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If among the first ten cyclists who crossed the finish line,

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If among the first ten cyclists who crossed the finish line,  [#permalink]

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New post 30 Nov 2009, 04:56
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A
B
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D
E

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If among the first ten cyclists who crossed the finish line, 4 were Italians and 8 represented Telefonica team, how many cyclists who represented Telefonica team and finished in the top ten were not Italians?

(1) 2 Italians who finished in the top ten did not represent Telefonica team.
(2) Each of the top ten finishers either was an Italian or represented Telefonica team or both.

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Re: If among the first ten cyclists who crossed the finish line,  [#permalink]

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Re: Italians and telefonica  [#permalink]

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New post 30 Nov 2009, 05:10
I beleive the OA is D for the following reason,
Among the first ten cyclists who crossed the finish line, 4 were Italians and 8 represented Telefonica team

And from 1 we know that 2 Italians who finished in the top ten did not represent Telefonica team

So the rest have to be from Telefonica team and from those 8, 2 have to be italian (total 4 italians crossed the line).

so total 6 non italians belonging Telefonica team were among the first 10 who crossed the finish line

thus 1 is sufficient

And 2 says that Each of the top ten finishers either was an Italian or represented Telefonica team or both.

And the only possiblity is 2 italians not belonging to telefonica
8 italians and non- italians belonging to telefonica and 2 have to be italian (total 4 italians crossed the line).

so total 6 non italians belonging Telefonica team were among the first 10 who crossed the finish line

thus 2 is sufficient.
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Re: Italians and telefonica  [#permalink]

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New post 30 Nov 2009, 05:13
rathoreaditya81 wrote:
If among the first ten cyclists who crossed the finish line, 4 were Italians and 8 represented Telefonica team, how many cyclists who represented Telefonica team and finished in the top ten were not Italians?

1. 2 Italians who finished in the top ten did not represent Telefonica team.
2. Each of the top ten finishers either was an Italian or represented Telefonica team or both.


Question Stem : Overlap between Italians and Telefonica team = (8 + 4) - 10 = 2
This tells us that out of the four Italians, at least 2 are on the telefonica team.

St. (1) : 2 out of 4 Italians are not on the team.
Since we are given that out of the 4 italians 2 are not on the team, we can conclude that there are a max. of 2 italians on the team who finished in the top ten. Therefore, there are 6 non italians.
Sufficient.

St. (2) : Each of the top ten finishers either was an Italian or represented Telefonica team or both.
Out of the top 10, two are not telefonica members. Thus they have to be Italians. This again implies that 2 out of 4 Italians are not telefonica members. Thus there will be 6 non Italians on the team.
Sufficient.

Answer : D
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Re: Italians and telefonica  [#permalink]

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New post 30 Nov 2009, 05:28
sriharimurthy wrote:
rathoreaditya81 wrote:
If among the first ten cyclists who crossed the finish line, 4 were Italians and 8 represented Telefonica team, how many cyclists who represented Telefonica team and finished in the top ten were not Italians?

1. 2 Italians who finished in the top ten did not represent Telefonica team.
2. Each of the top ten finishers either was an Italian or represented Telefonica team or both.


Question Stem : Overlap between Italians and Telefonica team = (8 + 4) - 10 = 2
This tells us that out of the four Italians, at least 2 are on the telefonica team.

St. (1) : 2 out of 4 Italians are not on the team.
Since we are given that out of the 4 italians 2 are not on the team, we can conclude that there are a max. of 2 italians on the team who finished in the top ten. Therefore, there are 6 non italians.
Sufficient.

St. (2) : Each of the top ten finishers either was an Italian or represented Telefonica team or both.
Out of the top 10, two are not telefonica members. Thus they have to be Italians. This again implies that 2 out of 4 Italians are not telefonica members. Thus there will be 6 non Italians on the team.
Sufficient.

Answer : D


Oh yes ..it ought to be D and OA is indeed D.
Can't believe how did I get A ..it is obvious as daylight!

Thanks guys!
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Re: If among the first ten cyclists who crossed the finish line,  [#permalink]

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New post 25 Nov 2011, 14:01
I got the answer as (E) ... :(

I approached it in this way. If "I" is itallian , "T" is telefonica , "x" is both italian and telephonica , "y" is neither italian nor telephonica.

So , I+T-x + y = 10

Statement 1 : I-x +y=2 or T = 8 , but we want T-x . Insufficient
Statement 2 : y=0 , so I+T-x = 10 , but we want T-x . Insufficient.

Combining both statements , T-x = 10-I=10-2+x-y or T-2x=8 (as y=0) . Not helpful as we want T-x.

Somebody please correct me , if I made a mistake here. I have assumed that there are people who do not belong telephonica or are Italian , because nothing is specified in the question stem. It is only statement 2 that is mandating such a condition.
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Re: If among the first ten cyclists who crossed the finish line,  [#permalink]

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New post 25 Nov 2011, 14:15
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thisiszico2006 wrote:
I got the answer as (E) ... :(

I approached it in this way. If "I" is itallian , "T" is telefonica , "x" is both italian and telephonica , "y" is neither italian nor telephonica.

So , I+T-x + y = 10

Statement 1 : I-x +y=2 or T = 8 , but we want T-x . Insufficient
Statement 2 : y=0 , so I+T-x = 10 , but we want T-x . Insufficient.

Combining both statements , T-x = 10-I=10-2+x-y or T-2x=8 (as y=0) . Not helpful as we want T-x.

Somebody please correct me , if I made a mistake here. I have assumed that there are people who do not belong telephonica or are Italian , because nothing is specified in the question stem. It is only statement 2 that is mandating such a condition.


I believe that statement 2 translates to Neither = 0

Question Stem tells us that out of the 10 people who finished first, 4 were Italians and 6 were not. Moreover it tells us that 8 are members of Telefonica and 2 are not.

Statement 1 tells us that out of the 4 Italians 2 are members of telefonica are 2 are not. Since there is a total of 8 members of Tefefonica it means that 2 of them are Italians and the other 6 are not. Sufficient

Statement 2 tells us that people who are neither Italian or member of telefonica is 0. Which is Sufficient to answer the Question.

Therefore D.
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Re: If among the first ten cyclists who crossed the finish line,  [#permalink]

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New post 25 Nov 2011, 14:29
@sonygmat

exactly , that's what I meant by 'y=0'
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Re: If among the first ten cyclists who crossed the finish line,  [#permalink]

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New post 25 Nov 2011, 14:35
If among the first ten cyclists who crossed the finish line, 4 were Italians and 8 represented Telefonica team, how many cyclists who represented Telefonica team and finished in the top ten were not Italians?

To me this does not stipulate that th ere cannot be any person who is neither italian nor represented telephonica team. We cannot assume that unless it is categorically mentioned as in statement 2.
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Re: If among the first ten cyclists who crossed the finish line,  [#permalink]

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New post 25 Nov 2011, 14:47
thisiszico2006 wrote:
@sonygmat

exactly , that's what I meant by 'y=0'


Why would you need y to answer statement 1?

We know from question stem that:

(ITALIANS)= (ONLY ITALIANS) + (ITALIANS AND MEMBERS OF TELEFONICA) --->

4 = (ONLY ITALIANS) + (ITALIANS AND MEMBERS OF TELEFONICA) (1)

And that:

(TELEFONICA MEMBERS)=(ONLY TELEFONICA MEMBERS)+ (ITALIAN AND TELEFONICA MEMBERS) --->

8 =(ONLY TELEFONICA MEMBERS)+ (ITALIAN AND TELEFONICA MEMBERS) (2)

From statement 1 we know that

(ONLY ITALIANS)=2 : (1)---> (ITALIANS AND MEMBERS OF TELEFONICA)=2 : (2)--->(ONLY TELEFONICA MEMBERS)=8-2=6.

Sufficient.
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Re: If among the first ten cyclists who crossed the finish line,  [#permalink]

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New post 25 Nov 2011, 14:50
thisiszico2006 wrote:
If among the first ten cyclists who crossed the finish line, 4 were Italians and 8 represented Telefonica team, how many cyclists who represented Telefonica team and finished in the top ten were not Italians?

To me this does not stipulate that th ere cannot be any person who is neither italian nor represented telephonica team. We cannot assume that unless it is categorically mentioned as in statement 2.


I totally agree with you. But we don't need the (Total number of cyclists) nor (the number of people who are not Italian nor members of telefonica) to answer to conclude that statement 1 is sufficient.

Unless someone might say that there could be someone who is half Italian half English. In that case there could be a potential overlap..
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Re: If among the first ten cyclists who crossed the finish line,  [#permalink]

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New post 25 Nov 2011, 21:39
Thanks , I got the mistakes.

In Statement 1 , I assumed that there are only 2 italians who finished the race.

In Statement 2 , we need to find x , so x= I+T-10=4+8-10=2 , so T-x=8-2=6

So answer choice (D) is indeed the correct one.
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Re: If among the first ten cyclists who crossed the finish line,  [#permalink]

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New post 13 Oct 2013, 07:05
rathoreaditya81 wrote:
If among the first ten cyclists who crossed the finish line, 4 were Italians and 8 represented Telefonica team, how many cyclists who represented Telefonica team and finished in the top ten were not Italians?

1. 2 Italians who finished in the top ten did not represent Telefonica team.
2. Each of the top ten finishers either was an Italian or represented Telefonica team or both.


For me it's (D) but still the problem is poorly phrased. Let me explain why, mind you

In statement (1), when they say 2 italians who finished in the top 10 did not represent the Telefonica team. It is just talking about two of them, we don't know for sure if within the other 2 there might be someone else that did not represent the Telefonica team. A better phrasing would have been of those italians that finished on the top 10, 2 did not represent the Telefonica team. But still one has to make the assumption that they are not playing tricks and that the intended meaning was that. Nevertheless, I hope the real GMAT doesn't have this types of wordiness.

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Re: If among the first ten cyclists who crossed the finish line,  [#permalink]

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New post 13 Oct 2013, 09:13
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rathoreaditya81 wrote:
If among the first ten cyclists who crossed the finish line, 4 were Italians and 8 represented Telefonica team, how many cyclists who represented Telefonica team and finished in the top ten were not Italians?

(1) 2 Italians who finished in the top ten did not represent Telefonica team.
(2) Each of the top ten finishers either was an Italian or represented Telefonica team or both.

M14-19


If among the first ten cyclists who crossed the finish line, 4 were Italians and 8 represented Telefonica team, how many cyclists who represented Telefonica team and finished in the top ten were not Italians?

(1) 2 Italians who finished in the top ten did not represent Telefonica team --> since 2 Italians did not represent Telefonica team then remaining 2 Italians did represent Telefonica team, hence out of 8 cyclists who represented Telefonica team 8-2=6 were not Italians. Sufficient.

(2) Each of the top ten finishers either was an Italian or represented Telefonica team or both --> Total=Italians +Telefonica-Both --> 10=4+8-Both --> Both=2. So, 2 cyclists represented Telefonica and were Italians, which means that 8-2=6 cyclists represented Telefonica but were not Italians. Sufficient.

Answer: D.
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Re: If among the first ten cyclists who crossed the finish line,  [#permalink]

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New post 07 Jul 2016, 06:49
Bunuel pls hlp ...
If among the first ten cyclists who crossed the finish line, 4 were Italians and 8 represented Telefonica team, how many cyclists who represented Telefonica team and finished in the top ten were not Italians?

10=4+8-x ...x=2 ; so Italians in Telefonica team(x) is 2 ; so cyclists who represented Telefonica team and finished in the top ten who were not Italians = 8-2 = 6
I felt the question needs no statements ..please help me understand what is wrong in my interpretation??
thanks
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Re: If among the first ten cyclists who crossed the finish line, 4 were It  [#permalink]

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New post 10 Jul 2016, 21:14
1) With the Italian non-Telefonica number of 2, we can find the number of Italian Telefonica. With that we can find out the number of non-italian Telefonica. Suff
2) Statement 2 means number of non-italian non-telefonica is 0, but with that we cannot find the non-italian telefonica numbers. there are more than one possibilities. not suff.

Answer is A
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Re: If among the first ten cyclists who crossed the finish line,  [#permalink]

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New post 12 Jul 2016, 01:54
From the question itself - we know that We have 2 people who are both - Tele + Italian....
So, according to me, we even need not read choice A and B to get the answer. I got D even without reading the two choices.
Can anyone prove me wrong... It looks like I am missing something.
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Re: If among the first ten cyclists who crossed the finish line,  [#permalink]

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New post 27 Dec 2016, 13:37
The following may help those stating that the information given in neither 1 nor 2 is not sufficient.

Green = this information is given by the respective portion of the prompt.
Blue = this information can be deduced from the green
Highlighted cell = the number we need in order to say the information provided is sufficient

You can see that the possibility of Not Italian, Not Telefonica IS accounted for, as seen in its respective cell.

Hope this helps.
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Re: If among the first ten cyclists who crossed the finish line,  [#permalink]

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New post 13 Jan 2018, 03:12
rathoreaditya81 wrote:
If among the first ten cyclists who crossed the finish line, 4 were Italians and 8 represented Telefonica team, how many cyclists who represented Telefonica team and finished in the top ten were not Italians?

(1) 2 Italians who finished in the top ten did not represent Telefonica team.
(2) Each of the top ten finishers either was an Italian or represented Telefonica team or both.

M14-19


Hello chetan2u,

In my opinion even without using the information given in either statements we can find the required number of people.
From the figure below:
a+b+c=10
a+b=4
b+c=8
And we straight away know from the above 3 equations that a=b=2 and c=6.

So my questions is that why do we require statement 1 and 2? Is it really a DS question? Or Am I missing something here?

Regards
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Re: If among the first ten cyclists who crossed the finish line,  [#permalink]

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New post 13 Jan 2018, 03:25
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gmatexam439 wrote:
rathoreaditya81 wrote:
If among the first ten cyclists who crossed the finish line, 4 were Italians and 8 represented Telefonica team, how many cyclists who represented Telefonica team and finished in the top ten were not Italians?

(1) 2 Italians who finished in the top ten did not represent Telefonica team.
(2) Each of the top ten finishers either was an Italian or represented Telefonica team or both.

M14-19


Hello chetan2u,

In my opinion even without using the information given in either statements we can find the required number of people.
From the figure below:
a+b+c=10
a+b=4
b+c=8
And we straight away know from the above 3 equations that a=b=2 and c=6.

So my questions is that why do we require statement 1 and 2? Is it really a DS question? Or Am I missing something here?

Regards


Hi..
You are wrong in taking a+b+c=10..
It is nowhere mentioned that all 10 are either a and c..
It is possible that all 4italians are Telefonica, so a is part of c, and a =b..
So the remaining two may be American, Indian, Chinese..
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Re: If among the first ten cyclists who crossed the finish line,   [#permalink] 13 Jan 2018, 03:25

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