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Re: Sviatovin is a medieval Moringian text whose author and exact date of [#permalink]
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varotkorn wrote:
VeritasKarishma wrote:
(B) the author of Sviatovin intended it to provide as accurate a report about Prince Sviatov's exploits as possible
This option talks about accuracy of Sviatov's exploits (say, the wars he fought etc). It reveals nothing about the time when these exploits were written.

Dear VeritasKarishma,

Why does the "accuracy of Sviatov's exploits" not include the timing of those exploits?


The argument clearly states "... the events in the life of Prince Sviatov that the text describes occurred in 1165"

So we KNOW that it was written in 1165 or later. The point to consider is whether it was written between 1165 and 1167. The end point of this range is under dispute. The conclusion claims that it was written in or before 1167 because his father is identified as living in it.



varotkorn wrote:
According to the passage:
Quote:
the events in the life of Prince Sviatov that the text describes occurred in 1165

Let's say the exploits or "the events in the life of Prince Sviatov" were about wars he fought. IMO, the details of the exploits should include the time when the wars and any other events were taking place. If the timing of the wars were not accurate (let's say it was in 1155 instead of 1165), how can we estimate when the text was written?

My confusion is that Choice C. concerns the end point. Choice B. also concerns the starting point.
Do we have to assume that the text correctly describes the timing of events or exploits?


"Accuracy of exploits" means exploits happened the way they are described. This is how the war was fought, this is how the attack happened etc. We are given that they happened in 1165 (premise to be taken as true). But the exploits do not help us get the 1167 date.
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Sviatovin is a medieval Moringian text whose author and exact date of [#permalink]
VeritasKarishma wrote:
varotkorn wrote:
Dear AjiteshArun DmitryFarber VeritasKarishma IanStewart MartyTargetTestPrep GMATNinja GMATNinjaTwo VeritasPrepBrian GMATGuruNY,

Q1. What does "composition" in the correct choice C. actually mean?

When I solved this question I thought it meant the list of members in Sviatov's family.
We don't care if diagram lacks his mother/brother/sister/daughter/nephew/niece/cousin/wife/grandparents...

We only care about his father.
So, I think we don't need to know the composition of his family at all.

Since assumption is what is necessary to be true and the accuracy of the whole composition is not at all necessary (ONLY his father is necessary), why is choice C. correct then?

Q2. Why is choice B. wrong? (i'm one of 13% who picked B.!)

If the report of Sviatonv's exploits is not accurate, the events in the life of Prince Sviatov that the text describes may NOT occur in 1165. So Sviatovin may be written either before or after 1165 onwards. The staring point of the possible range is therefore blurred.


"Family composition" means "who is currently in the family". So if his father were not alive, it would not show him. When we say that the test was written no later than 1167, we are assuming that the picture showed who is currently alive in his family i.e. it is an accurate depiction of his family composition at the time of making.

(B) the author of Sviatovin intended it to provide as accurate a report about Prince Sviatov's exploits as possible
This option talks about accuracy of Sviatov's exploits (say, the wars he fought etc). It reveals nothing about the time when these exploits were written.


Hi VeritasKarishma - Thank you for everything !

Followup on C

On C , it seems like you are assuming that an inaccurate family composition will ALWAYS mean an in-accurate portrayal of the father in every inaccurate family composition scenario.

It's quite possible that a family composition is INACCURATE but has portrayed the father accurately (perhaps the INACCURATE family composition has forgotten the mother,grandmother,nephew, 2nd cousin... but kept the father)

Thus its still possible to have an INACCURATE family composition and still have the father portrayed accurately in this INACCURATE family composition.

Attached is an example of the family tree i think about when i hear the word family composition
Attachments

File comment: Family tree = Family composition
Capture.JPG
Capture.JPG [ 39.69 KiB | Viewed 3611 times ]

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Re: Sviatovin is a medieval Moringian text whose author and exact date of [#permalink]
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jabhatta2 wrote:
VeritasKarishma wrote:
varotkorn wrote:
Dear AjiteshArun DmitryFarber VeritasKarishma IanStewart MartyTargetTestPrep GMATNinja GMATNinjaTwo VeritasPrepBrian GMATGuruNY,

Q1. What does "composition" in the correct choice C. actually mean?

When I solved this question I thought it meant the list of members in Sviatov's family.
We don't care if diagram lacks his mother/brother/sister/daughter/nephew/niece/cousin/wife/grandparents...

We only care about his father.
So, I think we don't need to know the composition of his family at all.

Since assumption is what is necessary to be true and the accuracy of the whole composition is not at all necessary (ONLY his father is necessary), why is choice C. correct then?

Q2. Why is choice B. wrong? (i'm one of 13% who picked B.!)

If the report of Sviatonv's exploits is not accurate, the events in the life of Prince Sviatov that the text describes may NOT occur in 1165. So Sviatovin may be written either before or after 1165 onwards. The staring point of the possible range is therefore blurred.


"Family composition" means "who is currently in the family". So if his father were not alive, it would not show him. When we say that the test was written no later than 1167, we are assuming that the picture showed who is currently alive in his family i.e. it is an accurate depiction of his family composition at the time of making.

(B) the author of Sviatovin intended it to provide as accurate a report about Prince Sviatov's exploits as possible
This option talks about accuracy of Sviatov's exploits (say, the wars he fought etc). It reveals nothing about the time when these exploits were written.


Hi VeritasKarishma - Thank you for everything !

Followup on C

On C , it seems like you are assuming that an inaccurate family composition will ALWAYS mean an in-accurate portrayal of the father in every inaccurate family composition scenario.

It's quite possible that a family composition is INACCURATE but has portrayed the father accurately (perhaps the INACCURATE family composition has forgotten the mother,grandmother,nephew, 2nd cousin... but kept the father)

Thus its still possible to have an INACCURATE family composition and still have the father portrayed accurately in this INACCURATE family composition.

Attached is an example of the family tree i think about when i hear the word family composition


The argument says that since the text mentions the father as alive, he was alive at that time.

What will be a rebuttal?
You are assuming that the diagram represents the family accurately. The diagram could have inaccuracies.
That is all (C) says.

You are trying to negate (C) and getting lost on it. That is why I advise people to not use negation since it often leads to confusion until and unless one is adept at using it.

Negate the assumption and include it with your premises:

- In a diagram in Sviatovin, the father is shown as living.
- The diagram has inaccuracies.

Can I now conclude that the father must be living at that time so Sviatovin was written between 1165 and 1167?
I cannot conclude this. I am given that the diagram has inaccuracies.
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Sviatovin is a medieval Moringian text whose author and exact date of [#permalink]
H GMATNinja @e-gmat

On C , it seems like you are assuming that an inaccurate family composition will ALWAYS mean an in-accurate portrayal of the father specifically in every inaccurate family composition scenario.

It's quite possible that a family composition is INACCURATE but has portrayed the father accurately (perhaps the INACCURATE family composition has forgotten the mother,grandmother,nephew, 2nd cousin... but kept the father)

Thus its still possible to have an INACCURATE family composition and still have the father portrayed accurately in this INACCURATE family composition.

Attached is a example family tree where my Dad is listed accurately BUT my grandparents are not listed accurately.
Attachments

Family tree.JPG
Family tree.JPG [ 21.33 KiB | Viewed 2453 times ]

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Re: Sviatovin is a medieval Moringian text whose author and exact date of [#permalink]
hi VeritasKarishma nightblade354 carouselambra

Actually I marked A as the answer because I interpreted meaning of A as:
Quote:
(A) the life of Prince Sviatov is not the subject of any other medieval Moringian texts


Life Of Prince Sviatov is not a fictious . it was not the subject of other texts. It means it was really a true person.
I don't know why such interpretation came in mind. If the meaning of A would have been interpreted as what I have mentioned, A needs to have such words as story, fiction etc. , Am i right?
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mSKR wrote:
hi VeritasKarishma nightblade354 carouselambra

Actually I marked A as the answer because I interpreted meaning of A as:
Quote:
(A) the life of Prince Sviatov is not the subject of any other medieval Moringian texts


Life Of Prince Sviatov is not a fictious . it was not the subject of other texts. It means it was really a true person.
I don't know why such interpretation came in mind. If the meaning of A would have been interpreted as what I have mentioned, A needs to have such words as story, fiction etc. , Am i right?


The argument clearly tells you that it is not a story.

...the events in the life of Prince Sviatov that the text describes occurred in 1165, and in the diagram of Sviatov's family that accompanies the text his father, who died in 1167, is identified as still living...

The events occurred in 1165. His father died in 1167. If someone tells you this, you know that they are talking about real life.
So option (A) cannot be interpreted the way you did.
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jabhatta2 wrote:
H GMATNinja @e-gmat

On C , it seems like you are assuming that an inaccurate family composition will ALWAYS mean an in-accurate portrayal of the father specifically in every inaccurate family composition scenario.

It's quite possible that a family composition is INACCURATE but has portrayed the father accurately (perhaps the INACCURATE family composition has forgotten the mother,grandmother,nephew, 2nd cousin... but kept the father)

Thus its still possible to have an INACCURATE family composition and still have the father portrayed accurately in this INACCURATE family composition.

Attached is a example family tree where my Dad is listed accurately BUT my grandparents are not listed accurately.

This question is written a bit differently than most GMAT assumption questions, so you have to be very careful in your approach.

Consider this alternate example:

    "Simone Biles is going to compete in the 2021 Olympics. During the 2016 Olympics, she won 5 medals. She will certainly earn at least one medal in the 2021 Olympics, assuming that she earns as many medals as she did in the 2016 Olympics."

Now, you may see something strange here. My conclusion is that Simone "will certainly earn at least one medal in the 2021 Olympics." My assumption goes way beyond that: I'm assuming that "she earns as many medals (i.e., 5 medals) as she did in the 2016 Olympics."

Now, I don't absolutely NEED to assume that Simone will earn 5 medals to conclude that she will certainly earn at least one medal.

But, if I assume that she earns 5 medals, then I know FOR A FACT that she will earn at least one medal.

In other words, by making my assumption a bit excessive, I've ENSURED that my conclusion follows from my evidence and assumption. (If you like a bit of jargon, this would be a "sufficient" assumption. By contrast, most GMAT questions ask us to find a "necessary" assumption.)

Going back to the official question: The author concludes that "Sviatovin must have been written between 1165 and 1167." One piece of evidence presented is that "in the diagram of Sviatov's family that accompanies the text his father, who died in 1167, is identified as still living."

If you assume that "the diagram accurately represents the composition of Sviatov's family at the time Sviatovin was written," then you KNOW that Sviatovin was written before the father's death in 1167.

Sure, this info is a bit more than you need -- you also know that the grandparents, aunts, uncles, and other family members are accurately represented. But that's not a problem in this question, because we're not looking for a narrow assumption that we really NEED. Instead, we're looking for an assumption that GUARANTEES that the author's conclusion follows from the evidence presented.

(C) does does the trick, and is the correct answer to this question.

I hope that helps!
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Re: Sviatovin is a medieval Moringian text whose author and exact date of [#permalink]
(B) the author of Sviatovin intended it to provide as accurate a report about Prince Sviatov's exploits as possible

I eliminated this option because of the word 'intended'. The main argument here is to ensure that the information (for ex -diagram) provided in the question stem is as accurate as it can be. If it is not then my assumption that the text was written between 1165-67 falls.

In this option, if we look closely, it says the author 'intended' - Does this mean that the author actually provides the most accurate report? - Well we do not know for sure. He/She may/may not have. I would pick this option only if there was no better alternative provided to me.

Please can someone validate/help me understand if my reasoning above is accurate? GMATNinja CrackVerbal Brent
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avigutman AnthonyRitz
i am unable to eliminate (B)

Quote:
Conclusion of argument : Sviatovin was written between 1165 (inclusive) and 1167 (inclusive)

Premise 1 for 1165 : Text in Sviatovin is describing events in the life of Prince Sviatov
Premise 2 for 1165 : We, today, know that these events being described about the life of Prince Sviatov DID OCCUR in 1165. (This is per our knowledge TODAY - we can map the events described to the 1165)

Premise 1 for 1167 : Text in Sviatovin is describing Sviatov's father as alive
Premise 2 for 1167 : We, today, know that Sviatov's father died in 1167.


Plenty of gaps if you ask me

Quote:
  • (i) Was the book actaully written contemporaneously when the Sviatovin and his father were still alive or is the book perhaps a biography written after Sviatovin and his father, both deceased ?
  • (ii) Was the book written to describe facts or was the book intended to be a folk tale / legends on Sviatovin ?
  • (iii) If the book was written to describe facts on Sviatovin , are there any facts intentionally left out or were there any factual mistakes in the book ?


So, these were the gaps floating in my mind.

Given that - i thought (B) touched on Gap (ii)

If the author had no intention to provide accurate reports on Sviatovin’s exploits – then the book for all we know is a legends story regarding Sviatovin..We cant trust anything that is written in the book (be it the events of Sviatovin or the fact that Sviatovin's dad was even alive when this book was written)

Given the author had no intention to write down an accurate portrayal of events, we cant MAP any events of Sviatovin to 1165 specifically.

That break's down the first half of the argument (i.e. the book was written AFTER 1165)

Thus i chose (B)

thoughts ?
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jabhatta2 wrote:
  • (i) Was the book actaully written contemporaneously when the Sviatovin and his father were still alive or is the book perhaps a biography written after Sviatovin and his father, both deceased ?

But the father was still alive, according to the text, when the text was written. Are you suggesting that the “biography” may have claimed that the father was still alive when in fact he wasn’t? Or that the text writer perhaps hadn’t yet heard about the father’s death?
jabhatta2 wrote:
  • (ii) Was the book written to describe facts or was the book intended to be a folk tale / legends on Sviatovin ?
  • (iii) If the book was written to describe facts on Sviatovin , are there any facts intentionally left out or were there any factual mistakes in the book ?

These last two seem similar to one another. They seem to go against the premise, don’t you think? We know that the events described in the text did in fact happen, jabhatta2

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avigutman wrote:
jabhatta2 wrote:
  • (i) Was the book actaully written contemporaneously when the Sviatovin and his father were still alive or is the book perhaps a biography written after Sviatovin and his father, both deceased ?

But the father was still alive, according to the text, when the text was written.Are you suggesting that the “biography” may have claimed that the father was still alive when in fact he wasn’t? Or that the text writer perhaps hadn’t yet heard about the father’s death?


Regarding the yellow, so what ? If i can explain with an analogy : Instead of Prince Sviatov, lets say this text/book is about Churchill instead (Can be anyone)

take this one for example - Churchill Book

-- this biography talks about the events sorrounding churchill in 1930's
-- In this biography, Churchill's dad [Randolph Henry Churchill] is listed as being alive in the 1930's
-- We know Churchill's dad [Randolph Henry Churchill] died in 1942
-- All the events mentioned in this book that happened to Churchill in the 1930's we know are true (other historians can be cross-checked)

Can we conclude -- this BOOK ITSELF, written by the author, was written in the 1930's ?

No - the book was written in 2012.
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Re: Sviatovin is a medieval Moringian text whose author and exact date of [#permalink]
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jabhatta2 wrote:
In this biography, Churchill's dad [Randolph Henry Churchill] is listed as being alive in the 1930's

Is the above the same as the below, jabhatta2?
Quote:
in the diagram of Sviatov's family that accompanies the text his father, who died in 1167, is identified as still living.
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kop18 wrote:
(B) the author of Sviatovin intended it to provide as accurate a report about Prince Sviatov's exploits as possible

I eliminated this option because of the word 'intended'. The main argument here is to ensure that the information (for ex -diagram) provided in the question stem is as accurate as it can be. If it is not then my assumption that the text was written between 1165-67 falls.

In this option, if we look closely, it says the author 'intended' - Does this mean that the author actually provides the most accurate report? - Well we do not know for sure. He/She may/may not have. I would pick this option only if there was no better alternative provided to me.

Please can someone validate/help me understand if my reasoning above is accurate? GMATNinja CrackVerbal Brent


Hi kop18

Let's break this down!

The author concludes that Sviatovin must have been written between 1165 and 1167. We have to find out what he assumed when he drew this conclusion.

Option B talks of the author’s intention to accurately report Prince Sviatov's exploits. How will this intention – whether he finally produced an accurate report or not – explain why the argument's author is saying that Sviatovin must have been written between 1165 and 1167? It doesn’t make sense logically.

Let me negate Option B: The author of Sviatovin DID NOT INTEND it to provide as accurate a report about Prince Sviatov's exploits as possible.

Even if he didn’t intend to accurately report Prince Sviatov's exploits, the author could still conclude that Sviatovin must have been written between 1165 and 1167. The negation does nothing to the conclusion.

Let's look at the data given to us. The argument tells us that Prince Sviatov’s father died in 1167, but while describing the events that took place in 1165, the father was still alive. Had the book been written after 1167, the writer would have pointed out that the father died in 1167. But since the diagram says that the father was still alive, the book must surely have been written before 1167.

All this, of course, is assuming that the information that has been provided in the book is accurate. I mean, no one knows who the author is or even when this ancient text was composed, right?

This is exactly what Option C is saying.

Let me negate Option C: The diagram DOES NOT accurately represent the composition of Sviatov's family at the time Sviatovin was written.

If the diagram is not accurate, how can the author conclude that Sviatovin must have been written between 1165 and 1167? He can’t because this conclusion is dependent on the accuracy of the diagram.

Nitha Jay
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Sviatovin is a medieval Moringian text whose author and exact date of [#permalink]
avigutman wrote:
jabhatta2 wrote:
In this biography, Churchill's dad [Randolph Henry Churchill] is listed as being alive in the 1930's

Is the above the same as the below, jabhatta2?
Quote:
in the diagram of Sviatov's family that accompanies the text his father, who died in 1167, is identified as still living.


avigutman - i dont see any meaningful difference.

The biography (like most biographies) is written in a manner in which the book describes a day in the life of Winston Churchill. So Churchill attended cabinet meeting on Jan 1st 1935. Churchill spoke in parliament on Jan 2nd 1935. Then Churchill visisted his parents the next day on Jan 3rd 1935....

So obviously this biography, will have Churchill's father [Randolph Henry Churchill]
- identified as still living (remember - Randolf Churchill died in 1942 only)
and/or
- listed as being alive

The biography, focussing on the 1930's, will have to identify / list / describe Churchill's father as still alive (because Churchill's father dies in 1942 only)

But the biography was written in 2012.

Thats how I thought about it at-least
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jabhatta2 wrote:
The biography (like most biographies) is written in a manner in which the book describes a day in the life of Winston Churchill.
The biography, focussing on the 1930's, will have to identify / list / describe Churchill's father as still alive (because Churchill's father dies in 1942 only)

Just to confirm, jabhatta2: you are no longer arguing for answer choice (B), correct? In fact, the above points to answer choice (C) more than anything else.
To avoid an argument regarding how biographies are supposed to be written, jabhatta2, let's remember that we're talking about a diagram that accompanies a text. Perhaps "the diagram of Sviatov's family that accompanies the text" is outdated, misinformed, or inaccurate (that's what answer choice (C) suggests). But if I attach a diagram of the composition of the British royal family to a text that I'm writing today (Sep 20, 2022), and in that diagram I have Queen Elizabeth II listed as still alive, that diagram does NOT accurately represents the composition of the British royal family at the time that my text was written (Sep 20, 2022).
Please let me know whether this helps clarify, jabhatta2!
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jabhatta2 wrote:
avigutman AnthonyRitz
i am unable to eliminate (B)

There are already good replies here, so I'll just weigh in on one point about B:

This answer says that

Quote:
the author of Sviatovin intended it to provide as accurate a report about Prince Sviatov's exploits as possible

[emphasis added]

This seems off-point about the question of Sviatov's family tree. Like, even if you weren't trying to accurately report Sviatov's exploits, does that give us any particular reason to think you'd get the family tree wrong? That you'd report the father as alive when he was actually dead, or vice versa? I don't think it's self-evident, at the very least. You end up speculating. And that makes B a poor answer.

Originally posted by AnthonyRitz on 20 Sep 2022, 08:02.
Last edited by AnthonyRitz on 20 Sep 2022, 10:29, edited 2 times in total.
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Sviatovin is a medieval Moringian text whose author and exact date of [#permalink]
avigutman wrote:
jabhatta2 wrote:
The biography (like most biographies) is written in a manner in which the book describes a day in the life of Winston Churchill.
The biography, focussing on the 1930's, will have to identify / list / describe Churchill's father as still alive (because Churchill's father dies in 1942 only)

Just to confirm, jabhatta2: you are no longer arguing for answer choice (B), correct? In fact, the above points to answer choice (C) more than anything else.
To avoid an argument regarding how biographies are supposed to be written, jabhatta2, let's remember that we're talking about a diagram that accompanies a text. Perhaps "the diagram of Sviatov's family that accompanies the text" is outdated, misinformed, or inaccurate (that's what answer choice (C) suggests). But if I attach a diagram of the composition of the British royal family to a text that I'm writing today (Sep 20, 2022), and in that diagram I have Queen Elizabeth II listed as still alive, that diagram does NOT accurately represents the composition of the British royal family at the time that my text was written (Sep 20, 2022).
Please let me know whether this helps clarify, jabhatta2!


Thank avigutman

The queen analogy really helped

Just one followup before I give my thoughts.. The phrase

Quote:
.........However, the events in the life of Prince Sviatov that the text describes occurred in 1165.


Who is proscribing the year 1165?

Is the text itself proscribing that the events (described in the text) OCCURED in 1165
OR
Is the text just describing events. Then we historians LATER ON are MAPPING those events to the year 1165 ?

Who is doing this 'proscribing' of 1165 ?

Can we say or we can't say ?

I thought it was the LATTER (based on SC logic)

----------------------------------------------

I ask because When it comes to (B) – I think the only way to eliminate (B) is to focus on the ‘jump’ between exploits and events

If (B – varation) had said this, I argue (B-variant) would be an assumption

Quote:
(B-variant) the author of Sviatovin intended it to provide as accurate a report about Prince Sviatov's events as possible


If (B-variant) was given, then we cant say if the book was written AFTER 1165 specifically
GMAT Club Bot
Sviatovin is a medieval Moringian text whose author and exact date of [#permalink]
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