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Re: Until 1868 and Disraeli, Great Britain had no prime ministers not comi [#permalink]
Expert Reply
Soham68 wrote:
In option C, I saw few mentioned Modifier Error since who is modifying UK instead of PMs. Is it correct?

Hi Soham68, who can only modify persons. So, who cannot modify UK.

Quote:
From my point of view, Who is modifying PMs because "IN UK" acts as a modifier for PMs. Can anyone clarify this point?

There is no rule that who cannot refer to something in modifier. For example, following is a correct sentence:

Peter is a friend of Jack, who is a famous author.

Here, who is referring to Jack (it does not matter that of Jack is a modifier of friend).

p.s. Our book EducationAisle Sentence Correction Nirvana discusses this aspect of "relative pronouns". Have attached the corresponding section of the book, for your reference.
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Re: Until 1868 and Disraeli, Great Britain had no prime ministers not comi [#permalink]
Hi E-gmat,

Could you please let me know the function of 'that' in option D. Is it acting as a connector or as a modifier?
I felt 'that' is not correct in option D and should have been 'when'.
'It was not until 1868 when Great Britain.....'
Please help me clear my doubt

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Re: Until 1868 and Disraeli, Great Britain had no prime ministers not comi [#permalink]
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Good discussion. Our book EducationAisle Sentence Correction Nirvana discusses the various "avatars" of “that”. Have attached the corresponding section of the book, for your reference.
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Re: Until 1868 and Disraeli, Great Britain had no prime ministers not comi [#permalink]
egmat GMATNinja EMPOWERgmatVerbal

Expert help needed - can you explain why the use of past perfect "Great Britain had had " is incorrect in option B? I thought that the use of past perfect here is correct since a sequence of events is established by using "until 1868". In other words, the first event in the sequence is "Great Britain had had no prime ministers" and the second event in the sequence is the year 1868. Isn't this correct usage?

Thanks in advance!
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Re: Until 1868 and Disraeli, Great Britain had no prime ministers not comi [#permalink]
AjiteshArun wrote:
jlo1234 wrote:
egmat GMATNinja EMPOWERgmatVerbal

Expert help needed - can you explain why the use of past perfect "Great Britain had had " is incorrect in option B? I thought that the use of past perfect here is correct since a sequence of events is established by using "until 1868". In other words, the first event in the sequence is "Great Britain had had no prime ministers" and the second event in the sequence is the year 1868. Isn't this correct usage?

Thanks in advance!

Hi jlo1234,

Is there a reason you're looking specifically at the usage of the past perfect in option B? I ask because the had had itself is not a problem (it isn't an absolute error). Or, to put it more directly, it is possible to use the past perfect with until. Whether we should is another matter though, as the simple past does the job just as well (describing a situation that existed till a specific point in time in the past).


Thank you so much for clarifying - I was just trying to find out all the errors in each choice to make sure I understand the question.
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Until 1868 and Disraeli, Great Britain had no prime ministers not comi [#permalink]
hello experts! ANDREW MartyTargetTestPrep GMATNinja

wow, what is this?
first the introduction part is confusing and later "no" and "not" are, leading to a puzzle.
I tried to solve it but when I saw the clock, it was already 5 minutes.
(I eliminated A and B based on "Disraeli and 1868" are in list, which is illogical, time and a name". hard to know what is Disraeli?)
chose C as couldn't comprehend D and E.

Can you please help me, how to approach this one considering the time limit.
please help me to eliminate all choices.
Thanks
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Re: Until 1868 and Disraeli, Great Britain had no prime ministers not comi [#permalink]
AndrewN wrote:
dcoolguy wrote:
hello experts! ANDREW MartyTargetTestPrep GMATNinja

wow, what is this?
first the introduction part is confusing and later "no" and "not" are, leading to a puzzle.
I tried to solve it but when I saw the clock, it was already 5 minutes.
(I eliminated A and B based on "Disraeli and 1868" are in list, which is illogical, time and a name". hard to know what is Disraeli?)
chose C as couldn't comprehend D and E.

Can you please help me, how to approach this one considering the time limit.
please help me to eliminate all choices.
Thanks

Hello, dcoolguy. I think you meant to tag me as AndrewN. (I am not sure who this other Andrew may be.) This question is undoubtedly easier for a native speaker. Both times I have laid eyes on it, I have spent around 35 seconds getting to the correct answer. I will trace my thought process to help with your query.

Quote:
Until 1868 and Disraeli, Great Britain had no prime ministers not coming from a landed family.

A. Until 1868 and Disraeli, Great Britain had no prime ministers not coming
B. Until 1868 and Disraeli, Great Britain had had no prime ministers who have not come
C. Until Disraeli in 1868, there were no prime ministers in Great Britain who have not come
D. It was not until 1868 that Great Britain had a prime minister - Disraeli - who did not come
E. It was only in 1868 and Disraeli that Great Britain had one of its prime ministers not coming

Although I had my doubts about until Disraeli (until a person?), I did not start out by crossing off answer choices (A) through (C). Rather, I glanced at the verb tense at the end of (B) and (C) and made two quick eliminations: until 1868 and have come do not match up. The present perfect tense is improperly used.

Quote:
B. Until 1868 and Disraeli, Great Britain had had no prime ministers who have not come
C. Until Disraeli in 1868, there were no prime ministers in Great Britain who have not come

With 40 percent of the answer choices gone, I looked to separate answer choices (D) and (E) as the only two that started with it. Compare them side by side:

Quote:
D. It was not until 1868 that Great Britain had a prime minister - Disraeli - who did not come
E. It was only in 1868 and Disraeli that Great Britain had one of its prime ministers not coming

The former pairs until with a year only, and the verbs are active: had a prime minister and did not come; the latter removes until and replaces it with only, and then we get a compound only in 1868 and [in] Disraeli. I suppose that could work, although it takes more effort to evaluate. Strike two comes in the change from the direct had a prime minister in (D) to had one of its prime ministers in (E). Now, we have gone from a statement on one person to a consideration of one person among many, and we also have to deal with the pronoun itsGreat Britain had one of [Great Britain's] prime ministers is poorly phrased, to say the least. Finally, the earlier verb form has morphed into an adjective in coming, and although I would not automatically disfavor an adjective for its verb equivalent, in this case, I can appreciate that I would only have more work to do (to pin the modifier to the noun). All things considered, it should be clear that (E) is worse than (D). With two options left, we can examine (A) and (D) side by side:

Quote:
A. Until 1868 and Disraeli, Great Britain had no prime ministers not coming
D. It was not until 1868 that Great Britain had a prime minister - Disraeli - who did not come

The original sentence, in addition to until Disraeli, tells us what Great Britain did not have, refers to multiple PMs, and presents the same adjective we saw in (E) in coming; meanwhile, answer choice (D) splits the year and the name, tells us what Great Britain did have in a single PM, and uses an easy-to-follow verb to express the vital meaning. Since there are a few doubts in (A) against none in (D), the latter is the safer option.

You do not have to find hard evidence to use against any given iteration of the sentence, but if you can find some reason to make a clear elimination, so much the better. When you can work with just what is left, the task becomes simpler, and you start to pit doubts against non-doubts. That is the best way I can think to describe my own approach to SC.

Thank you for thinking to ask.

- Andrew


Thank you for such a detailed explanation.

Yes I ment you. I still don't know how to use this platform effectively. I couldn't find your exact user name. I just remembered your name.
now I know its- AndrewN :D

so, we can't just eliminate on the basis of "Disraeli and 1868", because even by context its confusing for a reader to know what Disraeli is, and say, even if we know, how can a time and a name be on the same list?
Thanks
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Re: Until 1868 and Disraeli, Great Britain had no prime ministers not comi [#permalink]
AjiteshArun Can you please explain why option D is correct and what is the intended meaning of the sentence.
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Re: Until 1868 and Disraeli, Great Britain had no prime ministers not comi [#permalink]
dear avigutman,
AndrewN,
MartyTargetTestPrep ,

do you guys think it should be "there was no prime ministers " in C rather than "there were..."?
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Re: Until 1868 and Disraeli, Great Britain had no prime ministers not comi [#permalink]
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