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Re: GMAT Club MBA Rankings [Full-Time US] 1st Official [#permalink]
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arjunsh18 wrote:
Not sure how Darden and NYU rank above Columbia and MIT. And what horizon has been used to calculate ROI? You can’t just take the first years salary as the ROI. The whole point of doing an MBA is to catapult your career over a period of the next 5-10 years.

Posted from my mobile device



My understanding what plays a role in this is not only the nominal dollars but also the % of the class reporting the information. E.g. if only 10% of the class report that they are making $200K/year and everyone else is mum, we are not saying that everyone going to a school will make $200K but if another school has 90% reporting average salary of $100K then it will be ranked higher... and the school that has low number of people reporting will be penalized for the lack of information/transparency.... or at least I think that's how Regenerate has built the rankings :)

The reasoning for that, if people are not reporting their stats/salary figures, that means they either are not making enough or don't have a job or another reason they chose not to help their school and report data.

The reason for not measuring life-long compensation is that there is NO DATA from a reliable source that shares income/earnings over any time except what's in a school report. There are some flawed and very questionable figures put out based on the student loan payments and that is incomplete.

If you feel this reasoning or calculation is flawed, would love to hear your thoughts.

Thanks!
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Re: GMAT Club MBA Rankings [Full-Time US] 1st Official [#permalink]
Awesome to see this data!
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Re: GMAT Club MBA Rankings [Full-Time US] 1st Official [#permalink]
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arjunsh18 wrote:
Not sure how Darden and NYU rank above Columbia and MIT. And what horizon has been used to calculate ROI? You can’t just take the first years salary as the ROI. The whole point of doing an MBA is to catapult your career over a period of the next 5-10 years.

Posted from my mobile device


BB answered most of it below ... but, I'll provide additional details below his comments.


bb wrote:
arjunsh18 wrote:
Not sure how Darden and NYU rank above Columbia and MIT. And what horizon has been used to calculate ROI? You can’t just take the first years salary as the ROI. The whole point of doing an MBA is to catapult your career over a period of the next 5-10 years.

Posted from my mobile device



My understanding what plays a role in this is not only the nominal dollars but also the % of the class reporting the information. E.g. if only 10% of the class report that they are making $200K/year and everyone else is mum, we are not saying that everyone going to a school will make $200K but if another school has 90% reporting average salary of $100K then it will be ranked higher... and the school that has low number of people reporting will be penalized for the lack of information/transparency.... or at least I think that's how Regenerate has built the rankings :)

The reasoning for that, if people are not reporting their stats/salary figures, that means they either are not making enough or don't have a job or another reason they chose not to help their school and report data.

The reason for not measuring life-long compensation is that there is NO DATA from a reliable source that shares income/earnings over any time except what's in a school report. There are some flawed and very questionable figures put out based on the student loan payments and that is incomplete.

If you feel this reasoning or calculation is flawed, would love to hear your thoughts.

Thanks!


So, Darden and Stern placed above Columbia and MIT ... did you read the notes at the bottom of the ranking?

To quote NOTE #5 at the bottom of the overall ranking: "In close to half of the iterations considered, Stern and Sloan distanced themselves from the six schools immediately below them (Yale, Darden, Columbia, Fuqua, Ross and Tuck) and became their own tier. In every instance, these six schools were very tightly bunched and would appear in nearly every possible order. As a result, we believe it would be disingenuous to claim there is a marked quantitative difference in the quality of these six programs (ranked here from 9 to 14)."

(emphasis added)

Now, why did Stern rank more highly? Because the metrics we considered and the proportions in which we considered them made it so. We were agnostic as to which school should rank where. We let the data lead us.

And, similarly, those six schools ranked in a clump in every permutation we considered, and appeared in virtually every conceivable order (sometimes Ross was #9, sometimes they were #14 ... same for each other school in that group) ... which is why we said what we said.

Now, if Columbia had a class demographic that was more similar to the other schools in the top 40, they would have ranked more highly ... but, they don't and so they didn't. Again, they've got an excellent (!) brand and a very strong cohort (in terms of entrance exams, GPA and years of work experience) ... plus a solid ROI score (ranked in between Stanford and Yale on one side and Sloan and McCombs on the other -- four high-quality schools) ... but they were really hurt by their diversity score. Get rid of diversity altogether and they move up. But, we thought diversity is an important consideration -- anyone who is serious about learning, self-improvement and overall excellence does not want to live in an echo chamber -- these professionals and leaders will seek new ideas and different perspectives. This is why a US business school should have a good representation of women in their class ... a good representation of under-represented US minorities ... and ... not overly rely on strong non-US applicants to build a strong US-based program. The criteria would be different if we were ranking MBA programs with a global footprint ... but we're not. This is a ranking of full-time US programs.

Finally, the descriptions that explained each sub-score are, we believe, relatively straight forward ... and ... as described in the write-up, there were numerous areas we would have liked to have analyzed (including our top desire to improve the quality of the ROI analysis, which desire was also described in the write-up above), however we were faced with a variety of data sufficiency issues that kept us from looking at this question from even more angles. Maybe we can be more robust in the future. If you have any suggestions for high-quality and robust sources of applicable raw data, I'm all ears. :)

Thanks for the questions.
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Re: GMAT Club MBA Rankings [Full-Time US] 1st Official [#permalink]
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Regenerate wrote:
As a result, our models did not dedicate any attention to things such as quality of the school building, location of the school, average temperature in February, how many professors have published papers, etc.

Glad you left them out. Other than helping with the optics, of making the ranking methodology seem diverse and comprehensive, their utility is subjective.

I'd think students would benefit more from professors who use their time outside classrooms to help them learn and grow, as opposed to churning out theoretical papers in solitary confinement.

Btw, I was curious to know if you've included the proportion of students who manage a career change (industry, role, geography).

For many folks who work with us, other than getting a high salary, an MBA is also a vehicle to manage a career transition.

It'll be great to have this factored somewhere in there, as part of the refinement process.

And yes, with the increased interest in programs outside the US, it'll be good to include top programs in Europe, Canada, Asia too.
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Re: GMAT Club MBA Rankings [Full-Time US] 1st Official [#permalink]
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MBACrystalBall wrote:
Regenerate wrote:
As a result, our models did not dedicate any attention to things such as quality of the school building, location of the school, average temperature in February, how many professors have published papers, etc.

Glad you left them out. Other than helping with the optics, of making the ranking methodology seem diverse and comprehensive, their utility is subjective.

I'd think students would benefit more from professors who use their time outside classrooms to help them learn and grow, as opposed to churning out theoretical papers in solitary confinement.

Btw, I was curious to know if you've included the proportion of students who manage a career change (industry, role, geography).

For many folks who work with us, other than getting a high salary, an MBA is also a vehicle to manage a career transition.

It'll be great to have this factored somewhere in there, as part of the refinement process.

And yes, with the increased interest in programs outside the US, it'll be good to include top programs in Europe, Canada, Asia too.


You raise a great point.

We faced enormous issues with data sufficiency; the area you highlight is one such area. We need the same data from each school before we can build a model to analyze all schools in any particular area --- apples to apples; oranges to oranges; kumquats to kumquats.
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Re: GMAT Club MBA Rankings [Full-Time US] 1st Official [#permalink]
Very great initiative GMATClub and the people involved - esp. @Regenerate; kudos to you all!

Taking the example of a product manager, as they would let the customer feedback guide them and not let the opinions of other PMs deter them, I'd like to see the 'Brand' metric being solely driven by employer opinions on the performance of MBA grads from various schools and their resulting propensity to hire from these schools. (perhaps we can bring in some sense-checks by weighing it with the actual % class hired by these employers to see if they walk the talk?)

Since you guys seem to have tested a great bunch of scenarios, is this something you have readily available that this year's applicants (myself included) can use? I understand you may have it for the top employers only such as the MBB and/or FAAMG - but that too helps.

PS: my reasoning is that the 'Brand' is like a tool and it is up to each candidate to use as per their abilities, drive, etc. Hence, giving much higher weightage to general preference, yield, etc. just gives a mixed average. Hypothetically, that is something the schools can try to have a large influence on - I know some schools go to great lengths to keep their yield up.
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Re: GMAT Club MBA Rankings [Full-Time US] 1st Official [#permalink]
simplepawn wrote:
Very great initiative GMATClub and the people involved - esp. @Regenerate; kudos to you all!

Taking the example of a product manager, as they would let the customer feedback guide them and not let the opinions of other PMs deter them, I'd like to see the 'Brand' metric being solely driven by employer opinions on the performance of MBA grads from various schools and their resulting propensity to hire from these schools. (perhaps we can bring in some sense-checks by weighing it with the actual % class hired by these employers to see if they walk the talk?)

Since you guys seem to have tested a great bunch of scenarios, is this something you have readily available that this year's applicants (myself included) can use? I understand you may have it for the top employers only such as the MBB and/or FAAMG - but that too helps.

PS: my reasoning is that the 'Brand' is like a tool and it is up to each candidate to use as per their abilities, drive, etc. Hence, giving much higher weightage to general preference, yield, etc. just gives a mixed average. Hypothetically, that is something the schools can try to have a large influence on - I know some schools go to great lengths to keep their yield up.


Good ideas ... however ... as with most interesting avenues to pursue, the data sufficiency issues would block this, as follows:

Top 40 schools ... top 20 employers at each ... survey each employer (probably 20-50 data points requested from each employer at each school) ... enter the data ... verify the data ... analyze the data, adjusting for alumni biases in favor of grads from the school the recruiter graduated from to try to normalize bias ... etc ... All of that is easily hundreds of thousands of data points and hundreds (if not thousands) of hours of work.

The only top-notch employers we could find who'd published a list of schools they'd consider admits to be eligible for a pre-MBA internship were the three MBBs. If Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley and JP Morgan had a list, we'd look at it. If FAANG had a list, we'd use it. If top accounting firms had a list, we'd use it. If top consumer products companies had it, we'd use it. Etc.

The trouble is that some / several / many other employers had programs for pre-MBA internships, however, all of the other programs we found were ONLY open to MBA admits fitting particular demographic profiles (irrespective of schools they students were attending), as opposed to being programs which were open to ALL students from a particular school. While we applaud programs to enhance opportunities for traditionally under-represented demographic groups, we're focused on ranking MBA programs (as opposed to ranking employers' diversity initiatives), and so we'd need to find elite internships opportunities open only to ALL students at a list of particular schools.

So, we focused on "BRAND" as principally being an effort to measure which schools are preferred by the applicants and admits themselves -- figuring they (as a group) are informed with their goals and alumni who've achieved their goals, etc. By looking at the potential answers to this question from multiple perspectives, we believe we were able to achieve an answer that's directionally and proportionately representative of the preferences of the aggregated universe of MBA applicants and admits (inclusive of ALL the reasons that ANY student might apply / attend any given school).

If you've got ideas as to how to improve the BRAND (or other) metrics ... without a bajillion data points ... drop me a private note to discuss further. Thanks! :)
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Re: GMAT Club MBA Rankings [Full-Time US] 1st Official [#permalink]
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bb wrote:
Thanks so much for posting! Very interesting to see Darden as #1 ranked for ROI!


They had the highest % of their graduating class reporting in on compensation statistics ... and ... while their base salary was a decent bit lower than the very highest salaries reported, they had a the 3rd highest percentage of their graduating class reporting getting a signing bonus (which helps out their overall 1st year compensation stats) ... and ... their cost of attendance is a decent bit lower than most of the other schools in the top 15 ... so, add it all up, and it makes good sense to me. :)
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Re: GMAT Club MBA Rankings [Full-Time US] 1st Official [#permalink]
hey
this is really comprehensively
Regenerate just wanted to know that is brand perception skewed toward domestic students’ preferences?
because as an international i always thought tepper was the best of the rest (after t15)
considering that prestige recruiters seem more prevalent at tepper

Posted from my mobile device
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Re: GMAT Club MBA Rankings [Full-Time US] 1st Official [#permalink]
also, i was going through the apps received by top20 schools in the past few years and despite Cornell being an ivy and ranked higher almost everywhere, it still receives fewer apps than mccombs and marshall?
bb Regenerate
am i missing something?
is it the LA and Austin factor?

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Re: GMAT Club MBA Rankings [Full-Time US] 1st Official [#permalink]
fordvferrarivmerc wrote:
hey
this is really comprehensively
Regenerate just wanted to know that is brand perception skewed toward domestic students’ preferences?
because as an international i always thought tepper was the best of the rest (after t15)
considering that prestige recruiters seem more prevalent at tepper


Thanks for the comments!

Brand perception is based on the total number of applicants, the total number of people accepted, the total number of matriculants, and ratios between these three ... plus ... the correlation between perceived program strengths (in various academic departments) vs. the average priorities for intellectual development among MBA students ... and ... whether or not a school is approved by one or more MBB for pre-MBA internships (as a proxy for a program's prestige among high-end employers).

I'm not sure if any of those metrics make it skewed for or against domestic student preferences ...

I'm quite good with you personally considering Tepper the 16th best program. It's a nice program and has helped a ton of people get where they want to go with their careers. It just didn't show up as the 16th best (or higher) school in any combination of variables we looked at this year with this data and over-arching philosophy.

fordvferrarivmerc wrote:
also, i was going through the apps received by top20 schools in the past few years and despite Cornell being an ivy and ranked higher almost everywhere, it still receives fewer apps than mccombs and marshall?
bb Regenerate
am i missing something?
is it the LA and Austin factor?



Here's the data for these three schools:

Cornell (Johnson) = 1535 applicants ... 588 admits (38.3%) ... 282 matriculants (48.0% yield)
Texas (McCombs) = 1941 applicants ... 749 admits (38.1%) ... 260 matriculants (35.1% yield)
USC (Marshall) = 1899 applicants ... 568 admits (29.9%) ... 214 matriculants (37.7% yield)

Fewer applicants needed to get a bigger class with the highest yield? Sounds like, when comparing these three schools, the people who apply there want to go there ... and ... it sounds like an argument could be made that McCombs and Marshall are often a backup option ...

In the BRAND score, Johnson and McCombs were (for all intents and purposes) tied ... Marshall was a good bit behind (due in large part to their lack of acceptance by MBB for pre-MBA internships, as none of the MBB had Marshall on their list and two of the three MBBs approved Johnson and McCombs).

Also, FWIW Tepper, Kenan-Flagler and McDonough were all within 300 applications of Johnson. Tepper and Kenan-Flagler were on the rung just below Johnson and McCombs ... but McDonough brought up the rear (for a variety of reasons -- namely they scored lower than both Tepper and Kenan-Flagler in each of the three sub-scores that make up the BRAND score).
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The 2022 Rankings have been posted by the way. Here is the link to the 2nd Edition of the GMAT Club Rankings:

https://gmatclub.com/forum/gmat-club-mb ... 57142.html
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Re: GMAT Club MBA Rankings [Full-Time US] 1st Official [#permalink]
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Re: GMAT Club MBA Rankings [Full-Time US] 1st Official [#permalink]

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