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Re: State university's physics department requires that all [#permalink]
Thanks for your detailed reply! Your replies are always helpful!

mikemcgarry wrote:
First of all, voodoochild, I know other people have told you this before repeatedly --- please DO NOT post the OA in plain sight. That's the whole point of a spoiler --- folks can look at the OA after they think through the question themselves. To post the OA in plain sight deprives other GC users of the opportunity to consider the question fresh, on their own, and is thus considered within this forum a rude and inconsiderate thing to do. Please edit your post and remove the overt statement of the OA. [I will edit out this paragraph after you remove the open statement of the OA.]




Done. I always do this mistake while writing the problem. I personally don't feel that knowing OA makes any difference. Anyway, that's just me. I have seen numerous posts where OAs are not provided. Any way, I will just follow your advice.


As always, the acid-test for an assumption is the negation-test --- if you can negate a statement, and it doesn't devastate the argument, then that's not an assumption. Negating the core assumption of an argument devastates the argument.

mikemcgarry wrote:

(A) unusual teaching styles and student popularity do not add to the reputation of the university.
Suppose unusual (let's call it "cutting edge") teaching and student popularity do add to the reputation of the school --- maybe they do, but maybe technical research adds to it MORE, so Hawking, while adding something to the university's reputation, does not add nearly as much as his research-oriented colleague. As a below-average contributor, one still could conclude he shouldn't be department head. On the negation test, this one is not a strong choice for an assumption.



Where's the support the blue statement? In fact, if we negate the statement, the argument is killed. The professor has skills that will add to the reputation! I am still not clear. The department is concerned about adding the reputation. There could be 'n' number of ways to add the reputation of the department.

thoughts?
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Re: State university's physics department requires that all [#permalink]
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voodoochild wrote:
Thanks for your detailed reply! Your replies are always helpful!

mikemcgarry wrote:
First of all, voodoochild, I know other people have told you this before repeatedly --- please DO NOT post the OA in plain sight. That's the whole point of a spoiler --- folks can look at the OA after they think through the question themselves. To post the OA in plain sight deprives other GC users of the opportunity to consider the question fresh, on their own, and is thus considered within this forum a rude and inconsiderate thing to do. Please edit your post and remove the overt statement of the OA. [I will edit out this paragraph after you remove the open statement of the OA.]




Done. I always do this mistake while writing the problem. I personally don't feel that knowing OA makes any difference. Anyway, that's just me. I have seen numerous posts where OAs are not provided. Any way, I will just follow your advice.


As always, the acid-test for an assumption is the negation-test --- if you can negate a statement, and it doesn't devastate the argument, then that's not an assumption. Negating the core assumption of an argument devastates the argument.

mikemcgarry wrote:

(A) unusual teaching styles and student popularity do not add to the reputation of the university.
Suppose unusual (let's call it "cutting edge") teaching and student popularity do add to the reputation of the school --- maybe they do, but maybe technical research adds to it MORE, so Hawking, while adding something to the university's reputation, does not add nearly as much as his research-oriented colleague. As a below-average contributor, one still could conclude he shouldn't be department head. On the negation test, this one is not a strong choice for an assumption.



Where's the support the blue statement? In fact, if we negate the statement, the argument is killed. The professor has skills that will add to the reputation! I am still not clear. The department is concerned about adding the reputation. There could be 'n' number of ways to add the reputation of the department.

thoughts?


Hi,
Please consider my reasoning:

Conclusion: Professor Hawkings is in direct violation of State University policy and shouldn't be considered a candidate for department chair.

premise1) State university's physics department requires that all tenured professors be "deliverable-oriented" in other words, focused on the creation and publication of new technical research that would add to the reputation of the university.

premise 2: Professor HAwkings, however, is known for his unorthodox methods of teaching and popularity among undergraduate students.

lets diagram it logically: (1) creation of new pub. / new research--->Reputation(2)
(3) Prof(unorthodox methods of teaching)-->popular(4)
(5)Unorthodox --- (6) [GAP] ----->No acceptence(7)

First assumption is a missing piece which usually fills logical gap to complete a conclusion.If you look at option A, it does not talk about technical research (misses out on premise 1) so this statement is a stretch and a giant leap to fill the gap.

Option D is moderate, subtle in language and beautifully connects both the premises to reach the conclusion.

a) unusual teaching styles and student popularity do not add to the reputation of the university.
d) It is unlikely that a person who uses unorthodox methods of teaching could be focused on technical research.

Now comes the negation
a) unusual teaching styles and student popularity add to the reputation of the university.
Well, it certainly attacks the conclusion, but here the author talks about the addition of reputation. Carefully observe how the argument states, "new technical research that would add to the reputation of the university".

Lets assume reputation by unorthodox means=(U) and by publications =(P)
In this case (option A) we have only (U) so it hurts, but not completely.

consider the option D
d) It is likely that a person who uses unorthodox methods of teaching could be focused on technical research.
The guy is unorthodox and he is also focused on research (U+P) this hurts argument more so, it is clear winner.

I hope i was Ok in my explanation, but one thing i want to tell you this question does not even required assumption negation, just a simple assumption connecting the dots would have been sufficient.
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Re: State university's physics department requires that all [#permalink]
Hi Conty, Your last 2 lines, summarize this question pretty well, but (A) and (D) are dangerously close, I am sure if this question comes at N0.38,when one is generally exhausted and just running to finish the GMAT marathon, those with less willpower / less mental stamina would choose (A) and move on, thus hampering their score.
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Re: State university's physics department requires that all [#permalink]
Quite true, i too messed it up with A...
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Re: State university's physics department requires that all [#permalink]
methevoid wrote:
Hi Conty, Your last 2 lines, summarize this question pretty well, but (A) and (D) are dangerously close, I am sure if this question comes at N0.38,when one is generally exhausted and just running to finish the GMAT marathon, those with less willpower / less mental stamina would choose (A) and move on, thus hampering their score.


Yep it happens with every question.Although, i answered the question in under 1:30 minutes, but when i thought of negating, i had to reread the stimulus like 2 times which is kind of luxury we won't have on the test day :? .
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Re: State university's physics department requires that all [#permalink]
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conty911 wrote:
In this case (option A) we have only (U) so it hurts, but not completely.



Conty911 - If the negation hurts the argument - that's it. It's an assumption. Necessary assumptions don't have to fill the entire gap. It just has to destroy the conclusion. Show me ANY one question from the official guide/official source that when negated, attacks the conclusion and still is the wrong answer choice.

Let's wait for Mike's expert replies. He will surely help us.....
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Re: State university's physics department requires that all [#permalink]
voodoochild wrote:
conty911 wrote:
In this case (option A) we have only (U) so it hurts, but not completely.



Conty911 - If the negation hurts the argument - that's it. It's an assumption. Necessary assumptions don't have to fill the entire gap. It just has to destroy the conclusion. Show me ANY one question from the official guide/official source that when negated, attacks the conclusion and still is the wrong answer choice.

Let's wait for Mike's expert replies. He will surely help us.....


hmm, lets agree to disagree ,i don't know whats going on in your thoughts regarding option A, but to intend that the question is wrong or the author has put misleading options by just comparing with the OG questions itself is not correct in the first place. We cannot possibly judge the ditto assumption unless we look from author's perspective.

In GMAT we have to select the best option. Out of A and D, D stands out ;in absence of D, A would have been correct.There can always be two different assumptions by two people.It is likely that they will differ at some point but that does not mean that either of their assumption will be wrong.

Although i tried my best :P, the experts might be able clear your confusion with regards to the option A.
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Re: State university's physics department requires that all [#permalink]
conty911 wrote:
hmm, lets agree to disagree ,i don't know whats going on in your thoughts regarding option A, but to intend that the question is wrong or the author has put misleading options by just comparing with the OG questions itself is not correct in the first place. We cannot possibly judge the ditto assumption unless we look from author's perspective.

In GMAT we have to select the best option. Out of A and D, D stands out ;in absence of D, A would have been correct.There can always be two different assumptions by two people.It is likely that they will differ at some point but that does not mean that either of their assumption will be wrong.

Although i tried my best :P, the experts might be able clear your confusion with regards to the option A.


Dear Conty911 - there is no "best answer" in CR. I am not a 99ile guy. But from what I have learned from the experts, the correct answer in CR and RC is always air tight. For assumptions questions- there is no way that two answers will be correct, or we have to choose the best answer. One of them HAS to be wrong. We agree that all of us, including Mike, have agreed that A is correct, but not as good as D. In fact both the answers are correct in my opinion. The reason why I quoted that Official stuff is because you won't find two correct answers in Official problem. I guess this problem is not good. I don't know. Again, I am not a 99%iler. If you know ANY such official problem, I will take my word back. Official problems are therefore "official"!


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Re: State university's physics department requires that all [#permalink]
voodoochild wrote:
State university's physics department requires that all tenured professors be "deliverable-oriented" in other words, focused on the creation and publication of new technical research that would add to the reputation of the university. Professor HAwkings, however, is known for his unorthodox methods of teaching and popularity among undergraduate students. Therefore, Professor Hawkings is in direct violation of State University policy and shouldn't be considered a candidate for department chair.

The argument assumes that ...

a) unusual teaching styles and student popularity do not add to the reputation of the university.
b) Because of lack of unity among faculty, University discourages unorthodox style of teaching
c) A professor can be popular without focus on technical research
d) It is unlikely that a person who uses unorthodox methods of teaching could be focused on technical research.
e) Undergraduate students cannot judge the quality of teaching....



Why is A incorrect?




Hey! voodoo, is this really a sub 600 Q??
I understand that this is easy, but this cannot be a sub 600... please tell me that you have wrongly posted it in this section :shock:
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Re: State university's physics department requires that all [#permalink]
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voodoochild wrote:
Conty911 - If the negation hurts the argument - that's it. It's an assumption. Necessary assumptions don't have to fill the entire gap. It just has to destroy the conclusion. Show me ANY one question from the official guide/official source that when negated, attacks the conclusion and still is the wrong answer choice. Let's wait for Mike's expert replies. He will surely help us.....

Voodoo

First of all, to be clear on the question at the head of this article. I would say (D) is completely correct, and (A) is a clever tempting incorrect answer. This is actually a brilliantly constructed fallacy to elicit in people's thinking. The pattern is

Group made a rule/law/policy for such-and-such reason.
Person X doesn't obey the rule/law/policy, but person X fulfills the philosophical "purpose" of the rule/law/policy in his own unique way.


Yes, this really appeals to the over-thinking philosophical part of us that likes to think that what really matters is not the rule/law/policy itself, but the underlying philosophical premise. It's as if the teenager inside each of us loves to imagine scenarios in which we could defy all the rules but still be justified. But think about how the real world works ---- cops, the IRS, military officers, the officers of a corporation, the INS, etc. etc. --- in most context, rules are rules, and the law is the law. If you run afoul of it, it's pretty black-and-white: there are consequences --- it doesn't matter with what you were philosophically aligned. You can have the best motivation, but if you run afoul of the law, you pay. Both Gandhi & Dr. M.L. King were very clear on this and totally accepted it.
Here, this physics department has a policy, and Hawkings is not following it. Plain and simple. Departments don't reward with leadership positions folks who don't follow policy. That's also just plain and simple. Even if (A) is true, even if Hawking's teaching is nationwide famous, award-winning pedagogy, etc. etc., it doesn't change the fact that he isn't following department policy. Rules are rules. Don't obey the rules, and there's consequences. It's that simple. That's why (A), though tempting, is wrong.
Those are my thoughts on this question.

On a separate issue: Voodoo Child. What the GMAT CR requires is flexible critical thinking. The patterns are always different, and in each new argument, there's a new angle to evaluate. Your approach is very rigid and rule-based --- I don't know how many times I have heard you say "this is always true" or "that is never true." You have clearly mastered the rule-based approach --- now, for you, progress will involve giving that up. Forswear use of the words "always", "never", "necessary", "sufficient", etc. etc. Completely give those words up. Stop pronouncing rules and defying others to produce OG examples to the contrary. (Incidentally, such attitudes & behaviors hardly will endear you to your future business school professors or colleagues.) Stop pronouncing rules and arguing in terms of rules: it makes you appear as if you are trying to sound like an expert or claim legitimacy for yourself, and none of that actually makes you more successful. Stop universalizing. Stop looking for the magic combinations of general truths with which to dissect each new CR. You have pursued this style as far as you can take it, and it's no longer paying off. Instead, make if your goal to see what is unique, different, new in each CR. What is crucial in GMAT CR happens in the particular, not in the general. Think in terms of deeper questions, of increase perceptivity, not in terms of more rigorously crafted analytical approaches. ------- Also, develop a keener sense for real world priorities -- there's no substitute for reading the newspaper every day, or the Economist magazine every week. There's no substitute for just listening to (or reading about) people in positions of leadership talking about their jobs and their priorities. Take the head of any wildly successful corporation, or successful politician, or army general -- that leader deeply understands real-world success. If you were to listen to his arguments, they might not all be logical on the surface, but there's a deeper logic of success-in-the-real-world that they follow. In all likelihood, some business school professors will try to communicate aspects of this deeper success-in-the-real-world logic, at least as it applies to business, and if you grill them with questions about "necessary" and "sufficient", you will lose out on a golden opportunity to learn and grow. ----- Of course, GMAT arguments are about surface logic at one level --- what must be true, what's the flaw, etc. --- but they are also always consistent with these much deeper forms of logic, such as success-in-the-real-world logic. Often, it's logic at that level that makes a profound difference between two answer choices that are similar in terms of surface logic. It's the intuition for those deeper currents that you need to develop. That's not a left-brain recipe kind of thing --- there's no simple "recipe" for success in the real world (if there were, we would all be wildly successful all the time!!) Understanding those deeper kinds of logic draw on right-brain pattern-matching as well as emotional intelligence. If you could start building up your skills on that side, it would wildly complement your more rule-based left-brain understanding, and you would see a quantum leap in your performance.

Here's a blog in which I discuss some of these issues:
https://magoosh.com/gmat/2012/formal-log ... reasoning/

Does all this make sense?

Mike :-)
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Re: State university's physics department requires that all [#permalink]
mikemcgarry wrote:
voodoochild wrote:
Conty911 - If the negation hurts the argument - that's it. It's an assumption. Necessary assumptions don't have to fill the entire gap. It just has to destroy the conclusion. Show me ANY one question from the official guide/official source that when negated, attacks the conclusion and still is the wrong answer choice. Let's wait for Mike's expert replies. He will surely help us.....

Voodoo

First of all, to be clear on the question at the head of this article. I would say (D) is completely correct, and (A) is a clever tempting incorrect answer. This is actually a brilliantly constructed fallacy to elicit in people's thinking. The pattern is

Group made a rule/law/policy for such-and-such reason.
Person X doesn't obey the rule/law/policy, but person X fulfills the philosophical "purpose" of the rule/law/policy in his own unique way.


Yes, this really appeals to the over-thinking philosophical part of us that likes to think that what really matters is not the rule/law/policy itself, but the underlying philosophical premise. It's as if the teenager inside each of us loves to imagine scenarios in which we could defy all the rules but still be justified. But think about how the real world works ---- cops, the IRS, military officers, the officers of a corporation, the INS, etc. etc. --- in most context, rules are rules, and the law is the law. If you run afoul of it, it's pretty black-and-white: there are consequences --- it doesn't matter with what you were philosophically aligned. You can have the best motivation, but if you run afoul of the law, you pay. Both Gandhi & Dr. M.L. King were very clear on this and totally accepted it.
Here, this physics department has a policy, and Hawkings is not following it. Plain and simple. Departments don't reward with leadership positions folks who don't follow policy. That's also just plain and simple. Even if (A) is true, even if Hawking's teaching is nationwide famous, award-winning pedagogy, etc. etc., it doesn't change the fact that he isn't following department policy. Rules are rules. Don't obey the rules, and there's consequences. It's that simple. That's why (A), though tempting, is wrong.
Those are my thoughts on this question.

On a separate issue: Voodoo Child. What the GMAT CR requires is flexible critical thinking. The patterns are always different, and in each new argument, there's a new angle to evaluate. Your approach is very rigid and rule-based --- I don't know how many times I have heard you say "this is always true" or "that is never true." You have clearly mastered the rule-based approach --- now, for you, progress will involve giving that up. Forswear use of the words "always", "never", "necessary", "sufficient", etc. etc. Completely give those words up. Stop pronouncing rules and defying others to produce OG examples to the contrary. (Incidentally, such attitudes & behaviors hardly will endear you to your future business school professors or colleagues.) Stop pronouncing rules and arguing in terms of rules: it makes you appear as if you are trying to sound like an expert or claim legitimacy for yourself, and none of that actually makes you more successful. Stop universalizing. Stop looking for the magic combinations of general truths with which to dissect each new CR. You have pursued this style as far as you can take it, and it's no longer paying off. Instead, make if your goal to see what is unique, different, new in each CR. What is crucial in GMAT CR happens in the particular, not in the general. Think in terms of deeper questions, of increase perceptivity, not in terms of more rigorously crafted analytical approaches. ------- Also, develop a keener sense for real world priorities -- there's no substitute for reading the newspaper every day, or the Economist magazine every week. There's no substitute for just listening to (or reading about) people in positions of leadership talking about their jobs and their priorities. Take the head of any wildly successful corporation, or successful politician, or army general -- that leader deeply understands real-world success. If you were to listen to his arguments, they might not all be logical on the surface, but there's a deeper logic of success-in-the-real-world that they follow. In all likelihood, some business school professors will try to communicate aspects of this deeper success-in-the-real-world logic, at least as it applies to business, and if you grill them with questions about "necessary" and "sufficient", you will lose out on a golden opportunity to learn and grow. ----- Of course, GMAT arguments are about surface logic at one level --- what must be true, what's the flaw, etc. --- but they are also always consistent with these much deeper forms of logic, such as success-in-the-real-world logic. Often, it's logic at that level that makes a profound difference between two answer choices that are similar in terms of surface logic. It's the intuition for those deeper currents that you need to develop. That's not a left-brain recipe kind of thing --- there's no simple "recipe" for success in the real world (if there were, we would all be wildly successful all the time!!) Understanding those deeper kinds of logic draw on right-brain pattern-matching as well as emotional intelligence. If you could start building up your skills on that side, it would wildly complement your more rule-based left-brain understanding, and you would see a quantum leap in your performance.

Here's a blog in which I discuss some of these issues:
https://magoosh.com/gmat/2012/formal-log ... reasoning/

Does all this make sense?

Mike :-)


Mike,
I really respect you. I have learned more from you than from any other expert on GMATClub and BTG. I didn't have any such intentions. I just repeated what one of the MGMAT instructors always says. An official GMAT answer is always CORRECT ( he recommends that we not solve questions from anything but official guide). I agree with your idea of flexible thinking. However, I don't agree with that on Assumption questions, especially necessary ones. An assumption, when negated, MUST kill the argument. No matter what language, leader or literature we talk about. I am not a 99%iler, nor even close to that. I could be wrong. However, I just said what the rule book says: an assumption, when negated, must kill the argument. This is not an official problem. I haven't seen any official problem that has two necessary assumption. I could be wrong. But then I need an evidence.


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Re: State university's physics department requires that all [#permalink]
talismaaniac wrote:
voodoochild wrote:
State university's physics department requires that all tenured professors be "deliverable-oriented" in other words, focused on the creation and publication of new technical research that would add to the reputation of the university. Professor HAwkings, however, is known for his unorthodox methods of teaching and popularity among undergraduate students. Therefore, Professor Hawkings is in direct violation of State University policy and shouldn't be considered a candidate for department chair.

The argument assumes that ...

a) unusual teaching styles and student popularity do not add to the reputation of the university.
b) Because of lack of unity among faculty, University discourages unorthodox style of teaching
c) A professor can be popular without focus on technical research
d) It is unlikely that a person who uses unorthodox methods of teaching could be focused on technical research.
e) Undergraduate students cannot judge the quality of teaching....



Why is A incorrect?




Hey! voodoo, is this really a sub 600 Q??
I understand that this is easy, but this cannot be a sub 600... please tell me that you have wrongly posted it in this section :shock:


Hey...Sorry missed this one. Yes, this is sub-600 level Q as per one of the major test prep companies (V_rit_s) :roll:
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Re: State university's physics department requires that all [#permalink]
I straight away answered as D

Yes A is a tempting answer only when core of argument is read wrongly.
Main conclusion has 2 part
1. Hawking is in violation of rules
2. Shouldn't be considered for dept head

The premise in the question focus on 1st part of conclusion second is just a result of it.
Hence if you start hunting for the missing link between " Hawking is in Violation because of unorthodox and being popular........." and "Professors should be focused on Creation and Publication of technical research......."
You will end up with D
Another way keeping in mind above explanation of conclusion Construct a logical construction you will end up constructing If you are unorthodox you are violating university rules and what is the rule is to be foccused on creation and publication that is what D says

Whereas A is just reinterpretation of Of premise its stated for assumption question you should look for unstated part of the argument that makes conclusion more strenghtened
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Re: State university's physics department requires that all [#permalink]
mikemcgarry wrote:
On a separate issue: Voodoo Child. What the GMAT CR requires is flexible critical thinking. The patterns are always different, and in each new argument, there's a new angle to evaluate. Your approach is very rigid and rule-based --- I don't know how many times I have heard you say "this is always true" or "that is never true." You have clearly mastered the rule-based approach --- now, for you, progress will involve giving that up. Forswear use of the words "always", "never", "necessary", "sufficient", etc. etc. Completely give those words up. Stop pronouncing rules and defying others to produce OG examples to the contrary. (Incidentally, such attitudes & behaviors hardly will endear you to your future business school professors or colleagues.) Stop pronouncing rules and arguing in terms of rules: it makes you appear as if you are trying to sound like an expert or claim legitimacy for yourself, and none of that actually makes you more successful. Stop universalizing. Stop looking for the magic combinations of general truths with which to dissect each new CR. You have pursued this style as far as you can take it, and it's no longer paying off. Instead, make if your goal to see what is unique, different, new in each CR. What is crucial in GMAT CR happens in the particular, not in the general. Think in terms of deeper questions, of increase perceptivity, not in terms of more rigorously crafted analytical approaches. ------- Also, develop a keener sense for real world priorities -- there's no substitute for reading the newspaper every day, or the Economist magazine every week. There's no substitute for just listening to (or reading about) people in positions of leadership talking about their jobs and their priorities. Take the head of any wildly successful corporation, or successful politician, or army general -- that leader deeply understands real-world success. If you were to listen to his arguments, they might not all be logical on the surface, but there's a deeper logic of success-in-the-real-world that they follow. In all likelihood, some business school professors will try to communicate aspects of this deeper success-in-the-real-world logic, at least as it applies to business, and if you grill them with questions about "necessary" and "sufficient", you will lose out on a golden opportunity to learn and grow. ----- Of course, GMAT arguments are about surface logic at one level --- what must be true, what's the flaw, etc. --- but they are also always consistent with these much deeper forms of logic, such as success-in-the-real-world logic. Often, it's logic at that level that makes a profound difference between two answer choices that are similar in terms of surface logic. It's the intuition for those deeper currents that you need to develop. That's not a left-brain recipe kind of thing --- there's no simple "recipe" for success in the real world (if there were, we would all be wildly successful all the time!!) Understanding those deeper kinds of logic draw on right-brain pattern-matching as well as emotional intelligence. If you could start building up your skills on that side, it would wildly complement your more rule-based left-brain understanding, and you would see a quantum leap in your performance.

Here's a blog in which I discuss some of these issues:
https://magoosh.com/gmat/2012/formal-log ... reasoning/

Does all this make sense?

Mike :-)


You can never guess what you would end up learning in this forum. Thanks Mike for taking time to write this deep analysis. It made me realize where I have been going wrong in my approach and realized that, to quote The Pirates of Caribbean, The Pirate Code is more like Guidelines.
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Re: State university's physics department requires that all [#permalink]
voodoochild wrote:
State university's physics department requires that all tenured professors be "deliverable-oriented" in other words, focused on the creation and publication of new technical research that would add to the reputation of the university. Professor HAwkings, however, is known for his unorthodox methods of teaching and popularity among undergraduate students. Therefore, Professor Hawkings is in direct violation of State University policy and shouldn't be considered a candidate for department chair.

The argument assumes that ...

a) unusual teaching styles and student popularity do not add to the reputation of the university.
b) Because of lack of unity among faculty, University discourages unorthodox style of teaching
c) A professor can be popular without focus on technical research
d) It is unlikely that a person who uses unorthodox methods of teaching could be focused on technical research.
e) Undergraduate students cannot judge the quality of teaching....



Why is A incorrect?


The answer should be D. Because it is a direct link. unorthodox methods ---> unlikely technical research ---> does not add to the reputation of the university

Why not A. It is too hard to jump from the first part to the second one without an explanation. And it is not obvious. We need something between
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Re: State university's physics department requires that all [#permalink]
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