Ranks and clusterings of various International b-schools : The B-School Applications

buffdaddy

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Re: Ranks and clusterings of various International b-schools [#permalink]

07 May 2009, 07:27

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I personally think that Rankings within one region with a large pool (e.g the American Business Schools) can work with some applied logic. But Even then rankings can be dubious, let's leave the discussion to the folks over at BW

.

So how does one go on about ranking all non-American schools amongst themselves? These schools are so different based on their location, their history and the cultures that it doesn't make sense (to me anyway).

However what makes sense is putting them in regional buckets and then putting them in the UE,E,NE buckets.

So to take India as an example, IIM-A might be an UE and Univ. of Bangalore (not sure if this even exists) may be a NE.

In short, let's compare apples with apples, and then accept that fruits can cater to quite different personal tastes

bsd_lover

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Re: Ranks and clusterings of various International b-schools [#permalink]

07 May 2009, 07:27

Hi Scorpio meta ranking is a good idea, however its difficult to come up with something that will please everyone.

I'm hesitant to put IMD in UE category for a two reasons :
1. Class size is way too small (appx 90 ?). Some might say selective, but I will say limited number of MBA alums worldwide to truly hit the UE status. IMD advertises its alum base to be 55,000, however the vast majority of them would be from either the EMBA or one of the other specialist courses.

2. Very low placements in Finance and MC. This can also be perhaps said to be a good thing. After all MBAs were designed to learn about business (i.e. industry), instead of being feeders for IB and MC. However, for a vast majority of MBA seekers, IMD's strength in industry, but lack of placements in IB/MC does not work.

I'm a big fan of IMD nonetheless. Their philosophy of getting folks with plenty of WE and then getting them to truly bond 6 days a week in idyllic Lausanne sounds like a remarkable social experiment that obviously works for the school.

scorpioguy wrote:

Based on all the rankings I would put IMD in the UE bucket.
One idea I have is to take multiple rankings of programs - eg: FT, EIU, BW and any others and come up with a meta ranking. I will take a stab at it sometime over this weekend.

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Re: Ranks and clusterings of various International b-schools [#permalink]

07 May 2009, 07:32

See my last post for my reasons for not including IMD in UE.

The RE category is NOT meant to be HIGHER than Trans Elite. The RE schools hold a special place within their own geography. However, schools such as Cranfield, Lancaster etc. compete with schools such as Oxford, Cambridge and LBS in the UK, so they can't be considered Regional elites. I will place RE below TE along with separating lines to make this distinction clearer. Thanks for pointing it out.

vbalex wrote:

Two objections. IMD is in UE. Second: you can't put Cranfield in the last category, since it is in all rankings over Bocconi, GISMA, ESMT, ASB, Rotman, etc. RSM is over Cranfield only in FT.

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Re: Ranks and clusterings of various International b-schools [#permalink]

07 May 2009, 07:41

buff great points. In fact that is exactly what I sought to do originally, but the task got a bit too big. So, I took the short cut by creating an RE bucket for the regionally strong schools that are not truly global. This RE bucket covers all the major regions, and I explicitly state that schools within the RE bucket are NOT peer schools unless they are in the same geography.

This way we'll initially cover all the major regions. If we find that we have a lot of folks interested in a specific region, we can then expand the rankings and add more schools for that region.

buffdaddy wrote:

I personally think that Rankings within one region with a large pool (e.g the American Business Schools) can work with some applied logic. But Even then rankings can be dubious, let's leave the discussion to the folks over at BW

.

So how does one go on about ranking all non-American schools amongst themselves? These schools are so different based on their location, their history and the cultures that it doesn't make sense (to me anyway).

However what makes sense is putting them in regional buckets and then putting them in the UE,E,NE buckets.

So to take India as an example, IIM-A might be an UE and Univ. of Bangalore (not sure if this even exists) may be a NE.

In short, let's compare apples with apples, and then accept that fruits can cater to quite different personal tastes

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Re: Ranks and clusterings of various International b-schools [#permalink]

07 May 2009, 08:51

I concur with those who think that IMD belongs to UE – although I understand bsdlover’s reasoning.

Of course, in the end of the day, it depends on how you define what is a UE and how it’s different from just E. But if accept this half-intuitive definition of ‘prestige’ (which may be based on several factors – brand recognition, strength of student body, quality of course, career opportunities, networking etc.), IMD is still perceived overall higher than Ox/Cam/HEC/Spanish schools – I mean indeed ‘overall’, and not just in a specific ‘GM/industry’- niche, where it is No 1 in Europe.

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Re: Ranks and clusterings of various International b-schools [#permalink]

09 May 2009, 18:49

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I am actually quite puzzled by the lack of love/respect (maybe both) that IMD gets in this forum. Perhaps it is the age issue, since IMD does look for MUCH more experience than most places.

IMD is a fantastic school. It is a school built by businesses, and it is a school for businesses. Note, IMD is NOT a school built by banks or consulting firm, it's a school built by BUSINESSES. What is your definition of an UE b-school? IMD qualifies in any definition that comes to my mind, that's why I don't see how it doesn't belong in the UE category.

I understand where bsd_lover is coming from but let me try to address his concerns.
1) Class size. Would you rather have a larger network that you know loosely or a much smaller but much more intimate network? Additionally, it is not the size of the network that matters, but the "value" of the network. IMD selects some of the most accomplished applicants from the world. In terms of accomplishment, I think IMD alums rank up there with the very best.
2) Finance and MC. Yes, these two industries offer some of the most competitive starting salaries coming out of b-school, however we are talking about BUSINESS schools, not banking or consulting schools. I don't necessarily even view this as a negative. As long as the placement stats are among the best, why should the industry matter that much? If IMD consistently places its graduates in fantastic companies with great compensation, should it matter what industries they are in if we're trying to compare UEs vs Es? Remember, we are trying to rank the very best BUSINESS schools, not just schools for banking and consulting.

Yes, IMD may not be the right school for the less experienced, nor for those wanting to make a career switch (note, this is for career switchers) into banking, nor for those who want to switch into consulting. However, it is an extremely competitive school to get into, it does offer a world-class education, it is academically rigorous and demanding, and it does offer an international network of amazingly successful alumni. In what area is IMD lacking that stops it from being classified as a UE? Some superficial like class size? Surely not!

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Re: Ranks and clusterings of various International b-schools [#permalink]

10 May 2009, 00:08

Great post xenok +1. I'm all for IMD's industry focus in terms of what a business school should be about (I even mention that in my last post). But, I dont control what the overwhelming majority wants a b-school for. After the crisis most of us have wondered about the higher purpose of a business school. But, whether rightly or wrongly, an elite contemporary business school is expected to have a certain qualities. If you consider all other ultra elite schools (H/S/W/K/B/M/C/LBS/Insead) they all share certain common traits. Class size and diverse placements are two of those qualities. Lumping IMD in this category just doesn't quite work for me.

But lets not be too hung up on IMD's status. IMD is a top school and if you go there, you will get an oustanding education; and no one will deny that (least of all me). What about some opinions on some of the other schools ? Am I being fair ? Do all the spanish schools deserve there Elite status ? Does the concept of Regional Elites work ?

xenok wrote:

I am actually quite puzzled by the lack of love/respect (maybe both) that IMD gets in this forum. Perhaps it is the age issue, since IMD does look for MUCH more experience than most places.

IMD is a fantastic school. It is a school built by businesses, and it is a school for businesses. Note, IMD is NOT a school built by banks or consulting firm, it's a school built by BUSINESSES. What is your definition of an UE b-school? IMD qualifies in any definition that comes to my mind, that's why I don't see how it doesn't belong in the UE category.

I understand where bsd_lover is coming from but let me try to address his concerns.
1) Class size. Would you rather have a larger network that you know loosely or a much smaller but much more intimate network? Additionally, it is not the size of the network that matters, but the "value" of the network. IMD selects some of the most accomplished applicants from the world. In terms of accomplishment, I think IMD alums rank up there with the very best.
2) Finance and MC. Yes, these two industries offer some of the most competitive starting salaries coming out of b-school, however we are talking about BUSINESS schools, not banking or consulting schools. I don't necessarily even view this as a negative. As long as the placement stats are among the best, why should the industry matter that much? If IMD consistently places its graduates in fantastic companies with great compensation, should it matter what industries they are in if we're trying to compare UEs vs Es? Remember, we are trying to rank the very best BUSINESS schools, not just schools for banking and consulting.

Yes, IMD may not be the right school for the less experienced, nor for those wanting to make a career switch (note, this is for career switchers) into banking, nor for those who want to switch into consulting. However, it is an extremely competitive school to get into, it does offer a world-class education, it is academically rigorous and demanding, and it does offer an international network of amazingly successful alumni. In what area is IMD lacking that stops it from being classified as a UE? Some superficial like class size? Surely not!

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Re: Ranks and clusterings of various International b-schools [#permalink]

13 May 2009, 13:48

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Useful post. But I am surprised you don't have Warwick here, not even on Regional elite!
It is easily an Trans-elite from what I know. It was the first business school in the UK to gain triple accreditation. It was ranked 29th in the world in 2008 by the FT and been around that for the last 5 yrs. It is definitely ranked above Cass and Imperial in all these rankings.

To compare with Cranfield as my other post says,
Cranfield
Average Age: 32 years, work ex: 8 yrs
40 nationalities
150 students
Alumni: 11,000 contacts in 115 countries

Warwick
Average Age: 32 years, work ex: 8 yrs,
24 Nationalities
70 students
Alumni: 24,000 graduates in over 130 countries

This is from my limited knowledge, any comments appreciated.

bsd_lover

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Re: Ranks and clusterings of various International b-schools [#permalink]

13 May 2009, 16:51

Thanks humblewinner I've added it to the TE category.

humblewinner wrote:

Useful post. But I am surprised you don't have Warwick here, not even on Regional elite!
It is easily an Trans-elite from what I know. It was the first business school in the UK to gain triple accreditation. It was ranked 29th in the world in 2008 by the FT and been around that for the last 5 yrs. It is definitely ranked above Cass and Imperial in all these rankings.

To compare with Cranfield as my other post says,
Cranfield
Average Age: 32 years, work ex: 8 yrs
40 nationalities
150 students
Alumni: 11,000 contacts in 115 countries

Warwick
Average Age: 32 years, work ex: 8 yrs,
24 Nationalities
70 students
Alumni: 24,000 graduates in over 130 countries

This is from my limited knowledge, any comments appreciated.

devil420

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Re: Ranks and clusterings of various International b-schools [#permalink]

Updated on: 18 May 2009, 18:43

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Great initiative bsd_lover. i was mulling to do the same . even i agree that IMD belongs to the ultra elite though i agree with your logic nevertheless I believe IMD makes the UE league even though by a whisker.

In india one cannot lump all IIM`s together as there are many younger IIMs(Indore , shillong etc) which obviously are not in the same league. perhaps one can add just IIM Ahmedabad and Banglore as regional elites here.

similarly IMHO spanish schools though very good are truly not elites but can be very potent RE but not elite. it is like saying that if you want to work in India IIM A(a RE) is better than Harvard but for working anywhere in rest of the world a harvard is a harvard. same applies to spanish schools. other opinions are solicited

Originally posted by devil420 on 14 May 2009, 19:15.
Last edited by devil420 on 18 May 2009, 18:43, edited 1 time in total.

bsd_lover

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Re: Ranks and clusterings of various International b-schools [#permalink]

18 May 2009, 15:45

Thanks devil. I've been giving the rankings of the Spanish schools a lot of thought. However, I've never met too many of the Spanish schools' grads. So, for now, I'm just going by what most major rankings seem to suggest about these schools. I'd like some folks with experiences with the Spanish schools to provide more data points and information on whether all the 3 Spanish schools deserve the E status or would some of them fit the TE category more or RE category more.

I've also updated the IIM to be IIM-K,B,C as the primary Indian regional elites (besides ISB).

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Re: Ranks and clusterings of various International b-schools [#permalink]

20 May 2009, 20:59

I've added an extra subcluster of Near Elite schools. This comprises of schools that are close to Elite status and will probably catch up to this status in a few years; however, are not quite there yet. I'd like to hear some feedback around this.

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Re: Ranks and clusterings of various International b-schools [#permalink]

27 May 2009, 09:35

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bsd_lover wrote:

*edit by bsd_lover - lets just keep one version of this list at the top

Nice job putting together the list!

I find it difficult to accept all those British schools (except LBS, Oxford, Cambridge, and Manchester) classified into the Near and Trans Elite buckets," yet put St. Gallen into a regional bucket.... :wink:

Joking aside, I am not recommending placing my MBA program into the same league as the top 9 European business schools, but I do question why such schools as Cass, Cranfield, Lancaster, Imperial, or Warwick would garner "Trans Elite" or "Near Elite" status when they are virtually unheard of outside of UK/Ireland. Hence, they should be classified as "regional elite" schools. OK, I understand you're following the FT rankings, but don't forget the British-centric bias. St. Gallen, the overall university, is regarded with the same prestige as Harvard/Wharton in the USA in the context of Switzerland/Germany/Austria. Can that be said about any of the UK b-schools besides LBS and "Oxbridge"?

On another note, I would take out GISMA and ESMT from regional elites for Germany, and I would replace them with Mannheim and WHU which have much, much stronger reputations as b-schools.

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Re: Ranks and clusterings of various International b-schools [#permalink]

27 May 2009, 16:17

Hi trader1,

Regional Elite is in no way inferior to Trans Elite. Within their specific regions, regional elites are actually superior to Trans Elites. For instance if you graduate from say Lancaster and want to work in India - there is no way that Lancaster would be better than say IIM. Similarly, Tsinghua in China is considered UE in its region etc. Perhaps it makes more sense to put the TE schools as REs. Trouble is that those TE schools can't be considered REs either because within their region they also compete with UEs and Es (such as Oxbridge/LBS). Any thoughts ?

Thanks for the Germany info +1. I've updated the list accordingly.

trader1 wrote:

Nice job putting together the list!

I find it difficult to accept all those British schools (except LBS, Oxford, Cambridge, and Manchester) classified into the Near and Trans Elite buckets," yet put St. Gallen into a regional bucket.... :wink:

Joking aside, I am not recommending placing my MBA program into the same league as the top 9 European business schools, but I do question why such schools as Cass, Cranfield, Lancaster, Imperial, or Warwick would garner "Trans Elite" or "Near Elite" status when they are virtually unheard of outside of UK/Ireland. Hence, they should be classified as "regional elite" schools. OK, I understand you're following the FT rankings, but don't forget the British-centric bias. St. Gallen, the overall university, is regarded with the same prestige as Harvard/Wharton in the USA in the context of Switzerland/Germany/Austria. Can that be said about any of the UK b-schools besides LBS and "Oxbridge"?

On another note, I would take out GISMA and ESMT from regional elites for Germany, and I would replace them with Mannheim and WHU which have much, much stronger reputations as b-schools.

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Re: Ranks and clusterings of various International b-schools [#permalink]

27 May 2009, 16:46

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It's really hard to distinguish Trans and Near elites from Regional elites. I think the situation is similar of US schools and I think I understand why you have put british schools such as Cass, Lancaster and Warwick in NE and TE clusters.

Lets compare them to US schools that are Elites but lack global recognition. For this example I would use UVA Darden and UNC Kenan Flagler. These schools are in elite cluster but truly are regional schools since they have very limited recognition outside East Coast. Outside of what? East Coast? What other recognition do you need? Graduates from these schools will compete for most prestigeous and highest paid jobs in the Wall Street. On the West Coast, graduate from one of these probably wouldn't perform that well in the labor market, don't even mention outside USA. Outside USA I assume University of Virginia = University of North Carolina = University of Colorado = University of North Dakota. Said but true. Nevertheless, can you say UVA and UNC aren't elites but RE? Probably not beacuse their graduates earn 120k+ earnings in New York on a regular basis.

Now to the british schools... They are truly REs but they compete with LBS and Oxbridge for highly paid financial services positions in London. Yes, they have almost no recognition outside of UK, but can't be considered true REs because their graduates live in London and earn GBP100k+ salaries. Of course, we are talking here in the terms of the normal market conditions, before this crisis. Could someone expect to find such a position in Milan after graduation from SDA Bocconi in Milan or RSM in Amsterdam. Well, I wish them all the best luck, but I doubt my wishes be of any help...

I think that is the reason bsd_lover put those schools in NE and TE bracket. US and British schools have some privileged status because of Wall Street and London. Anything that put one in the position to work in such a financial center and earn huge salary can't be really considered local school.

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Re: Ranks and clusterings of various International b-schools [#permalink]

18 Jul 2009, 21:01

Where would "University of Toronto" be in the list?

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Re: Ranks and clusterings of various International b-schools [#permalink]

19 Jul 2009, 16:16

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The business school of University of Toronto is called Rotman, which is on the list classified as a regional elite under the Canadian Schools.

eresh wrote:

Where would "University of Toronto" be in the list?

gmatclubot

Re: Ranks and clusterings of various International b-schools [#permalink]

19 Jul 2009, 16:16