University of St.Gallen (HSG) MBF 2014 intake

Ok Mooncakes straight answers :

how much effort did you put into learning German?
ans - I am at B1 according to CEF ..people who have done this would know that it is tremendous amount of hardwork indeed.
on paper need B2 at least . In reality must know the culture, be able to elevator pitch, etc...can never beat a native speaker even if effort -> 00

I am glad you did your research and called up career services unlike me. This means I won!!!
(not to take it away from you but career services is facing the heat from current students as well. )

-Snowden

Snowden -

As an individual who falls into category 5/6 (currently a category 6 US citizen but am marrying a EU national soon so will technically be 5 by next year), I found your post highly insightful and useful. I will no longer be considering St. Gallen for their MBF or SIM programs; I am currently graduated and have been gaining internship/WE while applying for EU programs (matriculation Fall 2014).

I believe it would be much better for someone in my position to focus on schools like HEC Paris, IE, ESADE, Bocconi, and Warwick... and upon choosing one of those schools, I will heavily study the country's respective language (luckily, French, Spanish and Italian are way easier than German) until September in order to maximize my chances of attaining employment upon graduation. Especially considering the wide geographical disbursement of career placements at the aforementioned schools (with the exception of Warwick, perhaps) it seems that you are completely correct in your assertions about St. Gallen's limited prospects for non-Swiss, non-German speaking graduates.

Do you believe my strategy above is founded in reliable logic? Likewise, I find it interesting how small the percentage of St. Gallen graduates are able to find employment in places like the UK, where other schools like Bocconi/IE/ESADE place so heavily there. What do you believe is the cause of this?

Snowden -

As an individual who falls into category 5/6 (currently a category 6 US citizen but am marrying a EU national soon so will technically be 5 by next year), I found your post highly insightful and useful. I will no longer be considering St. Gallen for their MBF or SIM programs; I am currently graduated and have been gaining internship/WE while applying for EU programs (matriculation Fall 2014).

I believe it would be much better for someone in my position to focus on schools like HEC Paris, IE, ESADE, Bocconi, and Warwick... and upon choosing one of those schools, I will heavily study the country's respective language (luckily, French, Spanish and Italian are way easier than German) until September in order to maximize my chances of attaining employment upon graduation. Especially considering the wide geographical disbursement of career placements at the aforementioned schools (with the exception of Warwick, perhaps) it seems that you are completely correct in your assertions about St. Gallen's limited prospects for non-Swiss, non-German speaking graduates.

Do you believe my strategy above is founded in reliable logic? Likewise, I find it interesting how small the percentage of St. Gallen graduates are able to find employment in places like the UK, where other schools like Bocconi/IE/ESADE place so heavily there. What do you believe is the cause of this?

Interesting thread Snowden, nice to know your opinions

I'm a British student and I'm considering applying to St.Gallen as one of my choices. If i had business level of German what do you think my chances of landing a job in Zurich would be? Is it that the companies in Switzerland are more biased to hiring native speakers? Do you think this degree holds any weight in London at all?

Infact i'm interested to know how many UK students or American students have you met while at St.Gallen?

Snowden, hast du eine Arbeit in der Schweiz gefunden ?

Hi Friends,

This is the information promised in my previous posts. Let me give the highlights. In case there are very specific scenarios I will answer them to the best of my knowledge. So here it goes:

1] ALL non-swiss, no matter who they are , need a work permit to work in switzerland.

2] Permits are essentially of type L, B, C there are several minor types for complex scenarios but mostly for students these are the ones that matter

3] L is for upto 2 years , B can be longer than 2 years, C is like a PR.( all permit applications are initiated by recruiter and not employees)

4] EU nationals can get type B/L on application with minimal paperwork within 2 weeks. Recruiters have to show that the position that is filled by these EU nationals is for a skill not available in Switzerland

5] Non EU can apply with loads of paper work ( non EU includes Canada and USA). and if all is well then within 4 weeks type B/L should be in.Recruiters have to show that the position that is filled by these non EU nationals is for a skill not available in Switzerland and the rest of Europe!!!

6] EU can get type C if they stay for 5 years in switzerland,for non eu its 10 years. with no breaks.

Sounds rosy for Eu citizens but well its no quite.

7] there are no unlimited work permits available. There are quotas decided by federal government released every quarter and then allocated to each canton individually. Zurich has the highest Appenzell the lowest.
case year 2012 - by October 2012 type b permits were over and no new ones were released. It is all related to the political climate


Finally if non-eu national wants to do internship for 6 months in switzerland and the course does not have it as being mandatory( IN MBF internship is not mandatory)
then the non-eu national cannot do it, it is not allowed which means non-eu nationals start with an extreme extreme disadvantage and discriminatory labor practises
right from student times.

this explains also my data about 50% internships in MBF
also the placement record ..the claim 100% placed is not simply true, atleast cannot be taken at face value...

-Snowden

Hey Snowden! Appreciate your effort to paint a realistic picture.
What about the regulations which give easier access for non-EU graduates from swiss universities? Can't post the link but I copied the Article in question here!
Art. 21 Vorrang
1 Ausländerinnen und Ausländer können zur Ausübung einer Erwerbstätigkeit nur zugelassen werden, wenn nachgewiesen wird, dass keine dafür geeigneten inländischen Arbeitnehmerinnen und Arbeitnehmer oder Angehörige von Staaten, mit denen ein Freizügigkeitsabkommen abgeschlossen wurde, gefunden werden können.
2 Als inländische Arbeitnehmerinnen und Arbeitnehmer gelten:
a.Schweizerinnen und Schweizer;
b.Personen mit einer Niederlassungsbewilligung;
c.Personen mit einer Aufenthaltsbewilligung, die zur Ausübung einer Erwerbstätigkeit berechtigt.
3 Ausländerinnen und Ausländer mit Schweizer Hochschulabschluss können in Abweichung von Absatz 1 zugelassen werden, wenn ihre Erwerbstätigkeit von hohem wissenschaftlichem oder wirtschaftlichem Interesse ist. Sie werden für eine Dauer von sechs Monaten nach dem Abschluss ihrer Aus- oder Weiterbildung in der Schweiz vorläufig zugelassen, um eine entsprechende Erwerbstätigkeit zu finden.1


Roughly translates into something like this : Provided the job has high economic or scientific value, firms don't need the labor market test to hire non-EU graduates from Swiss Universities. Please correct me if Im wrong!
Your take on this?

this is right. I confirm that in the chat i had with the law firm, they did mention that if you have a degree(z.b. masters) from swiss universities, then, pan-european labour tests dont apply, but pan-swiss tests still applies. the clause about 'economic and scientific' is added to prevent opportunistic migrants from countries like pakistan , bangladisch,turkey,indonesia etc join in private hotel management institutes just to earn a degree and compete in non-related fields in the open job market.

returning to the focus of the topic i.e. HSG this clause does not change the scenario, because you dont get a degree unless you graduate, you dont graduate unless you submit the thesis. by the time you submit the thesis you are already in your home country. so any opportunity you search for would be conditional gaurantee given by you to the prospective employer about your graduation which in most cases would not be bought by them

-Snowden

I interpreted the article on its face value, as in, non-EU grads are exempt from the labor market test - equal footing with regards to Swiss except for the fact that cap on quotas still holds, and that the work permit still has to be granted?!
Again, "economic value" is pretty vague, but I'm guessing it's x times the average national or regional salary (as in some other EU countries- 1.5 times the average salary)? Considering HSG's claim of the mean annual salary after graduation, I'm hoping this part is rendered irrelevant!
Also doesn't the clause, as well as the work permit checklist from HSG's website, specify that non-EU grads can stay up to 6 months after graduation for the sole purpose of 'job searching'?
Thanks again for your detailes responses!

Nope not on equal footing with the Swiss but with rest of Europe. But this has to be taken with a bag of salt. Equal footing in the sense its only on paper. Since workpermits are rationed it is no longer a free job market. the quotas in place make sure only a few make through.
Economic value as you rightly said is vague and is a reason for rejection based on a biased selection/rejection criteria, any body who knows basic contract law knows this sham.

So there are three things here and they are disjoint. you are making an error of seeing it as one and the same.
1] Eligibility to participate in the job market through preferential treatment by virtue of your degree
2] Work permit quotas
3] HSG reports of aggregate information of the central tendency of the salary levels.

so for example if 1 applies it does not mean a non-eu citizen becomes an eu citizen or treated similarly when it comes to the issue of work-permit.
the point is all the recruiters are well aware of this and wont take the additional costs/risks as obviously they are risk averse.

Finally to complete your degree you stay here for 1.5 years and have access to 100 companies(i am not exaggerating, check banking days,talent days and consulting days etc twice, right on campus. If you cannot get anything out of this ( which is more likely than not depending on which category you belong to) additional 6 months is simply a donation to the Swiss welfare system from your end whose only outcome is better cheese which one might not be able to afford because it is ridiculously overpriced!

-Snowden

Hello everyone,

I am a student from Croatia which became a member of the European Union this year (2013), but apperently Swiss government still sees it as a non-EU country. As I'd like to study at the University of St. Gallen I am not sure about my employment prospects as a citizen of Croatia. Also, I am concerned about opportunities for doing internships during university time which is very important for me, as I'd like to work in investment banking where internships are crucial for landing a job. I speek Croatian and English fluently, and right now I live in Germany where I study German, and by the September of 2014 I will probably hold a C1 level of German language.

With all this in sight, could anyone from you who are familiar with St. Gallen situation tell me what do you think about my chances for getting a job and internship in Switzerland?

Other business schools I will apply to are Bocconi and WHU, but I am looking at HSG as my first choice.

And also, I'd like to thank snowden and the rest of you who made an effort to share useful information and insights.

Thank you