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21 Jun 2021, 13:48
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Hi everyone,
I recently stumbled on this forum after looking into helping a fellow undergrad with GMAT prep. Nice site!
I started thinking about the GMAT and how it helped me prep for b-school. When I decided to apply, I had been out of school for 15 years, which is a long time not to be taking any exams or going to class. I also ran my own business and had nobody to answer to except my customers. Some perspectives:
1) I had a definite goal to attend a top B-school and get at least a 710. I took both The Economist (got me to 710) and Veritas Prep (bump to 730) to achieve this score. The testing really helped me to "get prepped" for business school, in a logic and reasoning sense. Sure, the quant refresh was good, but it was really the logic verbal section that was FAR more useful in real-world scenarios. I attended a top 30 b-school, mostly due to geography, and was one of the top 5% of students, especially when we moved away from "regurgitation" courses into logic-based strategy/marketing strategy/consulting/statement analysis courses. The verbal logic prep really helped me hone in on developing and refining my DIKW pyramid skills.
2) 2 thoughts on which b-school to attend: I attended a lower-rated school but with top-notch professors. I found that 20% of my class were people that could have gone to any school but that stayed local, while 30% of my class did not belong in b-school and did a great job at pulling down our ratings (I suspect that parents were paying full $ and then more in donations-the % of students whose families owned private jets at my school was about the same as the % of Subarus on the road). GMAT was fairly highly correlated with the top people in my class, but not always. Some very smart people cruised in with a 650 but didn't put in the prep time. However, I didn't meet anyone who scored over 700 and was sub-par. So, if you do well on the GMAT, chances are that you will do well in B-school. With that said, recruiting at a school outside of the top 20 can be rough. If you are going to be a bigger fish in a smaller pond, be prepared to jump through extra hoops. You won't get the benefit of the doubt that people from Wharton/Booth/Harvard/Kellogg get. That being said, I wanted to be a strategy consultant and cased with many folks from these schools. They weren't any brighter than the top tier at my school, so don't be intimidated. It is just harder to get in the door. Speaking of harder, it is much more difficult to gain admission (and find employment) when you are approaching 40, as I was. Age profiling is a serious issue....don't let anyone tell you otherwise. I was told this by several ex-recruiters (and current recruiters, 3 drinks in...).
3) I was able to snag a position at a top-tier (but smaller) general strategy consulting firm. I made the "post final-round wait list" at Bain but honestly, they are looking for someone younger. Don't overlook smaller firms if you are slightly older and more polished: you may be required to wear more hats at a smaller firm and that requires a different skillset than a 28-year old may have. My firm feels like a much better fit; I get paid 85% of MBB salary (with the same 85% increase over time) but the demands aren't quite as intense and burnout just doesn't happen as often. Honestly, I am not really upset about making $170k this year instead of $200k at Bain, or that as a manager here in 4 years I will pull down $375k vs $425k at Bain. The GMAT gave me the tools to start building the blocks necessary to do well on case interviews for strategy consulting.
4) non-GMAT related: grab internships in grad school. It will help you build street cred and have access-able content ready for job interviews. Don't focus too much on grades: a 3.6 is typically adequate (I had a 3.72). A very smart friend focused on grades (with a 3.9) and can't find a job. Networking and internships opened doors (I did private equity, restructuring, and venture capital). Go with fit, not brand name. Smart people will get good roles and make plenty of money.
5) Certain schools are well known for certain industry ties, so make that a point when choosing.
Overall, the GMAT (and many hours of case prep with ex-Bain and McKinsey friends) really helped me to do well in grad school and land a top-tier job. Having a 730 on your resume won't get you a job but will impress some employers. Others will write you off-"too smart and will get bored". This is typical in Real Estate and banking-client advisory type roles. You may want to skip the GMAT on those apps. One guy at JP Morgan told me "whoa-730: we don't normally see that number around these parts". Getting that really high verbal score WILL help you later on in terms of asking the follow up questions and solving complex problems. Plus, it helps with scholarship money and bragging rights. I got lots of "benefit of the doubt" due to my high GMAT compared with my peers.
I recently stumbled on this forum after looking into helping a fellow undergrad with GMAT prep. Nice site!
I started thinking about the GMAT and how it helped me prep for b-school. When I decided to apply, I had been out of school for 15 years, which is a long time not to be taking any exams or going to class. I also ran my own business and had nobody to answer to except my customers. Some perspectives:
1) I had a definite goal to attend a top B-school and get at least a 710. I took both The Economist (got me to 710) and Veritas Prep (bump to 730) to achieve this score. The testing really helped me to "get prepped" for business school, in a logic and reasoning sense. Sure, the quant refresh was good, but it was really the logic verbal section that was FAR more useful in real-world scenarios. I attended a top 30 b-school, mostly due to geography, and was one of the top 5% of students, especially when we moved away from "regurgitation" courses into logic-based strategy/marketing strategy/consulting/statement analysis courses. The verbal logic prep really helped me hone in on developing and refining my DIKW pyramid skills.
2) 2 thoughts on which b-school to attend: I attended a lower-rated school but with top-notch professors. I found that 20% of my class were people that could have gone to any school but that stayed local, while 30% of my class did not belong in b-school and did a great job at pulling down our ratings (I suspect that parents were paying full $ and then more in donations-the % of students whose families owned private jets at my school was about the same as the % of Subarus on the road). GMAT was fairly highly correlated with the top people in my class, but not always. Some very smart people cruised in with a 650 but didn't put in the prep time. However, I didn't meet anyone who scored over 700 and was sub-par. So, if you do well on the GMAT, chances are that you will do well in B-school. With that said, recruiting at a school outside of the top 20 can be rough. If you are going to be a bigger fish in a smaller pond, be prepared to jump through extra hoops. You won't get the benefit of the doubt that people from Wharton/Booth/Harvard/Kellogg get. That being said, I wanted to be a strategy consultant and cased with many folks from these schools. They weren't any brighter than the top tier at my school, so don't be intimidated. It is just harder to get in the door. Speaking of harder, it is much more difficult to gain admission (and find employment) when you are approaching 40, as I was. Age profiling is a serious issue....don't let anyone tell you otherwise. I was told this by several ex-recruiters (and current recruiters, 3 drinks in...).
3) I was able to snag a position at a top-tier (but smaller) general strategy consulting firm. I made the "post final-round wait list" at Bain but honestly, they are looking for someone younger. Don't overlook smaller firms if you are slightly older and more polished: you may be required to wear more hats at a smaller firm and that requires a different skillset than a 28-year old may have. My firm feels like a much better fit; I get paid 85% of MBB salary (with the same 85% increase over time) but the demands aren't quite as intense and burnout just doesn't happen as often. Honestly, I am not really upset about making $170k this year instead of $200k at Bain, or that as a manager here in 4 years I will pull down $375k vs $425k at Bain. The GMAT gave me the tools to start building the blocks necessary to do well on case interviews for strategy consulting.
4) non-GMAT related: grab internships in grad school. It will help you build street cred and have access-able content ready for job interviews. Don't focus too much on grades: a 3.6 is typically adequate (I had a 3.72). A very smart friend focused on grades (with a 3.9) and can't find a job. Networking and internships opened doors (I did private equity, restructuring, and venture capital). Go with fit, not brand name. Smart people will get good roles and make plenty of money.
5) Certain schools are well known for certain industry ties, so make that a point when choosing.
Overall, the GMAT (and many hours of case prep with ex-Bain and McKinsey friends) really helped me to do well in grad school and land a top-tier job. Having a 730 on your resume won't get you a job but will impress some employers. Others will write you off-"too smart and will get bored". This is typical in Real Estate and banking-client advisory type roles. You may want to skip the GMAT on those apps. One guy at JP Morgan told me "whoa-730: we don't normally see that number around these parts". Getting that really high verbal score WILL help you later on in terms of asking the follow up questions and solving complex problems. Plus, it helps with scholarship money and bragging rights. I got lots of "benefit of the doubt" due to my high GMAT compared with my peers.
21 Jun 2021, 18:58
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Thanks so much for your post! And welcome to GMAT Club!
Congratulations on going through the experience and getting a consulting job. I totally agree with all of your points. I feel every business school and every program has a fair share of people who either are or appear to be dragging it down. I feel a lot of the business school students who post reviews and GMAT Club the most frustrated about their peers and other students and feel like they’re not measuring up. I definitely had that feeling but I changed it about a few folks later on when I really got to know them. However, they appeared like total party animals on the surface. Sam did that for the image in reality were very capable.
I would be curious about your feedback or critique of my post: how old is too old for an MBA. I’m not arguing by the way that anyone is too old I’m simply summarizing the current state of affairs. Would love your take on it and please feel free to disagree completely. It will definitely help future applicants to make a more informed decision.
https://gmatclub.com/forum/old-for-an-mba-352223.html
Posted from my mobile device
Congratulations on going through the experience and getting a consulting job. I totally agree with all of your points. I feel every business school and every program has a fair share of people who either are or appear to be dragging it down. I feel a lot of the business school students who post reviews and GMAT Club the most frustrated about their peers and other students and feel like they’re not measuring up. I definitely had that feeling but I changed it about a few folks later on when I really got to know them. However, they appeared like total party animals on the surface. Sam did that for the image in reality were very capable.
I would be curious about your feedback or critique of my post: how old is too old for an MBA. I’m not arguing by the way that anyone is too old I’m simply summarizing the current state of affairs. Would love your take on it and please feel free to disagree completely. It will definitely help future applicants to make a more informed decision.
https://gmatclub.com/forum/old-for-an-mba-352223.html
Posted from my mobile device
21 Jun 2021, 19:06
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bb
Sure, I will follow up!
I certainly don't think anyone is "too old" for an MBA. It was just that I graduated college, worked as an engineer, and when that company went under, ended up starting a very successful business that I eventually got bored with, sold, and wanted to learn more and work for someone else. However, recruiting for MBA candidates is very specialized. Someone older may be viewed as a risk. Perhaps they won't work for a younger supervisor? Perhaps they aren't as hungry as a 30-year old? None of these are realistic concerns, but in a larger firm, the hiring manager who brings in a typical standard 29-year old Stanford graduate who doesn't work out won't get questioned. "Well, you win some and lose some". Bring in someone who doesn't fit that box and washes out, and the HR manager has to defend the decision. I was my own boss for years and it never occurred to me to profile like this: my best employees were a guy who didn't go to college and a retired engineer. My worst were people who, on paper, were rockstars. However, most organizations are risk adverse and won't go that route. It is like the old adage: "nobody ever got fired for buying IBM'.
