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The Federal Reserve announcement said that growth had accelerated afte

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Re: The Federal Reserve announcement said that growth had accelerated afte  [#permalink]

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New post 29 Aug 2019, 09:05
Hello

I am new to GMAT and studying SC from Manhattan Prep SC guide. On the page 217 in Chapter 11 (GM/S-V/Parallelism: Extra) the book reads
Quote
The main exception to this pattern seems to be the verb say. Somewhat oddly, the GMAT does not
require you to put that after the verb say.
Right: The water was so cold that people SAID polar bears would shiver.
The GMAT does not explain why this omission is acceptable, but the reason is probably that there is
very little chance of confusion:

Unquote

Please help me understand this paradox, Any help will be much appreciated.

Thanks
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Re: The Federal Reserve announcement said that growth had accelerated afte  [#permalink]

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New post 10 Oct 2019, 05:20
Dear Expert,

I'd like to get some clarifications with this question. Yes, it's about the past perfect tense again.

1. How can we be certain that the action of acceleration happens before the announcement? Couldn't it happen at the same time?

2. If the answer to the above question is that something has to happen before you say it happens, then what about examples of sentences we say all the time, "He knew he was right" "He said he saw the car coming in" etc. Shouldn't they be "He knew he had been right" and "He said he had seen the car coming in" etc.?

3. From a few creditable resources (Manhattan and Magoosh), we've acknowledged that we wouldn't have to use past perfect if that tense is understood from the context. If by using "said" to describe an action, we should immediately know that that action must have happened before saying. That means the past perfect tense is understood. Then wouldn't "had accelerated" be redundant?

4. If reported speech in the past requires past perfect tense for the thing described, then is it the general rule that there's not EVER any question that uses perfect tense in both, and something like "The authority said that the economy slowed down" or "The officials reported that people liked the recent data" would always be wrong?

Thank you!
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Re: The Federal Reserve announcement said that growth had accelerated afte  [#permalink]

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New post 06 Dec 2019, 16:56
GMATNinja wrote:
rohitasthana51 wrote:
Hello

I am new to GMAT and studying SC from Manhattan Prep SC guide. On the page 217 in Chapter 11 (GM/S-V/Parallelism: Extra) the book reads
Quote
The main exception to this pattern seems to be the verb say. Somewhat oddly, the GMAT does not
require you to put that after the verb say.
Right: The water was so cold that people SAID polar bears would shiver.
The GMAT does not explain why this omission is acceptable, but the reason is probably that there is
very little chance of confusion:

Unquote

Please help me understand this paradox, Any help will be much appreciated.

Thanks

As the Manhattan guide notes, the question of whether it's preferable to use "that" really comes down to whether the meaning is clear without it. There's no hard rule here. Consider the following example:

    "Tim recommends that you try his two-month-old sushi, unless you're worried about intestinal parasites and vomiting."

Here, you'd probably want to use "that." Not because it's required, but because without "that," the sentence becomes slightly more confusing.

    "Tim recommends you try his two-month old sushi, unless you're worried about intestinal parasites and vomiting."

Is this a definitive grammatical error? No. But because Tim could also recommend "you" for something, you might have to read this sentence more than once to figure out that Tim isn't recommending a person, the way you might recommend someone for a job; he's recommending that the person do something. The word "that" clarifies the meaning in the first example, so it's better, even if the second example isn't technically wrong.

When it comes to "said" there's less ambiguity. For example:

    "Tim said you should avoid eating rotten food in general, and if you don't, it's not really his problem."

Here, even without "that" no reasonable reader would interpret this sentence to mean that Tim said the word "you." The reason, of course, is that when we're trying to capture an exact quote, we use, well, quotes. So again, this is not officially a rule, but because this scenario lacks the same kind of confusion that we see in the examples with "recommend," the GMAT accepts it.

I hope that helps!


Dear GMATNinja,

I saw that you responded above to a question before mine. Would you please kindly help me with mine, too? I'm really mad at this question/ answer choice. Thanks a lot!
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Re: The Federal Reserve announcement said that growth had accelerated afte  [#permalink]

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New post 13 Dec 2019, 20:24
Few vs Little. Few used for countable. Little used for uncountable nouns. Few is correct here.
C D out
B. that missing growth had accelerated after slowing in the second quarter and that the policy makers remain concerned about the prospects of inflation, even though there are few
The federal announcement itself did not say ………………………. B out. Parallelism not maintained.
Btw A and E
A and E follow the same structure.
S+V THAT
What follows THAT is a new Subject Verb Pair.
E uses simple past tense, which is incorrect, said is the later event and accelerated is the past even.The earlier of multiple past events must use the past perfect.
A correct
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Re: The Federal Reserve announcement said that growth had accelerated afte  [#permalink]

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New post 17 Dec 2019, 15:36
Is there any good rule to know whether a noun is countable or not?

My intuition told me "sign" was not countable, but the answer was the opposite.

Thanks!
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Re: The Federal Reserve announcement said that growth had accelerated afte  [#permalink]

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New post 18 Dec 2019, 00:18
plumber250 wrote:
Hi Nikhil,

Let me see if I can help.

The part of the passage pertinent to your question is this

The Federal Reserve announcement said that growth had accelerated


I've highlighted the two verbs.

The key thing as you say is the difference with whether you need 'had'. And you're also correct in the meaning of the two different tenses.

What you've missed is the connection between 'said' and 'accelerated' - the acceleration needs to have happened prior to the saying - or else that would not make sense.

Said is simple past, so accelerated needs to be in the tense that indicates it was done before the simple past. So you need 'had'

James


with all respects, I do not know why we can defy "accelerated". "accelerated"here can show an action happen simultaneously with "said'.
yesterday I said he WAS DOING a good job and he IS a good student.
above sentence is correct. why choice e is incorrect?
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Re: The Federal Reserve announcement said that growth had accelerated afte  [#permalink]

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New post 12 Jan 2020, 23:18
As far as I understood past perfect tense, it is used to denote the earlier action and the two events must be related. How is that we are relating the two events announcement was made and the growth had accelerated. How are these two events related?
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Re: The Federal Reserve announcement said that growth had accelerated afte  [#permalink]

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New post 27 Jan 2020, 17:24
What I understood from this SC problem is that here we have three tenses or three actions.
1. Accelerated Growth : This action occurred prior to announcement which was told in past simple tense.So for this action I need past perfect tense.
2. Someone announced: This action was performed in past or after growth accelerated. So need simple past.
3. Policy makers remain concerned: Now this is kind of suggestion/warning by someone to remain cautious in future. So basically it is subjunctive.

C, D wrong for use of little sign.
B is wrong for no use of "that" before growth
E is wrong from past simple tense in growth accelerated.

In sum, A follows all above three explanation. A is correct.
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Re: The Federal Reserve announcement said that growth had accelerated afte  [#permalink]

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New post 28 Jan 2020, 01:29
DiyaDutta wrote:
As far as I understood past perfect tense, it is used to denote the earlier action and the two events must be related. How is that we are relating the two events announcement was made and the growth had accelerated. How are these two events related?

Hi Divya, the two announcements don't use past perfect; only the first announcement (growth had accelerated) uses past perfect.

So, the sentence is basically saying:

The Federal Reserve announcement said that growth had accelerated..

This really is a correct sentence because commenting about growth is really related to Federal Reserve's nature of job.
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Re: The Federal Reserve announcement said that growth had accelerated afte  [#permalink]

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New post 28 Jan 2020, 10:01
DiyaDutta wrote:
As far as I understood past perfect tense, it is used to denote the earlier action and the two events must be related. How is that we are relating the two events announcement was made and the growth had accelerated. How are these two events related?



Hello DiyaDutta,
Thank you for the query. :-)

The Federal Reserve announcement said that growth had accelerated after slowing in the second quarter and that the policy makers remain concerned about the prospects of inflation, even though there are few signs of higher energy prices driving up the cost of other goods so far.


This sentence presents three events as underlined above. Out of these three events, one is written in the simple present tense - remain. So, this action is happening now. Good enough.

Then we have the events announced and had accelerated. Now, the usage of the past perfect tense verb had accelerated is correct in this sentence because out of all the events mentioned in the form of a verb, this event took place before the other two events. The usage of this tense makes it clear that the growth had already started before the announcement was made. So, the sequencing between these two past events has been made clear by the usage of the past perfect tense verb for the earlier past event. The usage conveys the intended meaning clearly.

Hope this helps. :-)
Thanks.
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Re: The Federal Reserve announcement said that growth had accelerated afte  [#permalink]

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New post 08 Feb 2020, 08:47
GMATNinja wrote:
shabuzen102 wrote:
Dear Expert,

I'd like to get some clarifications with this question. Yes, it's about the past perfect tense again.

1. How can we be certain that the action of acceleration happens before the announcement? Couldn't it happen at the same time?

2. If the answer to the above question is that something has to happen before you say it happens, then what about examples of sentences we say all the time, "He knew he was right" "He said he saw the car coming in" etc. Shouldn't they be "He knew he had been right" and "He said he had seen the car coming in" etc.?

3. From a few creditable resources (Manhattan and Magoosh), we've acknowledged that we wouldn't have to use past perfect if that tense is understood from the context. If by using "said" to describe an action, we should immediately know that that action must have happened before saying. That means the past perfect tense is understood. Then wouldn't "had accelerated" be redundant?

4. If reported speech in the past requires past perfect tense for the thing described, then is it the general rule that there's not EVER any question that uses perfect tense in both, and something like "The authority said that the economy slowed down" or "The officials reported that people liked the recent data" would always be wrong?

Thank you!

Sorry for the delay!

It wouldn't really make sense for the action of acceleration to start at EXACTLY the same time as the announcement. How can you announce something that hasn't happened yet?

Now we can certainly announce an ongoing process, but in that case we would want something like, "The Federal Reserve announcement said that growth was accelerating..." - that would imply that the acceleration was still happening at the time of the announcement, but we don't have that option here.

As for your examples, "He knew he was right," actually conveys a slightly different meaning than "He knew he had been right":

  • "He knew he was right." - The action of being "right" doesn't stop before the action of "knowing". Being "right", in this case, is a continuous action.
  • "He KNEW he had been right when he answered the question on the exam, so he was surprised when he saw an "F" on the graded exam." When did the action of "knowing" happen? At some point in the past (the moment he saw that "F" on his exam). When did the action of "being right" happen? At a DISTINCT time in the past (well before the exam was graded). This construction stresses the difference in the timing of the two actions.

We don't need to make that distinction in conversation, but there's a difference between what passes in day-to-day speech and what's correct on the GMAT! And remember, that the GMAT isn't about coming up with hard and fast rules to blindly apply to future problems. We have to compare the five choices and "select the answer that produces the most effective sentence."

Here we have to choose between "had accelerated" and "accelerated". The use of the past perfect ("had accelerated") makes the chronology crystal clear: the acceleration happened in the past (after the slowing), and the announcement happened at a later point in the past. That makes perfect (no pun intended) sense!

The use of the simple past ("accelerated') is less clear and allows for an interpretation that doesn't make any sense (that the acceleration started at the same time as the announcement).

Does this mean we can carve some rules in stone when it comes to the past perfect and apply those rules to every other sentence we see? Absolutely not. But among the five choices on THIS question, (A) is the best.


Dear GMATNinja,

I know we've been talking back and forth about this, but I've just found a sentence and I can't help myself asking what you think.

"At the end of 2001, motion picture industry representatives said that there were about a million copies of Hollywood movies available online, and that they expected piracy to increase as high-speed Internet connections became more widely available"

First of all, since they "said", then shouldn't the content of what they said be in past perfect tense? Second, when they expected, shouldn't they expect something to happen in the future?
(would become rather than became). Thanks!
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Re: The Federal Reserve announcement said that growth had accelerated afte  [#permalink]

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New post 18 Feb 2020, 11:36
shabuzen102 wrote:
GMATNinja wrote:
shabuzen102 wrote:
Dear Expert,

I'd like to get some clarifications with this question. Yes, it's about the past perfect tense again.

1. How can we be certain that the action of acceleration happens before the announcement? Couldn't it happen at the same time?

2. If the answer to the above question is that something has to happen before you say it happens, then what about examples of sentences we say all the time, "He knew he was right" "He said he saw the car coming in" etc. Shouldn't they be "He knew he had been right" and "He said he had seen the car coming in" etc.?

3. From a few creditable resources (Manhattan and Magoosh), we've acknowledged that we wouldn't have to use past perfect if that tense is understood from the context. If by using "said" to describe an action, we should immediately know that that action must have happened before saying. That means the past perfect tense is understood. Then wouldn't "had accelerated" be redundant?

4. If reported speech in the past requires past perfect tense for the thing described, then is it the general rule that there's not EVER any question that uses perfect tense in both, and something like "The authority said that the economy slowed down" or "The officials reported that people liked the recent data" would always be wrong?

Thank you!

Sorry for the delay!

It wouldn't really make sense for the action of acceleration to start at EXACTLY the same time as the announcement. How can you announce something that hasn't happened yet?

Now we can certainly announce an ongoing process, but in that case we would want something like, "The Federal Reserve announcement said that growth was accelerating..." - that would imply that the acceleration was still happening at the time of the announcement, but we don't have that option here.

As for your examples, "He knew he was right," actually conveys a slightly different meaning than "He knew he had been right":

  • "He knew he was right." - The action of being "right" doesn't stop before the action of "knowing". Being "right", in this case, is a continuous action.
  • "He KNEW he had been right when he answered the question on the exam, so he was surprised when he saw an "F" on the graded exam." When did the action of "knowing" happen? At some point in the past (the moment he saw that "F" on his exam). When did the action of "being right" happen? At a DISTINCT time in the past (well before the exam was graded). This construction stresses the difference in the timing of the two actions.

We don't need to make that distinction in conversation, but there's a difference between what passes in day-to-day speech and what's correct on the GMAT! And remember, that the GMAT isn't about coming up with hard and fast rules to blindly apply to future problems. We have to compare the five choices and "select the answer that produces the most effective sentence."

Here we have to choose between "had accelerated" and "accelerated". The use of the past perfect ("had accelerated") makes the chronology crystal clear: the acceleration happened in the past (after the slowing), and the announcement happened at a later point in the past. That makes perfect (no pun intended) sense!

The use of the simple past ("accelerated') is less clear and allows for an interpretation that doesn't make any sense (that the acceleration started at the same time as the announcement).

Does this mean we can carve some rules in stone when it comes to the past perfect and apply those rules to every other sentence we see? Absolutely not. But among the five choices on THIS question, (A) is the best.


Dear GMATNinja,

I know we've been talking back and forth about this, but I've just found a sentence and I can't help myself asking what you think.

"At the end of 2001, motion picture industry representatives said that there were about a million copies of Hollywood movies available online, and that they expected piracy to increase as high-speed Internet connections became more widely available"

First of all, since they "said", then shouldn't the content of what they said be in past perfect tense? Second, when they expected, shouldn't they expect something to happen in the future?
(would become rather than became). Thanks!

No problem! I understand the confusion.

Before responding to your post, let me stress how important it is to avoid taking something you saw in a correct or incorrect answer choice on one problem and turning it into a concrete rule that can be applied to other problems (i.e. "... okay, when using the verb, 'said', we have to follow it with a past perfect verb.").

Unfortunately, the GMAT doesn't work that way. You have to think really hard about each unique question and decide which choice is the best out of the five available options. The "At the end of 2001..." example is entirely different than this one, and trying to analyze the two simultaneously is like comparing apples to orangutans.

Quote:
First of all, since they "said", then shouldn't the content of what they said be in past perfect tense?

  • "that there were about a million copies of Hollywood movies available online" - the number of copies available online is a piece of data that changes over time, not an ongoing action like "accelerating".
  • So it makes perfect sense to cite the number of copies that are available at any given moment.
  • Using the past perfect would change the meaning entirely. For example, we could use the past perfect to refer to a time even further in the past, i.e.: "At the end of 2001, motion picture industry representatives said that there had been about a million copies of Hollywood movies available online during the late 1990s..."

Quote:
Second, when they expected, shouldn't they expect something to happen in the future?

I believe this question was already addressed in this post. If not, please post any follup-up questions on the thread of that question.

I hope that helps!
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Re: The Federal Reserve announcement said that growth had accelerated afte   [#permalink] 18 Feb 2020, 11:36

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