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International Student - Rotman ($) vs U Miami ($$) vs Katz (pending).

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International Student - Rotman ($) vs U Miami ($$) vs Katz (pending). [#permalink] New post   04 Apr 2018, 16:09
Evening all,

I am an international student from the U.K. and went to a small university in PA for undergrad.

I would be interested to hear your Top 5 Criteria for deciding between schools, as my situation is below.

I have been accepted into the following programs:
1. Rotman with a 15% scholarship, to the
2. University of Miami with a 50% fellowship,
3. Awaiting Decision from Katz (however I am leaning more toward the first two options.)

With the difference in financial aid and tuition fees:
Rotman - Around $66,000(USD) out of pocket.
Miami - Around $50,000(USD) out of pocket.
** Not including cost of living expenses

Goals
My goals are to pivot from my current industry into a finance based one, either in investment banking, trading, or consulting.
I also value some entrepreneurially based electives, as a future goal is to start a business.

From an MBA program I would hope to expand and develop my network, choose electives that I could actually build and learn genuine skills from, and change career path as mentioned but also not rule out the possibility of finding a passion that I would like to ultimately pursue afterwards. Also coming in to play is the potential for work after graduation and the opportunity to get an internship as part of the program.

Considerations
Rotman has a mandatory internship program that pays on average $4,000 - $5,000CAD.
I have spoken to current Miami students and internships are harder to get as an international with fewer companies sponsoring visas lately.
With regards to visas, post grad, a US MBA offers a 1-Year OPT Extension, compared with Rotman that has a 3-Year extension.
I have many friends in Toronto that I could live with, one friend in Miami, but would need to find my own accommodation.

Questions
- How much weight should I place on the ranking/prestige of the institution when comparing these two?
- Is a U.S. MBA more valuable than one from Canada?
- Are there any other key metrics I should consider other than affordability, career prospects, academics, & network?
- Would any of the name brands listed be a game changer on my resume since my undergraduate university will not be recognised?

Any information, experiences, advice with regards to this decision, or any consideration I neglected would be greatly appreciated,

Cheers, :thumbup:
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Re: International Student - Rotman ($) vs U Miami ($$) vs Katz (pending). [#permalink] New post   05 Apr 2018, 13:48
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Hey jasmithy

Considering the current situation at the US and taking into consideration
the ranking of the schools, ROTMAN is a clear winner. It also aligns with your
post-MBA goal of getting into finance. As far as Canada is concerned, if
you are eyeing any big role in finance, Rotman is the school for you!

The 16000$ difference is hardly going to make a difference in the long run.
Of the colleges you have on the list, only Rotman could be a game changer
when it comes to your resume, especially if you pursue your career in Canada.

Hope this helps you make an informed decision. Do let us know where you decide to go to.
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Re: International Student - Rotman ($) vs U Miami ($$) vs Katz (pending). [#permalink] New post   05 Apr 2018, 13:59
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jasmithy wrote:
Evening all,

I am an international student from the U.K. and went to a small university in PA for undergrad.

I would be interested to hear your Top 5 Criteria for deciding between schools, as my situation is below.

I have been accepted into the following programs:
1. Rotman with a 15% scholarship, to the
2. University of Miami with a 50% fellowship,
3. Awaiting Decision from Katz (however I am leaning more toward the first two options.)

With the difference in financial aid and tuition fees:
Rotman - Around $66,000(USD) out of pocket.
Miami - Around $50,000(USD) out of pocket.
** Not including cost of living expenses

Goals
My goals are to pivot from my current industry into a finance based one, either in investment banking, trading, or consulting.
I also value some entrepreneurially based electives, as a future goal is to start a business.

From an MBA program I would hope to expand and develop my network, choose electives that I could actually build and learn genuine skills from, and change career path as mentioned but also not rule out the possibility of finding a passion that I would like to ultimately pursue afterwards. Also coming in to play is the potential for work after graduation and the opportunity to get an internship as part of the program.

Considerations
Rotman has a mandatory internship program that pays on average $4,000 - $5,000CAD.
I have spoken to current Miami students and internships are harder to get as an international with fewer companies sponsoring visas lately.
With regards to visas, post grad, a US MBA offers a 1-Year OPT Extension, compared with Rotman that has a 3-Year extension.
I have many friends in Toronto that I could live with, one friend in Miami, but would need to find my own accommodation.

Questions
- How much weight should I place on the ranking/prestige of the institution when comparing these two?
- Is a U.S. MBA more valuable than one from Canada?
- Are there any other key metrics I should consider other than affordability, career prospects, academics, & network?
- Would any of the name brands listed be a game changer on my resume since my undergraduate university will not be recognised?

Any information, experiences, advice with regards to this decision, or any consideration I neglected would be greatly appreciated,

Cheers, :thumbup:


Rotman is the best fit. It is real game changer. When you consider a country, you want to consider the top schools that makes you penetrate the job market. In you case , it is Rotman compared to Katz and Miami.
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Re: International Student - Rotman ($) vs U Miami ($$) vs Katz (pending). [#permalink] New post   08 Apr 2018, 17:29
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Forget about going into consulting from U of M. But with Rotman you have a chance in Canadian offices as its the best school in Canada. But still you gonna compete with tons of Ivy League grads. Finally, needless to mention how easy it is to get a work permit in Canada (vs the hard time you get in US with H1B).
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Re: International Student - Rotman ($) vs U Miami ($$) vs Katz (pending). [#permalink] New post   08 Apr 2018, 18:40
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Congratulations!

One thing to note, if you don’t care about the place and country you will work at, then Rotman is probably the best choice.

At the same time, Canada does not offer as many opportunities as the US. The pay is also less, and MBA is less valuable as employers often value WE more than the degree. I would recommend researching salaries and placements for industry switchers before you fully commit.

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International Student - Rotman ($) vs U Miami ($$) vs Katz (pending). [#permalink] New post   16 Apr 2018, 01:21
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Canada's economy is based mostly on natural resources, so it's more volatile. Also, when resource prices rise, the Canadian dollar rises too, which hurts Canadian exporters. The banking sector is pretty good in Canada, but a real estate crash seems possible, given the inflation of home prices.

Compare that with the US: It's a much more important financial center. The US has a larger stock market, more investment banking and more venture capital firms. Overall, the US economy is much more diverse.

Politically, Canada is much quieter than the US, but there's also less debate, which is not good. Canada doesn't have an independent House, Senate, and President. If the Canadian prime minister has a majority, no one can effectively oppose him. It's not healthy. Also, Canadian universities are just as politicized as American universities. And Canada has antifa violence too.

US politics has been controversial, but Trump has really improved the economy. He's reduced regulation and lowered taxes. He's also negotiating better trade deals for the US.

In general, an American degree will get more recognition in the USA, and there are far more jobs in the USA.

Those are some points to consider.
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Re: International Student - Rotman ($) vs U Miami ($$) vs Katz (pending). [#permalink] New post   17 Apr 2018, 12:24
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YupYup wrote:
Canada's economy is based mostly on natural resources, so it's more volatile. Also, when resource prices rise, the Canadian dollar rises too, which hurts Canadian exporters. The banking sector is pretty good in Canada, but a real estate crash seems possible, given the inflation of home prices.

Compare that with the US: It's a much more important financial center. The US has a larger stock market, more investment banking and more venture capital firms. Overall, the US economy is much more diverse.

Politically, Canada is much quieter than the US, but there's also less debate, which is not good. Canada doesn't have an independent House, Senate, and President. If the Canadian prime minister has a majority, no one can effectively oppose him. It's not healthy. Also, Canadian universities are just as politicized as American universities. And Canada has antifa violence too.

US politics has been controversial, but Trump has really improved the economy. He's reduced regulation and lowered taxes. He's also negotiating better trade deals for the US.

In general, an American degree will get more recognition in the USA, and there are far more jobs in the USA.

Those are some points to consider.



Thanks for sharing! It is interesting to see some of the perception of Trump from a Canadian perspective (just guessing based on your knowledge of the CA system). I am not sure anyone in the US is giving Trump the credit for the economy really in the US, but with him being a liability, anything is better than nothing.
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International Student - Rotman ($) vs U Miami ($$) vs Katz (pending). [#permalink] New post   17 Apr 2018, 12:35
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I don't know the reason as to why people compare the Rotman, which THE BEST Canadian MBA program, to a Tier-5 schools in the US - like U-Maimi.

Again -> Best Canadian program Vs Tier-5 school in the US! Can the equation get any simpler?

Rotman = Outstanding employment statistics + STRONG alumni network + Great MBA experience!
The other two schools DO NOT fall in the same bracket.
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International Student - Rotman ($) vs U Miami ($$) vs Katz (pending). [#permalink] New post   Updated on: 22 Apr 2018, 11:28
Which is the best business school in Canada? Rankings vary. Ivey and Queens are both Canadian business schools, and they rank higher than Rotman, according to Bloomberg.

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-best-international-business-schools

Given the wide variation in rankings, they are no doubt influenced by the subjective opinions of the rankers.

Political opinions are also subjective, but measuring them can be fairly accurate. It's interesting that 42% of Americans actually do approve of Trump's job performance (as of April 16, 2018):

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president_trump_job_approval-6179.html

Originally posted by YupYup on 17 Apr 2018, 18:05.
Last edited by YupYup on 22 Apr 2018, 11:28, edited 1 time in total.
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International Student - Rotman ($) vs U Miami ($$) vs Katz (pending). [#permalink] New post   17 Apr 2018, 18:48
YupYup wrote:
Which is the best business school in Canada? Rankings vary. Ivey and Queens are both Canadian business schools, and they rank higher than Rotman, according to Bloomberg.

bloomberg dot com/graphics/2017-best-international-business-schools/

Given the wide variation in rankings, they are no doubt influenced by the subjective opinions of the rankers.

Political opinions are also subjective, but measuring them can be fairly accurate. It's interesting that 42% of Americans actually do approve of Trump's job performance (as of April 16, 2018):

realclearpolitics dot com/epolls/other/president_trump_job_approval-6179.html


You mean the same Bloomberg magazine which placed Rice (Jones) in the Top 10 and ahead the giants like - California-Berkeley (Haas), Michigan (Ross), Cornell (Johnson), Carnegie Mellon (Tepper), Washington (Foster), Yale, Virginia (Darden), NYU (Stern), UCLA (Anderson), Texas-Austin (McCombs)??

Don't get me wrong IVEY, QUEENS are amazing programs and some people actually prefer IVEY ahead of Rotman.

But look at the other two schools! U-Maimi and Katz. They are just NOT in the same bracket.

Its like comparing Apples to Oranges.

For the highlighted portion -> That figure has been pretty volatile. I would give it another couple of years. Personally, I strongly feel that the current US economy has nothing to do with Trump.
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International Student - Rotman ($) vs U Miami ($$) vs Katz (pending). [#permalink] New post   17 Apr 2018, 20:14
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Brand prestige may be a valid criterion when shopping for jeans, but it's less important when shopping for a business school. You can't be sure that brand prestige correlates 100% with MBA program quality and job placement results. A prestigious business school that doesn't teach well can leave a student with inferior management skills that don't match the prestigious degree.

Imagine having a prestigious Stern MBA, and the guy in your office with the humble Jones MBA gets promoted and becomes your boss. It could happen, and it would likely change your mind about the value of brand prestige.

If Bloomberg ranks Jones higher than Stern, that's not by itself a valid reason to dismiss their ranking altogether. Bloomberg's opinion is at least worth investigating.

U-Maimi and Katz are also worth investigating, in depth, even if they're not the most famous. Just being located in the USA gives them a significant advantage over Rotman, though Rotman may have other advantages too. In any case, Canada has structural problems that cannot be fixed, so it's economy will always be limited.

An underlying issue in this discussion is aversion to cognitive dissonance, which can really hold a person back. I suggest readers google "conservative magazines". Then read an article or two a day in the Wall Street Journal, the National Review, or The Federalist etc and monitor your pain. It will likely subside after a while, and you'll benefit from a broader view of the world.
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Re: International Student - Rotman ($) vs U Miami ($$) vs Katz (pending). [#permalink] New post   18 Apr 2018, 12:23
This really isnt even close. Rotman. INTL students need that prestige bump if they want to find an employer who's willing to sponsor. You have students in the T20 who are having trouble finding internships, so give your self a good fighting chance.
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International Student - Rotman ($) vs U Miami ($$) vs Katz (pending). [#permalink] New post   Updated on: 22 Apr 2018, 11:29
The prestige of a job candidate's MBA would likely be just one of many factors considered by a hiring manager. Dazzling credentials are no guarantee of stellar job performance.

That said, it's not clear to me that Rotman is more prestigious than the other two schools. It's worth looking at the numbers. See for yourself:

Katz:
https://rankings.ft.com/businessschoolrankings/university-of-pittsburgh-katz/global-mba-ranking-2018#global-mba-ranking-2018

Rotman:
https://rankings.ft.com/businessschoolrankings/university-of-toronto-rotman/global-mba-ranking-2018#global-mba-ranking-2018

Miami: (This is an old ranking from 2010, during the recession, which is maybe why the employment number is bad.)
https://rankings.ft.com/businessschoolrankings/university-of-miami-school-of-business/global-mba-rankings-2010#global-mba-rankings-2010

Looking at Rotman, I see that the "Alumni Recommend Rank" is 27, which seems good, but it could also have resulted from more pep talks and more aggressive alumni surveys. If Rotman really is better than Katz, why is the Rotman "Salary today" number US$8000 lower than the corresponding number for Katz? Why is the Rotman "Employed at three months" number also lower? Perhaps because Rotman is located in Canada?

I don't mean to disparage Rotman; it's no doubt a very good school, and the OP could probably do well there. But looking past the hype, Katz may be a better bet.

Originally posted by YupYup on 18 Apr 2018, 14:50.
Last edited by YupYup on 22 Apr 2018, 11:29, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: International Student - Rotman ($) vs U Miami ($$) vs Katz (pending). [#permalink] New post   18 Apr 2018, 17:18
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It isn't even close. Rotman sends around 7-10 people to MBB each year and is a target school for all the Canadian Banks. The reason Rotman doesn't do well in the FT is because Canadian salaries are lower and the Canadian dollar has taken a beating recently.

YupYup wrote:
If the Canadian prime minister has a majority, no one can effectively oppose him. It's not healthy.

hahaha what! Are you really comparing the Canadian Prime Minister to the American one who hasn't ruled out firing Robert Mueller?

YupYup wrote:
And Canada has antifa violence too.

Compared to what happened in Charlottesville, antifa violence in Canada is like a fight at a 10 year old's birthday party.

YupYup wrote:
US politics has been controversial, but Trump has really improved the economy. He's reduced regulation and lowered taxes. He's also negotiating better trade deals for the US.

Controversial is an understatement.

As a place to raise a family, Canada in my opinion is unquestionably a better place to live. I came to Canada when I was 13 years old. I would hate for my children to grow up in a country where almost 50% of the people around you voted in and are okay with their president saying the things he does. But again, that's my personal opinion and arguably/thankfully, also the opinion of a majority of Canadians.
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International Student - Rotman ($) vs U Miami ($$) vs Katz (pending). [#permalink] New post   Updated on: 22 Apr 2018, 11:21
Which country is better? Some people say that if you're a socialist or if you're poor, then you should live in Canada, whereas if you're ambitious or rich, then you should live in the USA. ;)

Your personal views on which country is better may depend on which cable news channel you watch. But for serious life decisions, I wouldn't depend on CNN or FoxNews. Dig deeper. Check the facts. And be aware that your choice of news media is a measure of your own bias. Here's a useful chart for that:

https://sharylattkisson.com/2017/04/23/media-bias-a-new-chart

Another aspect the OP might want to consider is the caliber of students he would be studying with. If average student GMAT scores are an accurate measure of that, then Rotman might be slightly better, though the spread is much wider (according to Princeton Review). The higher of the Rotman scores might reflect demand from talented east Asian students who prefer UofT because they feel at home among Toronto's large Chinese population. The lower of the Rotman scores probably indicate that Rotman has lowered the bar to maximize tuition revenue. It's better to have more consistency, so that the students are better matched, in my opinion.

Here are the relevant GMAT scores from Princeton Review (25th and 75th percentiles)

Katz: 570 ... 653
https://www.princetonreview.com/business/university-pittsburgh-joseph-m-katz-graduate-school-business-1011152

Miami: 600 ... 680
https://www.princetonreview.com/business/university-miami-school-business-1011133

Rotman: 550 ... 780
https://www.princetonreview.com/business/university-toronto-joseph-l-rotman-school-management-1011165

Originally posted by YupYup on 18 Apr 2018, 22:39.
Last edited by YupYup on 22 Apr 2018, 11:21, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: International Student - Rotman ($) vs U Miami ($$) vs Katz (pending). [#permalink] New post   22 Apr 2018, 11:15
jasmithy, I think everyone would be interested to know which MBA program you've chosen and why -- or at least which program you're favoring at this point, and why.
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Re: International Student - Rotman ($) vs U Miami ($$) vs Katz (pending). [#permalink] New post   25 Apr 2018, 20:43
Given new rules prohibiting OPT at third party sites i would imagine consulting firm hiring will be way down. I would give Rotman a closer look given easier work permit rules in Canada
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International Student - Rotman ($) vs U Miami ($$) vs Katz (pending). [#permalink] New post   25 Apr 2018, 21:10
Hi YupYup

I will respond to your post in points ->
Quote:
Brand prestige may be a valid criterion when shopping for jeans, but it's less important when shopping for a business school. You can't be sure that brand prestige correlates 100% with MBA program quality and job placement results. A prestigious business school that doesn't teach well can leave a student with inferior management skills that don't match the prestigious degree.
Imagine having a prestigious Stern MBA, and the guy in your office with the humble Jones MBA gets promoted and becomes your boss. It could happen, and it would likely change your mind about the value of brand prestige.


This statement is utter garbage! Brand is extremely important when it comes to MBA. Going to Harvard cannot be equated to going to U-Maimi. If a prestigious business school that doesn't teach well and leaves a student with inferior management skills then why on earth will it be a prestigious B-school. Your point regarding Stern MBA goes for every freaking B-school and by extension any educational institution. If a Harvard graduate doesn't work hard, he/she will fail.


Quote:
U-Maimi and Katz are also worth investigating, in depth, even if they're not the most famous. Just being located in the USA gives them a significant advantage over Rotman, though Rotman may have other advantages too. In any case, Canada has structural problems that cannot be fixed, so it's economy will always be limited.


Another ridiculously incorrect and abhorrent statement that is devoid of facts.



Quote:
The prestige of a job candidate's MBA would likely be just one of many factors considered by a hiring manager. Dazzling credentials are no guarantee of stellar job performance.

That said, it's not clear to me that Rotman is more prestigious than the other two schools. It's worth looking at the numbers. See for yourself:

Katz:
https://rankings.ft.com/businessschoolra ... nking-2018

Rotman:
https://rankings.ft.com/businessschoolra ... nking-2018

Miami: (This is an old ranking from 2010, during the recession, which is maybe why the employment number is bad.)
https://rankings.ft.com/businessschoolra ... kings-2010

Looking at Rotman, I see that the "Alumni Recommend Rank" is 27, which seems good, but it could also have resulted from more pep talks and more aggressive alumni surveys. If Rotman really is better than Katz, why is the Rotman "Salary today" number US$8000 lower than the corresponding number for Katz? Why is the Rotman "Employed at three months" number also lower? Perhaps because Rotman is located in Canada?

I don't mean to disparage Rotman; it's no doubt a very good school, and the OP could probably do well there. But looking past the hype, Katz may be a better bet.


Better Bet? Are you serious!
I have one response to this in-factual comment-> ROTMAN SMOKES Katz and U-Maimi in every freaking data-point. And please fact check before posting.
Average GMAT at Rotman - 665
Average GMAT at Katz - 608

Also, Rotman's class size = 350 with people from 35 different countries.
Katz has just 70 incoming students with people from 12 different countries. It nearly accepts nearly half of its applicant pool.

Conclusion -> You cannot compare the Best B-school in the US to a Tier-3 school in the US.

P.S -> I would advise you to not make any more abhorrent remarks about the great nation of Canada!
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Re: International Student - Rotman ($) vs U Miami ($$) vs Katz (pending). [#permalink] New post   25 Apr 2018, 23:28
sr77, you've raised an interesting point. Apparently, students are now required to work at their employer's location, and are no longer allowed to work offsite. But that rule seems intended to stop employers from cheating. For example, some employers could cheat by hiring underpaid workers who are kept out of sight. The new rule will make that difficult. But it does not seem intended to reduce the total number of foreign workers.

With the US economy booming, the demand for educated foreign workers is actually increasing. So even with the new rules, there will likely be plenty of opportunities for well-qualified students and graduates.

For readers who want to learn more, here are some relevant articles:

Foreign workers in the US:
https://www.techrepublic.com/article/trump-keeps-h-1b-but-imposes-strict-guidelines-for-applicants/
https://www.murthy.com/2018/04/19/uscis-changes-position-on-third-party-placement-of-stem-opt-workers/
https://www.techrepublic.com/article/us-tech-companies-hired-more-h-1b-workers-last-year-to-fill-talent-gaps/

Foreign workers in Canada:
https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/study-canada/work/after-graduation/eligibility.html
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International Student - Rotman ($) vs U Miami ($$) vs Katz (pending). [#permalink] New post   29 Apr 2018, 01:56
Business schools can be compared on other dimensions as well. For example, some universities have more "political correctness" controversies than others. Here's a famous example:

https://www.thefire.org/one-year-later-erika-christakis-breaks-her-silence-on-yale-halloween-controversy/

[Edit:] To watch videos of the original student-professor confrontation, visit this link:
https://www.thefire.org/new-video-of-last-years-yale-halloween-costume-confrontation-emerges/

With that in mind, I googled the names of the three business schools in turn, along with words such as "political correctness", "gender", and "marxism".

For Miami and Katz, nothing significant appeared in the search results, but for Rotman, what did appear was a specialized website:

https://www.gendereconomy.org/

With that website, Rotman is appealing to people who are passionate about feminism and gender issues. [Edit:] As a result, people with those concerns will inevitably be attracted to Rotman, and they would likely comprise a larger percentage of the students at Rotman than at other b-schools.

Conceivably, people who are less passionate about those issues might find Rotman too politicized. It would be a matter of personal preference.

If you're not sure, try googling this: Rotman Marxism.
Then read up on the topic. It's quite interesting.

[Edit:] As I've pointed out previously in this thread, there are factors besides a business school's brand name that should be considered carefully. Yes, names like Harvard, Stanford, and Wharton stand out among business schools, and the prestige of those brand names would help any resume. But lower on the rankings, there is much less differentiation. Rotman, Miami, and Katz have plenty of competition, and none are stellar brand names, regardless of the marketing hype. So it's worth carefully considering all other factors that would affect the quality of education and the student life experience at any b-school you're considering, as well as employment and salary prospects.
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International Student - Rotman ($) vs U Miami ($$) vs Katz (pending). [#permalink]
29 Apr 2018, 01:56
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