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Re: Based on records from ancient Athens, each year young Athenian women [#permalink]
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Brian123 wrote:
gothamchandra wrote:
GMATNinja

Firstly, massive appreciation and gratitude for your detailed explanations and for the videos on YouTube.

Coming to this question, I understand how A,B, C and E are wrong. However it was a tough choice because I thought D has a flaw too. How does the second element refer to something that is not part of the stem but is the part of the first parallel element (the second refers to "this robe")?

Is the reason D is correct because that's the best available option? Ideally, wouldn't that be wrong too?

hey gothamchandra, D is completely fine. I doubt we'd ever come across a correct choice that is actually "wrong". Of course their could be better ways to state the sentence, but the correct choice would never be wrong IMO.

D shows the parallelism between 2 items. The list if of the things indicated by these records. The records indicate -
1. That Each young women.....
2. That this robe.....

The parallelism seems perfect to me and shows the 2 things that the records indicate. It's okay if the 2nd item on the list refers to something that is not part of the "stem". I mean there are several scenarios where the 2 items on the list would be very different and might as well be completely unrelated.

eg - I believe that the earth is flat and that Chelsea will win the premier league.
The above example is perfect in terms of parallelism and the 2 items are not even slightly related to each other.

Hope this helps! :)

Thanks Brian123 for the excellent work! Sounds spot-on to me: "The records indicate (1) that each year young Athenian women collaborated... and (2) that this robe depicted..."

gothamneedsu, I think I understand your concern: how can the second element correctly refer to the "robe" if the "robe" isn't mentioned in the stem? But there's nothing inherently wrong with that.

Consider this example: "Tim hopes (1) that he will win a brand new Bentley and (2) that the new car will impress his neighbors."

  • Both elements are grammatically parallel and match up with the stem ("Tim hopes that he will win" and "Tim hopes that the new car will impress...").
  • Now that does NOT necessarily mean that the sentence would make sense if only one element were there. Without the first element, the reader would be left wondering, "What new car?" But that's actually not a problem. Parallelism does NOT require that the sentence be perfectly logical with each element independently.

So it's actually perfectly fine for the second element to refer to something ("robe") that doesn't appear in the stem.

Similar logic applies when it comes to joining two independent clauses with a comma+conjunction. For example:

    "Tim went to the grocery store, and he ran into his chainsaw-wielding ex-girlfriend."

Without the first clause, we wouldn't know what the "he" refers to in the second clause. So sure, the second clause wouldn't make sense without the first clause, but it's still a grammatical sentence -- a complete thought with a main subject and verb.

In other words, the second clause can stand on its own grammatically. Logically? Not so much -- but that doesn't mean that it isn't an independent clause.

I hope that helps!
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Re: Based on records from ancient Athens, each year young Athenian women [#permalink]
Hey,

Can anyone please elaborate about the pronoun 'they', as we don't have any plural noun to which this pronoun can relate.

Thanks
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Re: Based on records from ancient Athens, each year young Athenian women [#permalink]
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nabeeldochki wrote:
Hey,

Can anyone please elaborate about the pronoun 'they', as we don't have any plural noun to which this pronoun can relate.

Thanks

Take another look:

Quote:
(D) Records from ancient Athens indicate that each year young Athenian women collaborated to weave a new woolen robe with which they dressed

"They" refers to the "Athenian women" here. "They" is the subject of a clause. "Athenian women" is the subject of the previous clause. Makes sense. The women made the robe they later dressed in.

The deeper question you want to ask yourself is why you missed this the first time around. Did you skim or read too fast? Fail to reread? Often, our errors are less about content knowledge than about how and why our process breaks down.

Once you identify why this happened, the next step is to make a conscious effort to change the habit and behavior that led to the error. Which is easier said than done, obviously. :)

For more on what we mean by "process" on SC, check out this video.

I hope that helps a bit!
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Re: Based on records from ancient Athens, each year young Athenian women [#permalink]
GMATNinja

Hello,

I also went for (D), but I have a small question:

Does ‘with which’ introduce a nonessential event or thing? The robe seems to be important as the end of the sentence keeps talking about it. As all of the other answer choices had obvious issues of their own, I still went ahead with (D).

Thanks for explaining, in advance.
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Re: Based on records from ancient Athens, each year young Athenian women [#permalink]
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This (bleeping) question is one of my all-time favorites, just because it features a whole bunch of grammar and usage issues that are simultaneously difficult and "learnable." Sometimes, it's really tough to get better at SC questions that test meaning, so it's satisfying when we can take a hard question like this one, and break it down methodically -- without any real need to worry about the subtleties of meaning.

We'll eventually have to deal with some funky parallelism stuff here (as featured in our YouTube webinar on parallelism and meaning), but the first thing that should catch your eye is that "-ed" modifier right at the beginning of the sentence. (More on "-ed" words here.) In this case, "based on records from ancient Athens" must be followed by something that can actually be based on records from ancient Athens. So...

Quote:
(A) Based on records from ancient Athens, each year young Athenian women collaborated to weave a new woolen robe that they used to dress

Wait, this is literally saying that "each year young Athenian women" are based on records from ancient Athens. That makes no sense at all. A conclusion or a finding or a report could be "based on records", but the women themselves certainly can't be. (A) is out.

Quote:
(B) Based on records from ancient Athens, young Athenian women had collaborated to weave a new woolen robe with which to dress

(B) has exactly the same error as (A): the young women can't be "based on records." You can eliminate (B) based on that alone.

Hopefully, the past perfect tense phrase "had collaborated" catches your eye, too. As you probably know, the action in past perfect tense has to logically precede some other "time marker" in the past -- generally, another action in simple past tense. So this particular sentence is saying that the women first "had collaborated to weave a new woolen robe"; the subsequent actions in simple past are "they used to dress a statue" and "this robe depicted scenes." I suppose that they collaborated before they used the robe to dress a statue, but I think it's awfully weird to say that they "had collaborated" first, and then the robe later "depicted scenes."

You don't really need to waste your energy on the past perfect tense in (B), but for whatever it's worth, it certainly doesn't seem right.

Quote:
(C) According to records from ancient Athens, each year young Athenian women collaborated to weave a new woolen robe that they used to dress

I think I can live with the use of "according to records from ancient Athens" in this case, even though I don't love it. I think that particular "-ing" phrase is modifying the entire clause that follows ("...young women collaborated to weave a new woolen robe..."), and I guess it's OK to say that this action is something we know "according to records from ancient Athens." I've never been totally convinced by it, but wouldn't immediately eliminate (A). (More on the GMAT's use of "-ing" words here.)

The real issue with (C) is the parallelism. And it's tricky, so bear with me here.

Whenever you're looking at parallelism, start with the parallelism "trigger" -- usually an "and" or an "or", though there are others. (The other triggers are a long story that we'll save for another day.) Then you'll always want to find the thing that follows the word "and", and then figure out what's parallel to that thing.

So in this case, we have: "and that this robe depicted scenes of a battle between Zeus, Athena's father, and giants." Something HAS to be parallel to "that this robe depicted scenes." In (C), our only option is "that they used to dress a statue." Cool, we have structural parallelism.

Trouble is, it makes no sense when you actually think about the "stem" that precedes the two parallel elements. If you want, you can think of parallelism as a list of two (or more) items, and the "stem" is the thing that precedes the first item in the list. But the stem HAS to make sense with EVERY item in the list.

If we break down (C) really carefully, we have the following:

  • Stem: "...young Athenian women collaborated to weave a new woolen robe..."
  • List item #1: "...that they used to dress a statue..."
  • List item #2 (after "and"): "...that this robe depicted scenes of a battle..."

The first item works just fine with the stem: "...women collaborated to weave a new woolen robe that they used to dress a statue..." No problem. But that "stem" also has to make sense with the second item. And in this case, it really doesn't work: "...women collaborated to weave a new woolen robe... that this robe depicted scenes of a battle..." Huh? That's absolute nonsense.

This is what tough parallelism looks like on the GMAT. You can't "hear" the parallelism error at all -- or at least I can't. But if you break the parallelism down methodically, (C) is clearly wrong.

(Does your brain hurt yet? If you prefer video, our YouTube webinar on parallelism and meaning covered this question, too.)

Quote:
(D) Records from ancient Athens indicate that each year young Athenian women collaborated to weave a new woolen robe with which they dressed

(D) cleans up the parallelism nicely! Using the same technique as in (C), we have the following:

  • Stem: "Records from ancient Athens indicate..."
  • List item #1: "...that each year young women collaborated to weave a new robe..."
  • List item #2 (after "and"): "...that this robe depicted scenes of a battle..."

That works! "Records indicate... that this robe depicted scenes of battle..." Great. Keep (D).


Quote:
(E) Records from ancient Athens indicate each year young Athenian women had collaborated to weave a new woolen robe for dressing

In (E), we still have the same past perfect tense issue that appear in (B). Plus, the parallelism is completely wrong: the trigger "and" is still followed by "that this robe depicted scenes of battle...", but there are no phrases that could possibly be parallel, since there are no subordinate clauses beginning with "that" elsewhere in the sentence.

So (E) is gone, and (D) is our winner.

And if you read this far, you deserve a cookie for surviving to the end of the longest freaking QOTD explanation I've ever written. :oops:


Hey GMATNinja, I'm a big fan of your wisdom. I have been closely following the way you approach a stem and I am glad that my line of though was parallel to that of yours.
I took 1:40 sec to get this right. I was curious as to how long it took you to solve and if it is good enough for such questions to take this long?
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Re: Based on records from ancient Athens, each year young Athenian women [#permalink]
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hadimadi wrote:
GMATNinja

Hello,

I also went for (D), but I have a small question:

Does ‘with which’ introduce a nonessential event or thing? The robe seems to be important as the end of the sentence keeps talking about it. As all of the other answer choices had obvious issues of their own, I still went ahead with (D).

Thanks for explaining, in advance.

The GMAT cares much more about the clarity of modifiers than the nuances of essential vs. nonessential modifiers -- thinking about the latter probably isn't going to help much on this test.

Is it clear what the "with which" modifier describes here? Does it make sense? Yes and yes. And since the other choices have much bigger problems, there's no need to waste any energy thinking about essential vs nonessential. The meaning of the sentence doesn't change, regardless of how we label the modifier.

I hope that helps a bit!
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Re: Based on records from ancient Athens, each year young Athenian women [#permalink]
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PGPJr wrote:
Hey GMATNinja, I'm a big fan of your wisdom. I have been closely following the way you approach a stem and I am glad that my line of though was parallel to that of yours.
I took 1:40 sec to get this right. I was curious as to how long it took you to solve and if it is good enough for such questions to take this long?

Thank you for the kind words, PGPJr!

Honestly, I'm not sure how long it took me to solve this when I first saw it. I don't remember exactly when I first encountered it, but it was well over a decade ago, and probably closer to two decades ago. I can't recall my thought process back then, but I'm pretty sure that I struggled on it -- I never learned anything about parallelism growing up, and I don't think I developed a deep understanding of parallelism until well after my first skirmish with this question. :)

Anyway, 1:40 is totally fine, since you have an average of roughly 1:48 per verbal question. I wouldn't overthink your individual question times too much -- your times will vary a bit from question to question anyway, and this one is on the harder side.

I hope that helps a bit!
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Re: Based on records from ancient Athens, each year young Athenian women [#permalink]
GMATNinja wrote:
PGPJr wrote:
Hey GMATNinja, I'm a big fan of your wisdom. I have been closely following the way you approach a stem and I am glad that my line of though was parallel to that of yours.
I took 1:40 sec to get this right. I was curious as to how long it took you to solve and if it is good enough for such questions to take this long?

Thank you for the kind words, PGPJr!

Honestly, I'm not sure how long it took me to solve this when I first saw it. I don't remember exactly when I first encountered it, but it was well over a decade ago, and probably closer to two decades ago. I can't recall my thought process back then, but I'm pretty sure that I struggled on it -- I never learned anything about parallelism growing up, and I don't think I developed a deep understanding of parallelism until well after my first skirmish with this question. :)

Anyway, 1:40 is totally fine, since you have an average of roughly 1:48 per verbal question. I wouldn't overthink your individual question times too much -- your times will vary a bit from question to question anyway, and this one is on the harder side.

I hope that helps a bit!


It did help a lot. Thank you so much GMATNinja
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Re: Based on records from ancient Athens, each year young Athenian women [#permalink]
Hello guys, my doubt is that as per parallelism, Part-II of option D states that - "Records from ancient Athens indicate that this robe depicted scenes of a battle between Zeus..."

My doubt here is what is indicated by word "this" here? Isn't it a pronoun ambiguity error?

GMATNinja ExpertsGlobal5 please help.
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Re: Based on records from ancient Athens, each year young Athenian women [#permalink]
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sourabhgx wrote:
Hello guys, my doubt is that as per parallelism, Part-II of option D states that - "Records from ancient Athens indicate that this robe depicted scenes of a battle between Zeus..."

My doubt here is what is indicated by word "this" here? Isn't it a pronoun ambiguity error?

GMATNinja ExpertsGlobal5 please help.


Hello sourabhgx,

We hope this finds you well.

To answer your query, here "this" plays the role of a demonstrative pronoun; demonstrative pronouns are used to point to which specific noun is being referred to, rather than to replace a noun entirely.

We hope this helps.
All the best!
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Re: Based on records from ancient Athens, each year young Athenian women [#permalink]
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sourabhgx wrote:
Hello guys, my doubt is that as per parallelism, Part-II of option D states that - "Records from ancient Athens indicate that this robe depicted scenes of a battle between Zeus..."

My doubt here is what is indicated by word "this" here? Isn't it a pronoun ambiguity error?

GMATNinja ExpertsGlobal5 please help.

Two points here:

1) Pronoun ambiguity is not a concrete error. (More on that in this video or this one.)

2) There's no ambiguity here! Take another example:

    The prosecutor pointed to Tim and announced, "this man is a menace to children and puppies!"

We don't have to get into the grammar weeds to understand what the sentence is saying, right? Who's the menace? This guy! The one the prosecutor is pointing at! Perfectly clear. You don't need to worry about the grammar jargon at all: "this" is something called a determiner, but who really cares?

Same deal here. What robe are we talking about? This one! The one with all the cool battle scenes. There's no other way to interpret the construction, and it makes sense, so it's fine.

The takeaway: rules have their place, but try not to be over-reliant on them. When in doubt, default to asking yourself whether the option in question makes sense. If it does, hang on to it. Simple as that.

I hope that helps!
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Re: Based on records from ancient Athens, each year young Athenian women [#permalink]
ExpertsGlobal5 wrote:
Dear Friends,

Here is a detailed explanation to this question-
alimad wrote:
Based on records from ancient Athens, each year young Athenian women collaborated to weave a new woolen robe that they used to dress a statue of the goddess Athena and that this robe depicted scenes of a battle between Zeus, Athena's father, and giants.


(A) Based on records from ancient Athens, each year young Athenian women collaborated to weave a new woolen robe that they used to dress

(B) Based on records from ancient Athens, young Athenian women had collaborated to weave a new woolen robe with which to dress

(C) According to records from ancient Athens, each year young Athenian women collaborated to weave a new woolen robe that they used to dress

(D) Records from ancient Athens indicate that each year young Athenian women collaborated to weave a new woolen robe with which they dressed

(E) Records from ancient Athens indicate each year young Athenian women had collaborated to weave a new woolen robe for dressing



Meaning is crucial to solving this problem:
Understanding the intended meaning is key to solving this question; the intended core meaning of this sentence is that records from ancient Athens indicate that each year young Athenian women collaborated to weave a new woolen robe with which they dressed a statue of the goddess Athena.

Concepts tested here: Meaning + Modifiers + Tenses + Parallelism

• The “phrase + comma + noun” construction, the phrase must correctly modify the noun; this is one of the most frequently tested concepts on GMAT sentence correction.
• The simple past tense is used to refer to actions that concluded in the past.
• The past perfect tense (marked by the use of the helping verb "had") is used when a sentence contains two actions in the past; the helping verb "had" is used with the action in the "greater past".
• Any elements linked by a conjunction ("and" in this sentence) must be parallel.

A: This answer choice incorrectly uses "Based on records from ancient Athens" to modify "each year young Athenian women", illogically implying that each year young Athenian women were based on records from Ancient Athens, and they collaborated to weave a new woolen robe; the intended meaning is that according to records from ancient Athens, each year young Athenian women collaborated to weave a new woolen robe; please remember, “phrase + comma + noun” construction, the phrase must correctly modify the noun.

B: This answer choice incorrectly uses "Based on records from ancient Athens" to modify "young Athenian women", illogically implying that each year young Athenian women were based on records from Ancient Athens, and they collaborated to weave a new woolen robe; the intended meaning is that according to records from ancient Athens, each year young Athenian women collaborated to weave a new woolen robe; please remember, “phrase + comma + noun” construction, the phrase must correctly modify the noun. Further, Option B incorrectly uses the past perfect tense verb "had collaborated" to refer to an action that concluded in the past; please remember, the simple past tense is used to refer to actions that concluded in the past, and the past perfect tense (marked by the use of helping verb "had") is used when a sentence contains two actions in the past; the helping verb "had" is used with the action in the "greater past".

C: This answer choice fails to maintain parallelism between "each year young Athenian women...to dress a statue of the goddess Athena" and "that this robe...and giants"; please remember, any elements linked by a conjunction ("and" in this sentence) must be parallel.

D: Correct. This answer choice uses the clause "Records from ancient Athens indicate that each year young Athenian women collaborated"; this clause does not use the "phrase + comma + noun" construction, avoiding the modifier error seen in Options A and B and conveying the intended meaning - that according to records from ancient Athens, each year young Athenian women collaborated to weave a new woolen robe. Further, Option D correctly uses the simple past tense verb "collaborated" to refer to an action that concluded in the past. Additionally, Option D maintains parallelism between "that each year young Athenian women...Athena" and "that this robe...and giants".

E: This answer choice incorrectly uses the past perfect tense verb "had collaborated" to refer to an action that concluded in the past; please remember, the simple past tense is used to refer to actions that concluded in the past, and the past perfect tense (marked by the use of helping verb "had") is used when a sentence contains two actions in the past; the helping verb "had" is used with the action in the "greater past". Further, Option E fails to maintain parallelism between "each year young Athenian women...for dressing a statue of the goddess Athena" and "that this robe...and giants"; please remember, any elements linked by a conjunction ("and" in this sentence) must be parallel.

Hence, D is the best answer choice.

To understand the concept of "Simple Tenses" on GMAT, you may want to watch the following video (~1 minute):



To understand the concept of "Past Perfect Tense" on GMAT, you may want to watch the following video (~2 minutes):



All the best!
Experts' Global Team


ExpertsGlobal5
Thank you for your helpful explanation.
I was confused between "with which" vs. "that they". "That they" seemed to make more sense. What is the difference between them? Thank you in advance.e
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Re: Based on records from ancient Athens, each year young Athenian women [#permalink]
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woohoo921 wrote:
ExpertsGlobal5 wrote:
Dear Friends,

Here is a detailed explanation to this question-
alimad wrote:
Based on records from ancient Athens, each year young Athenian women collaborated to weave a new woolen robe that they used to dress a statue of the goddess Athena and that this robe depicted scenes of a battle between Zeus, Athena's father, and giants.


(A) Based on records from ancient Athens, each year young Athenian women collaborated to weave a new woolen robe that they used to dress

(B) Based on records from ancient Athens, young Athenian women had collaborated to weave a new woolen robe with which to dress

(C) According to records from ancient Athens, each year young Athenian women collaborated to weave a new woolen robe that they used to dress

(D) Records from ancient Athens indicate that each year young Athenian women collaborated to weave a new woolen robe with which they dressed

(E) Records from ancient Athens indicate each year young Athenian women had collaborated to weave a new woolen robe for dressing



Meaning is crucial to solving this problem:
Understanding the intended meaning is key to solving this question; the intended core meaning of this sentence is that records from ancient Athens indicate that each year young Athenian women collaborated to weave a new woolen robe with which they dressed a statue of the goddess Athena.

Concepts tested here: Meaning + Modifiers + Tenses + Parallelism

• The “phrase + comma + noun” construction, the phrase must correctly modify the noun; this is one of the most frequently tested concepts on GMAT sentence correction.
• The simple past tense is used to refer to actions that concluded in the past.
• The past perfect tense (marked by the use of the helping verb "had") is used when a sentence contains two actions in the past; the helping verb "had" is used with the action in the "greater past".
• Any elements linked by a conjunction ("and" in this sentence) must be parallel.

A: This answer choice incorrectly uses "Based on records from ancient Athens" to modify "each year young Athenian women", illogically implying that each year young Athenian women were based on records from Ancient Athens, and they collaborated to weave a new woolen robe; the intended meaning is that according to records from ancient Athens, each year young Athenian women collaborated to weave a new woolen robe; please remember, “phrase + comma + noun” construction, the phrase must correctly modify the noun.

B: This answer choice incorrectly uses "Based on records from ancient Athens" to modify "young Athenian women", illogically implying that each year young Athenian women were based on records from Ancient Athens, and they collaborated to weave a new woolen robe; the intended meaning is that according to records from ancient Athens, each year young Athenian women collaborated to weave a new woolen robe; please remember, “phrase + comma + noun” construction, the phrase must correctly modify the noun. Further, Option B incorrectly uses the past perfect tense verb "had collaborated" to refer to an action that concluded in the past; please remember, the simple past tense is used to refer to actions that concluded in the past, and the past perfect tense (marked by the use of helping verb "had") is used when a sentence contains two actions in the past; the helping verb "had" is used with the action in the "greater past".

C: This answer choice fails to maintain parallelism between "each year young Athenian women...to dress a statue of the goddess Athena" and "that this robe...and giants"; please remember, any elements linked by a conjunction ("and" in this sentence) must be parallel.

D: Correct. This answer choice uses the clause "Records from ancient Athens indicate that each year young Athenian women collaborated"; this clause does not use the "phrase + comma + noun" construction, avoiding the modifier error seen in Options A and B and conveying the intended meaning - that according to records from ancient Athens, each year young Athenian women collaborated to weave a new woolen robe. Further, Option D correctly uses the simple past tense verb "collaborated" to refer to an action that concluded in the past. Additionally, Option D maintains parallelism between "that each year young Athenian women...Athena" and "that this robe...and giants".

E: This answer choice incorrectly uses the past perfect tense verb "had collaborated" to refer to an action that concluded in the past; please remember, the simple past tense is used to refer to actions that concluded in the past, and the past perfect tense (marked by the use of helping verb "had") is used when a sentence contains two actions in the past; the helping verb "had" is used with the action in the "greater past". Further, Option E fails to maintain parallelism between "each year young Athenian women...for dressing a statue of the goddess Athena" and "that this robe...and giants"; please remember, any elements linked by a conjunction ("and" in this sentence) must be parallel.

Hence, D is the best answer choice.

To understand the concept of "Simple Tenses" on GMAT, you may want to watch the following video (~1 minute):



To understand the concept of "Past Perfect Tense" on GMAT, you may want to watch the following video (~2 minutes):



All the best!
Experts' Global Team


ExpertsGlobal5
Thank you for your helpful explanation.
I was confused between "with which" vs. "that they". "That they" seemed to make more sense. What is the difference between them? Thank you in advance.e


Hello woohoo921,

We hope this finds you well.

To answer your query, in this context, both terms are grammatically acceptable and convey the same meaning: there is no real difference.

We hope this helps.
All the best!
Experts' Global Team
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Based on records from ancient Athens, each year young Athenian women [#permalink]
Based on records from ancient Athens, each year young Athenian women collaborated to weave a new woolen robe that they used to dress a statue of the goddess Athena and that this robe depicted scenes of a battle between Zeus, Athena's father, and giants.

Option elimination -

(A) Based on records from ancient Athens, each year young Athenian women collaborated to weave a new woolen robe that they used to dress - "Based on records.." ed verbal modifier meaning young women are based on the records. Wrong. For in "a new woolen robe that they used to dress," that refers back to the robe. Now, hold on to that for a second. Let's go to another that after and - that also refers to the robe conveying a weird meaning ..robe this robe depicted scenes - wrong.

(B) Based on records from ancient Athens, young Athenian women had collaborated to weave a new woolen robe with which to dress - "Based on records.." ed verbal modifier meaning young women are based on the records. Wrong. Moreover, "to dress" conveys that they are about to dress something - wrong.

(C) According to records from ancient Athens, each year young Athenian women collaborated to weave a new woolen robe that they used to dress - "used to dress" is okay, but the "that" parallel issue remains.

(D) Records from ancient Athens indicate that each year young Athenian women collaborated to weave a new woolen robe with which they dressed - perfect.

(E) Records from ancient Athens indicate each year young Athenian women had collaborated to weave a new woolen robe for dressing - past perfect and for dressing are wrong.
GMAT Club Bot
Based on records from ancient Athens, each year young Athenian women [#permalink]
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