whose rage increases when its hide is pierced with swords.

(A) like a rampaging bull whose rage increases when its hide is pierced with swords
(B) like the increased rage of a rampaging bull when its hide is pierced with swords
(C) like a rampaging bull that increases rage while rampaging with its hide pierced with swords
(D) just as a rampaging bull that increases rage by piercing its hide with swords
(E) just as a rampaging bull’s rage increases when it is pierced with swords

Thanks

Hi,
Please mention the source of this question. Clearly option E can't be right as Experts have also given explanations. Such questions confuses the GMAT aspirants.
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28 Jul 2017, 05:08
anje29 wrote:
Kevalkhanna wrote:
During gladiator matches, the unfair match-up between a prisoner with a short sword and ten soldiers with horses and whips can drive the prisoner to a state of manic frenzy, like a rampaging bull whose rage increases when its hide is pierced with swords.

(A) like a rampaging bull whose rage increases when its hide is pierced with swords
(B) like the increased rage of a rampaging bull when its hide is pierced with swords
(C) like a rampaging bull that increases rage while rampaging with its hide pierced with swords
(D) just as a rampaging bull that increases rage by piercing its hide with swords
(E) just as a rampaging bull’s rage increases when it is pierced with swords

Thanks

Hi,
Please mention the source of this question. Clearly option E can't be right as Experts have also given explanations. Such questions confuses the GMAT aspirants.

The source is mentioned as Manhattan GMAT. Anyway, I would safely ignore this question, as it breaks the pronoun referent rules mentioned in manhattan's latest guide as well. This is why I like solving questions with an official guide tag. There's not much controversy.

'It' can in no way refer back to bull's. 'its' can refer back to bull's, but it will still refer back to the rage.
My 2 cents mate.
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02 Aug 2017, 05:42
daagh

Very important analysis. I understood all of this except the last line.
daagh wrote:
You might see that choice E in the original does not have such a possessive error.

I see there is a possessive error, bull's + it. Am I missing something?
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02 Aug 2017, 11:08
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Mahmud
I meant this original question and its choice E, where there is no such possessive pronoun error.

During an ice age, the buildup of ice at the poles and the drop in water levels near the equator speed up the Earth’s rotation, like a spinning figure skater whose speed increases when her arms are drawn in.

(A) like a spinning figure skater whose speed increases when her arms are drawn in
(B) like the increased speed of a figure skater when her arms are drawn in
(C) like a figure skater who increases speed while spinning with her arms drawn in
(D) just as a spinning figure skater who increases speed by drawing in her arms
(E) just as a spinning figure skater increases speed by drawing in her arms

(E) just as a spinning figure skater increases speed by drawing in her arms -- skater question ( the original)
(E) just as a rampaging bull’s rage increases when it is pierced with swords - gladiator question.
You can see how the E choice in the original differs from the topic on hand.
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02 Aug 2017, 19:32
Kevalkhanna wrote:
During gladiator matches, the unfair match-up between a prisoner with a short sword and ten soldiers with horses and whips can drive the prisoner to a state of manic frenzy, like a rampaging bull whose rage increases when its hide is pierced with swords.

(A) like a rampaging bull whose rage increases when its hide is pierced with swords
(B) like the increased rage of a rampaging bull when its hide is pierced with swords
(C) like a rampaging bull that increases rage while rampaging with its hide pierced with swords
(D) just as a rampaging bull that increases rage by piercing its hide with swords
(E) just as a rampaging bull’s rage increases when it is pierced with swords

Thanks

Imo E

Here the the act of manic frenzy is compared with the increasing of rage of a bull so like is not the correct .
A is wrong as it uses like
B is wrong as it changes meaning and it seem to suggest the bull is already on rampage and uses like
C is wrong changes meaning as it suggests that bull increases it rage and the bull pierce his hide with swords.
D wrong meaning bull can not pierce his own hide
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