Recently documented examples of neurogenesis, the production of new br

There's no clause after "when." If there were, as in, "when they are placed," the structure would be a clause.

A "trigger" is only good as a "flag." It doesn't tell the whole story.

Hi MartyTargetTestPrep :

I am little bit lost here. Please help to clarify the doubt.

(D) the brain growth in mice when placed in a stimulating environment or the increase in canaries' neurons when they
1. If " when placed in a stimulating environment" acts as relative /adjective clause then it should not be a problem.
We just want to emphaise if it is turned into sub ordinate clause then it is more clear?
mice that are placed xx
So we can't reject D on this basis , right?

2. growth in mice when placed. How growth can be placed in xx. so I don't think it is umbigous , Definitely , its an object that can be placed in xx. here object refers to mice. So again it is better but not bais to reject D .Am i right?

3. So main reason to reject D is 2nd part : increase in canaries' neurons when they
Now here they refers to neurons , so definitely D should be rejected

So I think D can not be rejected on basis of 1 and 2 reasoning.

Please confirm.

Notice that "when placed in a stimulating environment" is not a clause. It's a phrase. So, as I discussed above, it's an adverbial phrase with nothing to modify.


The issue is that the sentence does not convey that the mice were placed in that environment. We know that the growth is not placed there, but the sentence does not say what is placed there.


As I discussed above, "they" would not logically refer to "neurons" because neurons do not "learn new songs."

So, the use of "they" is not clearly incorrect, and the issues I outlined above are the best reasons for eliminating (D).

Hi DmitryFarber - In the above in yellow highlight --> how are you so sure the yello is an adverbial modifier ?

If you look at the list of relative pronouns list (noun modifiers ) - who / whom / which / where / in which / when / that /

When falls as a noun modifier list.

Hi MartyTargetTestPrep - I have not gone through the TTP verbal book. Perhaps thats why I am not sure why the stuff in yellow is important to determine if the phrase in question is adjectival or adverbial.

Are you saying -- ALL noun modifiers are ALWAYS clauses ? If so, that is news to me.

Otherwise, I still don't understand why the bit in yellow is a determiner to realize whether when placed in a stimulating environment is adjectival or adverbial ?

For example :
Roger federer, who was placed 4th in the tournament, is 40 years old.

==Above "who was placed 4th in the tournament" is a clause and is adjectival

Roger federer, who was placed 4th in the tournament, is 40 years old.

== Here who was placed 4th in the tournament is NOT a clause as PLACED is a past participle BUT "who placed 4th in the tournament is still adjectiival in nature per my understanding.

Not all noun modifiers are clauses, although both of the modifiers you mentioned above are clauses.

The only reason I said, "Notice that "when placed in a stimulating environment" is not a clause," is that mSKR had made a point based on the idea that that modifier is a clause. So, I was making clear that that point was not valid, partly because that modifier is not a clause.

Thanks so much. MartyTargetTestPrep

So - "when placed in a stimulating environment" - you figured this was adverbial in nature - how ? I think I am struggling to figure out how one can determine if the phrase "when placed in a stimulating environment" is adverbial and adjectival in this context ?

Is it by process of elimination perhaps ? "When ....."

If a When phrase is to used for noun modifiers, it should be used for Time periods or years or dates only. Given you only saw "Brain growth" or "Mice" -- you figured .."Oh well, neither "Brain growth" nor "Mice" are Time periods or years or dates.

Hence "when placed in a stimulating environment" could only be adverbial in nature given the nouns for nouns modiifers are just not there.

Was that your thinking when figuring out if "when placed in a stimulating environment" was adverbial or adjectival ?

jabhatta2

"When" normally works as an adverbial modifier. As you stated in your follow-up, we can use "when" to modify time periods-- "The year when I visited Singapore"--but this is the exception, not the rule. There is simply no way for a phrase such as "when placed in a stimulating environment" to work as a noun modifier. What would it mean? That phrase can only describe what a noun (e.g. animal) does in a certain situation. That's an adverbial modifier.

Hi DmitryFarber - i thought the following could be an example of a "when" worked as a noun modifier

I like chicken when it is roasted

when it is roasted i thought referred to the object-noun "chicken" only.
when it is roasted cannot be adverbial (Referring to the subject-verb)

Reason i thought when it is roasted was a noun modifer and NOT adverbial :

- Subordinate clauses can be adjectival
- In this case, the sentence makes logical sense if the subordinate clause (I like chicken when it is roasted) modifies the noun only

Thoughts ?

Regarding Option D

WHEN can be a noun modifier or an adverb BOTH.

- See if when can be a noun modifier (is there a time stamp) – if there is none (Growth nor Mice are NOT time tamps) hence when CANNOT be a noun modifier in option D

Can When be an adverb ?
- See if when can an adverb making sense with the subject – verb.
- The subject is brain growth. The verb is missing completelely

Thus, when cannot be used as adverb as the subject (Brain growth) then would be modified and there is no verb

Thus eliminate D because of incorrect usage of WHEN (incorrect usage as a noun modifier or incorrect usage of adverb)

In E -- THAT makes sense as a noun modifier for RATs

jabhatta2


I somehow missed your "chicken" post before. In that case, "when it is roasted" is still adverbial. When do I like chicken? When it is roasted. In this case, it works a lot like "if": if the chicken is roasted, I like it. "Chicken when it is roasted" isn't a thing I can like. We have the simple "roasted chicken" for that. The only reason to go with "when it is roasted" would be to place a limit on when you like chicken, not on the chicken itself. In general, we're safest if we default to treating "when" as adverbial. The noun modifier usage is not going to show up much, and we certainly need more than a time stamp/period to tell us we have a noun modifier.

Is this sentence wrong : Water when placed in freezer becomes ice. I know when" is only used to refer to a point in time.
If above sentence is correct then why D is not correct?

Posted from my mobile device

The section in the Manhattan Prep Guide about the use of “when” is, to my understanding, referring to one case in particular: when the word “WHEN” serves to function as a Relative Pronoun.

(Case 1)
“when” used as a Relative Pronoun

The purpose for including that section in the guide was to make clear that when providing a descriptive modifier of a TIME PERIOD, one should not use “that.”

Rather, “when” (or in some cases “at which”) should be used to attach the relative clause to the Noun describing a time period.

(I believe some grammarians call this use of “when” a Relative Adverb, if you would like to google).

Ex: “The last week of September, WHEN all the vacationers finally leave the Jersey Shore, is my favorite time of year.”

—> this type of “when” clause must be attached to and describe a Noun that is a Time Period.

The main point of inclusion in Manhattan Prep’s guide, I believe, was to stress that in such a case, the use of the Relative Pronoun “that” or “which” would be NON-preferred.

INCORRECT: *Summer, WHICH is the warmest time of year on the Jersey Shore, is a time of great unrest.

However, from the context of (D), it seems pretty clear that the information following “when” doesn’t describe “mice” as an adjective (even ignoring the grammatical rules of pronoun use).

“when placed in a stimulating environment” must be describing some Action or Event that occurs WHEN something is placed in such an environment.

In other words, there doesn’t exist a sub class of noun = “mice when placed in a stimulating environment” (there IS a sub class of noun = “mice THAT are placed in a stimulating environment — *see answer E)

(2nd Case)
“When” used as a Subordinating Conjunction

Generally, most sentences that involve “when” followed by a clause (or a “reduced” clause, such as we have here) function as an adverbial modifier.

ex: “When upset and sad, Mary uses her room as refuge.”

We could also rewrite this sentence to say:

Ex: “Mary uses her room as refuge when upset and sad.”

In this case, the “Modifier” is really a reduced clause, functioning to provide more information about the main sentence.

ex: “When (she is) upset and sad, Mary uses her room as refuge.”

In most cases, the Agent or implied subject of the reduced clause is the subject of the main clause being modified.

This is exactly the scenario we have in this current sentence in version D.

D: “Recently documented examples of X INCLUDE brain growth in mice when placed in stimulating environments.”

Is the meaning supposed to be that the examples include brain growth in mice when….. the EXAMPLES are placed in stimulating environments?

Or, even if we can argue that the reference to mice is clear, the meaning would seem to say:

“Recently documented examples include the brain growth in mice when (the mice are) placed in a stimulating environment…”

This would imply that the example of brain growth is included ONLY WHEN mice are placed in a stimulating environment.

Does this mean that the example of brain growth is NOT included (as a recently documented example) when the mice are NOT placed in a stimulating environment?

The example of brain growth is documented and done so the above doesn’t really make sense. The brain growth doesn’t really disappear when the mice are no longer in the stimulating environment.

(E) makes clear that we are talking about one type of mice: “mice THAT are placed in a stimulating environment.” The brain growth that these mice experienced is one of the recently documented examples.

I believe this was the point that MartyTargetTestPrep was making. The course at T.T.P. provides deeper discussions about these sorts of things.

The reduced clause following “when” does not serve to modify “mice” or “brain growth in mice” as an adjective. It is an adverbial modifier that doesn’t make a lot of sense.

The trap in the answer choice is one designed to make the test-taker believe that modifying the noun this way is ok.

This is because most Americans speak to each other in this manner (especially all those people who come down to the Shore every summer….just kidding).

Posted from my mobile device

Could I just reject a-d for using "when"?

miko2010

There's nothing inherently wrong with using a WHEN modifier in this context. A-C all use "when" correctly to narrow down the situation in which growth occurs. D uses "when" incorrectly, as I outlined in a previous post. (relevant portion pasted below)

We can eliminate D because it has a modifier error. "When placed" is an adverbial modifier, and should therefore modify an action or clause. For instance, we might say "When placed in a stimulating environment, mice grow new brain cells," or "Mice grow new brain cells when placed in a stimulating environment." All we have to modify here is a noun phrase--"the brain growth"--so we should not use an adverbial modifier.

Recently documented examples of neurogenesis, the production of new brain cells, include the brain growing in mice when placed in a stimulating environment or neurons increasing in canaries that learn new songs.

Option Elimination -

(A) the brain growing in mice when placed in a stimulating environment or neurons increasing in canaries that - "when," "where," "how," and "why" introduce adverbials to modify action. Here, in a way, we can say that growing conveys something happening, but grammatically, there is no helping verb before growing, so it's not very convincing to modify "growing" with an adverbial. Moreover, examples of "neurogenesis" are "brain growth" and "an increase" in neurons....

(B) mice whose brains grow when they are placed in a stimulating environment or canaries whose neurons increase when they - "they" is ambiguous. Refer to "mice" or "brains"? Also, in the 2nd part, "they" refer to "canaries" or "neurons"? Ambiguous.

(C) mice's brains that grow when they are placed in a stimulating environment or canaries' neurons that increase when they - "they" referring to "neurons"? A possessive pronoun can refer to a noun or a noun in a possessive case. Possessive pronouns include - his, hers, its, mine, and so on.

(D) the brain growth in mice when placed in a stimulating environment or the increase in canaries' neurons when they - "when" introducing adverbial while we don't have any action verb here. "they" referring to "neurons"? A possessive pronoun can refer to a noun or a noun in a possessive case. Possessive pronouns include - his, hers, its, mine, and so on.

(E) brain growth in mice that are placed in a stimulating environment or an increase in neurons in canaries that - "that" introduces a relative clause that modifies nouns - here "that" correctly modifies nouns - "mice" and "canaries."