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Re: The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which [#permalink]
info from Reed regarding diffference between Simple tense vs Simple present continous tense
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Re: The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which [#permalink]
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jabhatta2 wrote:
Question on (E) - Comma + Verb'ing CAN modify either

(i) The closest noun (in this case local times) - an example of such was given in the yellow highlight by @GMATNINJA)
or
(ii) The Entire clause.

Question - how to determine if comma+ Differing in option (e) is modifying the closest noun or the entire clause ?

I specifically eliminated (E) because comma+ differing can DO BOTH (modify a noun or the entire clause) -- thus there are 2 plausible interpretations

Hence the use of Comma + Verb'ing CAN NOT BE THE BEST CHOICE of use because Comma+Verb'ing CAN MODIFY EITHER the noun or the clause , resulting in two interpretations of (E)

Given these 2 possible interpretations, i chose to eliminate (E)

Parallelism comes into play here (in option E): parallelism between past participle (determined) and present participle (differing).

So, by virtue of parallelism, both would modify the same entity, in this case local times.
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Re: The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which [#permalink]
KarishmaB wrote:

'Local times were differing ...' means there was an ongoing activity over a period of time in the past to be different. The verb here is 'were differing.'
That doesn't make sense.



Hi KarishmaB - thank you for your response.

When you say : Local times were differing from city to city

Are you saying that --

IN THE PAST -- there were definitely occassions when local times WERE NOT DIFFERING from city to city.

Thank you s
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The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which [#permalink]
GMATNinja wrote:
Consider this example, taken from our article about why that “-ing” word probably isn’t a verb:

    "The angry politician, frustrated by the opposition’s parliamentary tactics and screaming about the other parties’ unconstitutional behavior, is both a hypocrite and a narcissist." - Both "frustrated" (an -ed modifier) and "screaming" (an -ing modifier) are adjectives that modify "politician" (a noun).

You'll certainly find examples where -ed/-ing modifiers modify an entire clause. But they can also act like adjectives and modify nouns. That makes them more flexible than, say, noun modifiers (which, who, where, etc.).

In this question, both "determined" and "differing" are adjectives that modify "local times".

I hope that helps!


Hi GMATNinja

Question on (E) - Comma + Verb'ing CAN modify either

(i) The closest noun (in this case local times) - an example of such was given in the yellow highlight by you above (@GMATNINJA)
or
(ii) The Entire clause.

Question - how to determine if comma+ Differing in option (e) is modifying the closest noun or the entire clause ?

I specifically eliminated (E) because comma+ differing can DO BOTH (modify a noun or the entire clause) -- thus there are 2 plausible interpretations

Hence the use of Comma + Verb'ing CAN NOT BE THE BEST CHOICE of use because Comma+Verb'ing CAN MODIFY EITHER the noun or the clause , resulting in two interpretations of (E)

Given these 2 possible interpretations, i chose to eliminate (E)
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Re: The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which [#permalink]
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jabhatta2 wrote:
KarishmaB wrote:

'Local times were differing ...' means there was an ongoing activity over a period of time in the past to be different. The verb here is 'were differing.'
That doesn't make sense.



Hi KarishmaB - thank you for your response.

When you say : Local times were differing from city to city

Are you saying that --

IN THE PAST -- there were definitely occassions when local times WERE NOT DIFFERING from city to city.

Thank you s


jabhatta2
I don't know whether we are discussing the same thing.
I specifically said above that 'local times were differing ...' does not make sense. How am I to explain what it means?

'Local times were different...' makes sense and all that means is that they were different at that point in time. Whether there was a time when they were not different, I couldn't tell you.
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The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which [#permalink]
KarishmaB wrote:
I specifically said above that 'local times were differing ...' does not make sense. How am I to explain what it means?


Hi KarishmaB - Could you help explain why WHY the blue above does not make sense. Perhaps with some simple exmaples ?
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Re: The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which [#permalink]
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jabhatta2 wrote:
KarishmaB wrote:
I specifically said above that 'local times were differing ...' does not make sense. How am I to explain what it means?


Hi KarishmaB - Could you help explain why WHY the blue above does not make sense. Perhaps with some simple exmaples ?


'differ' is a stative verb, not dynamic so it gives a state, not an action. Hence you cannot use it in continuous tense.
See here: https://continuingstudies.uvic.ca/elc/s ... ammar/stat
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Re: The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which [#permalink]
Hey egmat, quick question:
Verb+ed modifiers can modify preceding nouns or noun phrases. How come "determined" is not modifying "Abolition of local times" and is only modifying "local times"? Could you please explain that?
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Re: The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which [#permalink]
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This question came up in a thread about "-ed" words on GMAT SC, and I figured I'd post it here too, just in case it helps anybody:
StringArgs wrote:
Hi GMATNinja,

In the below example https://gmatclub.com/forum/the-growth-of-the-railroads-led-to-the-abolition-of-local-times-which-75679.html#p544464 I am confused as to why E is acceptable.

E] The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differing from city to city, and to the establishment of regional times.

The ed modifier should be literally connected to the noun of the main clause which in this case can be either growth or the abolition. 'of local time' is just prepositional modifier. is the growth determined by when the sun..? the abolition of local time determined by when the sun..?

Where as in option B we use 'WHICH' to remove that ambiguity and the parallelism seems fine.

B] The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which was determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and which differed from city to city, and to the establishment of regional times.

Fair point! We do often use a comma + -ed/-ing modifier to describe the preceding clause (and hence the subject of the preceding clause). But we can't rely on that as an ironclad rule: "local times" is plural, so "which WAS determined" (singular verb) doesn't work. So (A) and (B) must be eliminated right away.

And (E) makes perfect sense if we treat the "determined" part as a comma-separated modifier. You'd probably have no issue with something like this:

    "Local times, determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian, were abolished in 1850."

(E) is basically the same thing, just in a different order. And notice that the comma-separated modifier comes right in the middle of a parallel list ("The growth of the railroads led (1) to the abolition of local times and (2) to the establishment of regional times."). If we wanted "determined" to modify the entire clause, why didn't we put it at the END of the clause?

The position of the modifier and the context make it pretty clear that "determined" describes "local times," so (E) works in this case.

I hope that helps a bit!
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Re: The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which [#permalink]
It is kind of a grammar-based question with easy errors. "Which" is wrong as it is referring to the abolition of local times rather than local times. By this, you can eliminate options A, B, and C. In option D and E, "differing" should be there as local times still differs from city to city and not a past thing.

Am I thinking correctly? Could someone please assist me in evaluating the accuracy of my thought process?
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Re: The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which [#permalink]
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gauravsirohi93 wrote:
It is kind of a grammar-based question with easy errors. "Which" is wrong as it is referring to the abolition of local times rather than local times. By this, you can eliminate options A, B, and C. In option D and E, "differing" should be there as local times still differs from city to city and not a past thing.

Am I thinking correctly? Could someone please assist me in evaluating the accuracy of my thought process?

Are you thinking correctly? Probably not. Here are two flaws in your reasoning.
Quote:
"Which" is wrong as it is referring to the abolition of local times rather than local times. By this, you can eliminate options A, B, and C.

Flaw 1: The reason for eliminating (A) and (B) is different from the reason for eliminating (C).

Obviously, "which" must refer to local times. Since "which" is positioned directly after "local times", we start by assuming that "which" refers to "local times".

These are the first parts of (A), (B), and (C):
(A) ... the abolition of local times, which was determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and ...
(B) ... the abolition of local times, which was determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and ...
(C) ... the abolition of local times, which were determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and ...

One big problem is that (A) and (B) have "which was", so WHICH is singular in (A) and (B), so WHICH can only refer to "the abolition". The abolition was not determined by the sun's position; local times were. That's the reason to eliminate (A) and (B).

(C) has "which were", so WHICH is plural in (C), so WHICH correctly refers to "local times in (C). Local times were determined by the sun's position; the first part of (C) is fine.

Look at the whole of (C) now:
(C) ... the abolition of local times, which were determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and and differing

If we substitute 'local times' for 'which', we get "local times were determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differing [from city to city]".
(C) has a problem, a more subtle one. (C) will be eliminated, but not for same reason as (A) and (B) were eliminated.

Quote:
In option D and E, "differing" should be there as local times still differs from city to city and not a past thing

Flaw 2: DIFFERING is not a verb here. It does not have a tense. Read the expert explanations earlier in this chain.

(E) is fine: DETERMINED BY and DIFFERING are both modifers and hence properly parallel.
(D) is not fine: DIFFERED is a verb and it cannot be parallel to DETERMINED BY, which is a modifier.
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Re: The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which [#permalink]
TraderAK wrote:
topmbaseeker wrote:
The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which was determined by
when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differing
from city to city, and to the
establishment of regional times.
(A)which was determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and
differing
(B)which was determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and which
differed
(C)which were determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and
differing
(D)determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differed
(E)determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differing


Answer E

The sentence goes like this:
The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times and to the establishment of regional times.

The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, Modifier 1 and Modifier 2, and to the establishment of regional times.

Modifier 1 = determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian
Modifier 2 = differing from city to city

Sentence with modifier 1 only:
The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian, and to the establishment of regional times.

Sentence with modifier 2 only:
The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, differing from city to city, and to the establishment of regional times.

Complete sentence:
The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differing from city to city, and to the establishment of regional times.



How is -ing modifier 'differing' going to local times. Shouldn't it go to growth? the subject of the previous clause?
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Re: The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which [#permalink]
Doesn’t the past participle (in this case “determined”) refer back to the subject of the preceding clause? So it would refer back to the subject , which is growth of the railroads and not to the object (which is the abolition of local times) ??

egmat wrote:
Hi guys,
The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which was determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differing from city to city, and to the establishment of regional times.



• The growth of the railroads led to
    o the abolition of local times, and
    o the establishment of regional times.
• Two characteristics of local times have been mentioned in the sentence:
    o they were determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian, and
    they differed from city to city.



1. Singular verb “was” does not agree in number with plural subject “local times”. SV must agree in number error.

2. Also “was” seem to be the verb for “abolition of local times”, meaning abolition was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian. This is certainly not the intended logical meaning of the sentence. Meaning error.

3. The two characteristics of “local times” must be parallel to each other. Here, “which was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian” (a clause) is not parallel to “differing from city to city” ( a verb-ed modifier phrase). Parallelism error.



POE:

(A) which was determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differing: Incorrect. Errors discussed above.

(B) which was determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and which differed: Incorrect. Same SV number agreement and meaning errors as in A.

(C) which were determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differing: Incorrect. Same parallelism error as in A.

(D) determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differed: Incorrect. “determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian” (a verb-ed modifier) is not parallel to “differed from city to city” (a verb phrase). Notice here that “determined” is not a verb here. It is a verb-ed modifier that is modifying “local times”. If it were a verb, ther would be no comma before it and the subject and the verb would be connected properly.

(E) determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differing: Correct. “determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian” (a verb-ed modifier phrase) is parallel to “differing from city to city” (a verb-ing modifier phrase). Both the modifiers are correctly presenting the characteristics of “local times”. Refer to OG 12#42 to see how verb-ing and verb-ed modifiers can be parallel to each other.



1. SV pair must always agree in number.
2. SV pair must always make sense together.
3. In a list of parallelism, all the entities must be grammatically as well as logically parallel.

The concepts tested in this sentence have been covered in e-gmat concepts:
1. Level 1 - SV - Agree in Number (This concept features in Level 1 Preview Concepts that are available for free. Just register and learn.)
2. Level 2 - SV - Make Sense
3. Level 1 - Parallelism - Identify and Correct
4. Level 1 - Parallelism - Helpful Tips

You can also review our article on this topic by clicking on the following link:
https://gmatclub.com/forum/verb-ed-verb ... 26923.html

Hope this helps.

Thanks
Shraddha


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Re: The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which [#permalink]
roshanoronha wrote:
Doesn’t the past participle (in this case “determined”) refer back to the subject of the preceding clause? So it would refer back to the subject , which is growth of the railroads and not to the object (which is the abolition of local times) ??

egmat wrote:
Hi guys,
The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which was determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differing from city to city, and to the establishment of regional times.



• The growth of the railroads led to
    o the abolition of local times, and
    o the establishment of regional times.
• Two characteristics of local times have been mentioned in the sentence:
    o they were determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian, and
    they differed from city to city.



1. Singular verb “was” does not agree in number with plural subject “local times”. SV must agree in number error.

2. Also “was” seem to be the verb for “abolition of local times”, meaning abolition was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian. This is certainly not the intended logical meaning of the sentence. Meaning error.

3. The two characteristics of “local times” must be parallel to each other. Here, “which was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian” (a clause) is not parallel to “differing from city to city” ( a verb-ed modifier phrase). Parallelism error.



POE:

(A) which was determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differing: Incorrect. Errors discussed above.

(B) which was determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and which differed: Incorrect. Same SV number agreement and meaning errors as in A.

(C) which were determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differing: Incorrect. Same parallelism error as in A.

(D) determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differed: Incorrect. “determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian” (a verb-ed modifier) is not parallel to “differed from city to city” (a verb phrase). Notice here that “determined” is not a verb here. It is a verb-ed modifier that is modifying “local times”. If it were a verb, ther would be no comma before it and the subject and the verb would be connected properly.

(E) determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differing: Correct. “determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian” (a verb-ed modifier phrase) is parallel to “differing from city to city” (a verb-ing modifier phrase). Both the modifiers are correctly presenting the characteristics of “local times”. Refer to OG 12#42 to see how verb-ing and verb-ed modifiers can be parallel to each other.



1. SV pair must always agree in number.
2. SV pair must always make sense together.
3. In a list of parallelism, all the entities must be grammatically as well as logically parallel.

The concepts tested in this sentence have been covered in e-gmat concepts:
1. Level 1 - SV - Agree in Number (This concept features in Level 1 Preview Concepts that are available for free. Just register and learn.)
2. Level 2 - SV - Make Sense
3. Level 1 - Parallelism - Identify and Correct
4. Level 1 - Parallelism - Helpful Tips

You can also review our article on this topic by clicking on the following link:
https://gmatclub.com/forum/verb-ed-verb ... 26923.html

Hope this helps.

Thanks
Shraddha


Posted from my mobile device


Push, as I am confused as well by this SC question!

I have two points:

- GMAT experts argue that there is a parallelism error in (C) since "...which were determined..." and "...differing..." are a clause and a verb-ing modifier respectively. However, I interpreted "...differing..." to be the second part of the clause "...which were determined...", i.e. "...local times, which were determined by XYZ and (which were) differing from city to city...". I don't necessarily see a parallelism issue here...

- I had eliminated (E) since it is not clear whether "...determined..." modifies "local times" or "the abolition of local times". Verb-ed modifiers modify the preceding noun or noun phrase, thus I guess it is still correct as long as the one (local times, i.e. the preceding noun) makes sense and the other (abolition of local times, i.e. the preceding noun phrase) doesn't?
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Re: The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which [#permalink]
(E) determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differing

What I have read in Manhattan All Verbal book is that when comma + -ed or -ing is used, it is an adverbial modifier and not a noun modifier but here it seems to be acting as noun modifier for "local times". Moreover, isn't it ambiguous that "determined" and "differing" can also modify the main subject - "The growth" ?
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Re: The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which [#permalink]
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Raghav9906

Be careful about applying any absolute rules about comma usage. There are a lot of different reasons to use a comma! Typically, "comma + -ing" will create an adverbial modifier. That's not as common for "comma + -ed," since -ed modifiers are much more likely to be noun modifiers.

However, it is pretty safe to say that a noun modifier will apply to something nearby (usually, but not always, the preceding noun) and will NOT jump all the way back to modify the subject of the clause. Also, remember that if there is a clear and logical way to read the sentence, we should read it that way unless there is something pushing us to read it another way. In other words, if modifying the preceding noun makes sense, but modifying something earlier doesn't, then just DON'T apply the modifier to that earlier thing. If the modifier NEEDED to apply to that earlier noun, but that wasn't clearly indicated, then we'd have a flaw.
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The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which [#permalink]
topmbaseeker wrote:
The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which was determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differing from city to city, and to the establishment of regional times.

(A) which was determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differing

(B) which was determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and which differed

(C) which were determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differing

(D) determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differed

(E) determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differing


GMATNinja ,KarishmaB, AjiteshArun, MartyMurray
For options D and E- does the part after the comma -modifiers determined by and differed/differing not modify the subject 'The growth of the railroads' rather than local times? Do we not require 'which' to specifically have the modifiers refer to 'local times'? I did understand the explanation of the options but I am wondering if there is a conceptual gap regarding modifiers because while attempting the question I had straightaway rejected D and E because of the above-mentioned confusion.
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