University of St.Gallen (HSG) MBF 2014 intake

Hi Friends,

Will be attending a workshop about obtaining a work permit in Switzerland conducted by a law firm tomorrow. Will update you guys with the details soon. Stay posted.
- Snowden

Snowden, correct me if I am wrong, but being a citizen of the 28 EU countries, allows you to work in Switzerland, right ? I mean, there are probably some restrictions to Croatia, which just joined, and thats it ? Even the restrictions for Romanian and Bulgarian citizens are waived effective Jan 1, 2014.

Short answer , you are wrong...(no hard feelings bro but ill tell you why )

Hi Friends,

This is the information promised in my previous posts. Let me give the highlights. In case there are very specific scenarios I will answer them to the best of my knowledge. So here it goes:

1] ALL non-swiss, no matter who they are , need a work permit to work in switzerland.

2] Permits are essentially of type L, B, C there are several minor types for complex scenarios but mostly for students these are the ones that matter

3] L is for upto 2 years , B can be longer than 2 years, C is like a PR.( all permit applications are initiated by recruiter and not employees)

4] EU nationals can get type B/L on application with minimal paperwork within 2 weeks. Recruiters have to show that the position that is filled by these EU nationals is for a skill not available in Switzerland

5] Non EU can apply with loads of paper work ( non EU includes Canada and USA). and if all is well then within 4 weeks type B/L should be in.Recruiters have to show that the position that is filled by these non EU nationals is for a skill not available in Switzerland and the rest of Europe!!!

6] EU can get type C if they stay for 5 years in switzerland,for non eu its 10 years. with no breaks.

Sounds rosy for Eu citizens but well its no quite.

7] there are no unlimited work permits available. There are quotas decided by federal government released every quarter and then allocated to each canton individually. Zurich has the highest Appenzell the lowest.
case year 2012 - by October 2012 type b permits were over and no new ones were released. It is all related to the political climate


Finally if non-eu national wants to do internship for 6 months in switzerland and the course does not have it as being mandatory( IN MBF internship is not mandatory)
then the non-eu national cannot do it, it is not allowed which means non-eu nationals start with an extreme extreme disadvantage and discriminatory labor practises
right from student times.

this explains also my data about 50% internships in MBF
also the placement record ..the claim 100% placed is not simply true, atleast cannot be taken at face value...

-Snowden

Snowden, where do you get your information about the internships ? I couldnt find it in the brochure. I only found the full time employment stats.
Although you say that 50% of the students got internships, I am pretty sure that the % of EU nationals is significantly higher. You said it yourself, most students are either Swiss or German, add other German speakers from, say Austria, and some other EU nationals from Central and Eastern Europe ( Slovakia, Slovenia, Bulgaria, Estonia, Czech republic, Poland , Romania etc)...and the % of EU nationals gets really high. Again, I am not at all trying to question your reasoning, I am just trying to facilitate a healthy discussion.
About internships not being offered to non Swiss non EU, is this the case even if the employer really wants to hire a particular Non-eu for an internships ?

Information about internships is found on FT rankings.

You are right EU nationals are greater than 50% implies some non-swiss got internships.( even my previous posts never denied this) the question is the profile of the EU nationals is almost always having the German language proficiency as a factor.

But as i said before in my categorization. the extra advantage of knowing German and one another local language( Czech, Russian etc) means that there might be a high possibility that the hiring would be in Swiss companies but for those locations.

Finally for EU citizens one thing to remember is not all non-swiss are equal. It goes like
1] Swiss
2] DACH countries ( Germans are a majority in the class as it is)
3] Rest of Europe.

And if incentive theory has taught me anything then why would companies go through the pain and the cost to hire non-swiss/non DACH?
The cost is 4000 CHF ( as quoted by the law firm, else it would be similar if processed within the company).

(The reason I bring this DACH/non-DACH concept is that , this is a standard question in all forms published by the career services center here!)

For Non-EU it is a sad story indeed. The incentives or dis-incentives are so strong against hiring them for any reason that it makes no sense to be here in the first place. Unless they want to loose their dignity and get ready to catch whatever comes their way. Sorry for the harsh words but this is exactly the takeaway from the workshop yesterday. It really did not make any sense to me why the program would simply hide this information from the international students(Non-EU).
I could see that most of them (Majorly Asian, middle east) were shocked and depressed after the session. this should not have happened.

in the chase for better rankings, these students have been stepped upon. I feel sorry for them. That is why i take pains to explain the ground reality.

-Snowden

Nice job Well, I wish you all the best in your career, either in Switzerland or in your, I presume, non-EU country..
btw, your story about the companies "losing their dignity" by hiring non-EUs sounds pretty much like companies in the 1950s in the US losing their dignity by hiring blacks or females I dont think it is thaat bad, but who am I to say

dude you mis-read my statement. I meant the applicants in this case the students lose their dignity, since they all are not on equal footing.

your presumption is partly right. I am from an European 'non-EU' country( atleast not as of now )

-Snowden

Snowden, I appreciate how you have given your opinion about MBF however there are a few discrepancies in what I have gathered from other sources.

I'll first and foremost state that I am from Category 100 which u have provided although I am learning basic german at the moment.

I've noticed on online portals too, that in Germany there are jobs that require only English. Confirmed from Alumini of certain private universities in Germany. I know a St Gallen graduate from the same category as me landing a job in Mckinsey... Why are you not trying to apply in Germany- if St Gallen is so well respected in German Speaking World

Since you do not get an internship why did you not opt for doing an intensive german course then?

Why did you not opt for a exchange semester take an easier course save costs and learn the language?

During your thesis which has been given a chunk of 6 months, why can't I or you work on my language then?

Also how does St Gallen claim an average pay of CHF 93000 if people from developed countries have to return back to their homeland and this degree holds no weight?

Don't get me wrong I appreciate you whistle blowing but I would like a bit more clarity before I apply

@palidniax i am confused are you giving me advise or are you asking for information?

if you are giving advise i assure you that I will give it due thought.

If you are asking a question then from what i see from your post, you have the whole game-plan set-up.

Finally, you must be aware that you are not obliged to follow what I have said. The risk is totally on you. When i felt disillusioned after seeing the reality here , i felt the need to share information without any expectation of gains or recognition. That was the whole point.

you say you are from category 100 and still you are confident and beg to differ from my account of first hand experiences, then ,well, all I can say is 'ALL THE BEST'

-Snowden

Go ahead Snowden. this thread is getting more and more interesting with each new post.

I'm confused. From what I gather, you've put zero effort into learning German while you've been there and then you're surprised that you're unable to find a job through a Master's in Switzerland (A German speaking country)? I understand it's not easy to study and learn a language at the same time, but it's not easy to work 100 hours a week as an investment banker or travel 80% of the time as a strategy consultant either. What makes you think HEC Paris/SSE/Bocconi/Whatever would be any different? If you don't learn the local language, finding a job isn't going to be too easy. The work culture of the country is not going to shape itself around accommodating you. Personally, I think it's a bit offensive to a country to not try and adapt to its culture and instead have a sense of entitlement towards a job.

Hi Mooncakes,
First, I think you need to carefully re-read my posts titled 'the good' , 'the bad' , 'and the ugly truth'.

Now, yes I am surprised. And am not to blame for it. It lies squarely on the misrepresentation of information by the program.
When they say 100% placement with over 80% of those placed in Switzerland and over 80% are international students of which >30% are category 5 and above, what does it imply?
100 hour weeks LoL, at my previous workplace I have put in 120hrs weeks for months..but I dont see your point here.

You make a capital mistake by putting HEC, SSE, BOCCONI in the same bucket.
I know about SSE and Bocconi, there are people who have taken exchange semesters to HSG just to find jobs, but then there is no improvement in their situation in any way, I have talked to them on this. HEC is in a different league and I have discussed enough about it in my previous posts.

Now to my favorite part of your statement.
Keywords : 'accommodating' , 'offensive', 'entitlement'

accommodating - This is offensive at so many levels. I dont want to be accommodated. Neither should I expected to be. But atleast dont lie to me, dont deceive me. Let me break it down. Say somebody invites you to their home promising to host you for a few days. They promise to look after you well. you make the decision to go there based on these words. After going there you find that while the people in the family -kith and kin are feasting(avg swiss/german gets 3+ offers) you are allowed to have only crumbs(~0 offers). Now the host tells you this is our home and we cannot accommodate you ! ( read and re-read this and let the emotional content of this feeling sink into you)

A good example is the great nation of Japan. They literally own the world. think of the brands they have created, Sony, Suzuki, Honda, Toyota, Mitshubishi, Yamaha,Komatsu, Yokogowa i could simply go on.
they obviously have world class universities. But they dont care for ranks. name a single japanese uni off the cuff? most people cant. the reason is they are being outright honest. there are no opportunities for a "gaijin" no matter he/she studies there, nor do they pseudo 'accommodate' . it is the truth. plain and simple . Courses are in Japanese, so are the keyboards etc etc...HSG should let this cat out of the bag and conduct courses in German, then, only people who know german will come. But no they wont do that. Why? rankings baby rankings !

entitlement : Firstly your conclusion is right but it is cast on the wrong sample. THE SWISS/GERMAN STUDENTS FEEL ENTITLEMENT not the others. students here at HSG are not asylum seekers (sorry for the incisive statement but in this context it serves right). The students here have 700+ in GMAT that is the top 5%ile of the world. Dont you get it? The reason I bring this digression about asylum seekers is that the treatment is almost the same. https://www.spiegel.de/international/eur ... 15587.html

It is not that most of us had no choice that we came to HSG. it is because we got fooled by lies. Now once the buy in has happened the joke is on us.

-Snowden

Coming up, had a chat with the Career services center. Will update shortly on the happenings.

Great thread so far!

I would like to hear your opinion about SSE & Bocconi, snowden

Regarding SSE/Bocc., I'm not familiar with their placement but I'd imagine if you want to find a job after them you'd need to learn the respective languages in each region. As for HEC, I'm actually talking to another guy there on a different thread in the MSc. Management sub-forums and he highlights that knowing French is essential for breaking into consulting in France. So here's the question I'm curious about: how much effort did you put into learning German?

Given I'm category six, I'll probably dodge this bullet anyways and get a name-brand that'll be recognized overseas if I'm forced to return home. I will say that I did message St. Gallan regarding their placement for non-EU citizens from North America and they didn't really have any statistics. They emphasized knowledge of French or German, however.

Hi Beelonzz,
Sorry i dont have first hand info regarding these unis. There are a few students from those unis on exchange to HSG. They did those exchanges to get access to one of the stronger economies in europe compared to the home turf of their respective unis. But the issue is that they have not found anything so far.
That is all I know. Sorry, cant help you much on this.

But my only suggestion is to dig deeper and research more about your target schools, this is key take-away i want to deliver. Take the power in to your hands. Because once you commit your future into the hands of a uni it is mostly sealed for better or for worse..

-Snowden