Undergraduate majors.... What are these people thinking?

Question

I've wondered the same thing.

Going into college I picked Economics just because I knew it would be a very broad, solid major. I didn't have any particular interest, and if I was picking a major based on my passion it probably would have been music, philosophy, or literature or something, but when I selected a major I was thinking to myself, "Well I don't know what I want to do right now, but what major will help me get a wide variety of jobs," I wasn't thinking, "Hm, I'm spending 40K a year, and I kind of like looking at stars, maybe I'll be an astronomy major."

I guess if some people know they're going straight into law school after undergrad maybe they can get by with a major like English, but I really don't get why so many people pick majors that don't really give them any sort of skill-set or knowledge that can be applied to a broad area.

I guess a part of it is that for a lot of people, they grow up with the assumption that they will go to college. In other words if you grow up and your parents are always saying, "When you get to college..." so it's this automatic next step after high school. With that mentality you don't think of it as an actual choice, so you don't put as much thought into it. But if you grew up and your parents were like, "Sorry we can't afford to send you to college," then you would make the decision to go if you had a clear reason why you wanted to go, but for so many people it's this automatic thing that all their friends are doing and their parents expect them to do so they just go with the flow and take a passive sort of approach and decide a major based on what "interests" them more than what would be a good pragmatic choice.

pelihu · Answer

There is a tradition in the US that the best education at the college level is a liberal arts education. There are some liberal arts colleges (not that many these days) that don't have majors at all. Students just study whatever they want.

I didn't go to a liberal arts college, but I definitely believe that the best college education consists of taking a broad range of courses that allows students to explore a lot of different topics and ideas. I believe that all college students should study philosophy, poetry and history to expand their thinking, but also improve their ability to understand and analyze new ideas.

I was an English major at UCLA. I totally agree that it would have been more difficult to land a job with an English degree, but I was planning to apply to law school. One of my law professors at Michigan told me that studying English is great preparation for studying law, because in both cases, they are both fundamentally about the study of language.

I also know that that many jobs that require strategic thinking favor students with liberal arts backgrounds. For example, McKinsey has a reputation of preferring students with quirky backgrounds. During my final round interview, among the other candidates that were there on the same day were a Columbia Law student history major (in addition to me, a Michigan Law student English major), a Germanic Studies PhD student and two Psychology PhD students. There were, of course, several MBAs that I didn't find out the backgrounds from.

Here's a link to a recent BW article that talks about how undergrad students aren't being properly prepared for the working world because they lack appropriate writing skills. They cite Wharton's undergraduate business program as one that favors a more liberal arts based education:

https://www.businessweek.com/bschools/co ... 682947.htm

Finally, there was a really good reason to be an English major at UCLA, the girls were MUCH better looking and socially adept. The UCLA campus is divided into North (arts) and South (sciences). UCLA is also an extremely competitive campus for some majors (lots of pre-med students). A large portion of the student literally do nothing but study the entire time they are on campus - no exaggeration. On the flip side (north campus), UCLA has some of the best looking women (and men I suppose) around. Perhaps not as uniformly good looking as some colleges in the South, but the cream of the crop at UCLA is hard to touch. It's sad actually, to think about the large portion of students that spent their entire times studying biology, chemistry, applied math and computer science, competing for grades from day 1. I sure hope most got at least a bit of exposure to philosophy, history and language. But I agree, it's not ideal for landing a job right out of college.

rustmonster · Answer

I turned my English major into a law degree from a top 5 school. I have no regrets. The point of a liberal arts education isn't so much to memorize lines from Shakespeare as to broaden perspective and to teach you to think. When I interviewed for the NY bar, the examiner told me he thought English was the best possible major to prepare one to become a lawyer - heavy on writing and heavy on analysis of writing.

Mark4124 · Answer

I would not go that far Ryme... you don't have to major in something practical in your undergrad to go to med school, law school, whatever. If your parents have money maybe you will go to no grad school at all and teach high school english. And you should also realize that if you major in english at a top school you are probably more competitive for journalism than someone who went to a lesser school and majored in journalism. (I know many english majors who went on to be journalists and editors) What makes me scratch my head is students who want to apply for pursuits in which they do not have any strength. I have had some pre-med minded students who have no skill in chemistry, physics, math, etc... They would never make it through organic chemistry. I have had other applicants who do not have anywhere near the grads or SATs to get into the school... that is what makes no sense to me. I understand your point of view given that I would probably be a bit ahead of the game if I had majored in quant econ rather than history, but all the same Alan Greenspan was a music major. I love you Ryme, but with all respect your post is a bit disappointing.

johnnyx9 · Answer

Pelihu, some good points in there. The Communications school at my undergrad had the best looking girls, I was always jealous of the guys that were in that school.

I suppose that majors like History and Geography might have some non-obvious advantages later in a career for instance if a person wants to get into politics or work for the State Department.

aaudetat · Answer

I think Pelihu and others have made the point that I would make - liberal arts educations are about being a well-rounded individual with strong organization, writing, speaking, and research skills. I am one smart chick (in case you can't already tell by my erudite posts, and my use of words like erudite), and being in college was all about me learning to apply and further develop my smarts like a grown-up.

Aside from the sciences, I think you can learn almost any task on-the-job, as long as you have adequately developed thinking and processing skills. Think of all the jobs out there - there is no "trade school" for financial counseling, marketing, program management, etc. People in these careers developed their skills and interests over time.

The problem is that people decide that a given major must funnel them into a certain job. Being an English major is not about becoming an English teacher - one of my favorite people is the director of a very well-run Planned Parenthood clinic in Iowa, and she was an English major. Students need to understand that if they want ready-made careers, they should go to cosmetology school. 

I'm sure you've all heard two stats that I think are illimunating: people of our generation will have 7 separate careers in their lives. I KNOW that very, very few of us have 7 majors. And what's the other one? Something like fewer than 50% of fortune 500 CEOs have MBAs. Your education doesn't make you - it might just teach you some particularly applicable tricks along the way. But I for one know that I am quite capable of learning all kinds of new tricks, whatever my major was. (International Relations and Russian, in case you were wondering.)




You can pursue your passion - English, music, whatever - and still learn those critical thinking skills when you've got a liberal arts degree.

rhyme · Answer

I love you too. And I knew my post would strike a chord with some people - so dont feel bad for ripping me in half. It's cool. That was kind of the point - I wanted to see and hear from people who had done this so that I could adapt my viewpoint. The purpose of my post wasn't to get a bunch of congratulatory high fives - but rather to get that other perspective - exactly what you bring to the table. 

So take no offense, but rather know that you've given me a helpful glimpse into the other perspective.

Mark4124 · Answer

Cool beans Ryme... It is a very interesting thing to do and I would encourage anyone to avail themselves of the opportunity to interview undergrads for their alma mater... It is an incredible view of the way people think at a particular stage in their life and what the future holds for all. One of the take aways of mine, from my undergrad interviews, my 3yrs in finance, and all this MBA stuff, is a desire to go into high schools everywhere and stress the importance of math. If I had to do it all over again I would have proceeded much further than Calculus I... I would love to understand schocastic calculus and everything that underlies hardcore financial engineering. But at a far lesser level I have seen many I work with be limited by their lack of quantative skills... From failure on the series 7, CEP exams, CFP exams, etc... Many of the hinderances that I have seen have a correlation with lack of quantitive skill. In speaking with the general public... from taxes, to statement accounting, to trade calculations... I have seen a real lack of basic mathematic skill out there. Interviewing my applicants for undergrad I have seen this deficet as well. One of my future project will definately entail teaming up with high school math teachers to deliever my story and my message of the importance of mathematics... I truly believe this is an issue of fundemental importance.

rhyme · Answer

I wish I was better at math too

dukes · Answer

why can i not see the original post by rhyme when i click on this thread?

rhyme · Answer

I deleted it because it offended some people.

dukes · Answer

ha...did you insult us liberal arts majors?

rhyme · Answer

Yea I did, cause you are all a bunch of pot-smoking hippy pansies who like to dance around and listen to music and talk about your feelings.

Just kidding.

Mark4124 · Answer

Nah... only aaudetat is!

aaudetat · Answer

Not true. I am the only child of the 80s on whom Nancy Reagan actually had an effect. Yep, I am the poster child for the Just Say No campaign. 

I don't know why people would be offended - I hear lots of commentary on the less-than-obviously practical nature of today's basic liberal arts education. You might even be anxious for all those 18-year old kids who want to be English/Art/Music majors. Perhaps they could study lit by getting a library card and avoiding throwing down $100k. On the other hand, it's much more difficult to become proficient in science or engineering without formal education -- after all, you need a lab/fancy computer/professor with pocket protector to learn those subjects. Besides, with all the debt those poor kids are about to take on, are they really going to get to pursue their artsy-fartsy dreams? A much better choice might be to study something that will get them a "real" job after graduation.

Obviously, I am a screaming liberal and don't agree. But it's a worthwhile argument.

Mark4124 · Answer

With almost 80k in undergraduate debt I can definately see the argument for majoring in something that will get you a high paying job after graduation. I was going to go into education, but after working in finance with a decent salary I can not imagine how I thought this would ever be possible. For one whose partents are unable to pay for their college education practical concerns will definately catch up with you. Relative to my mathematics concern... you certainly don't have to major in a technical subject to gain strong quantitative ability. You can major in english and take enough math to pursue other fields later in life. I think there are many paths to success, I know engineers who have done nothing since college and liberal arts majors who have been very successful...

Hjort · Answer

This might be interesting to some readers: https://www.gmatclub.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=36328

aaudetat · Answer

Good add-on Hjort. 

Rhyme, any comments?

johnnyx9 · Answer

People who are CEO's of Fortune 500 companies right now were in college, what, like between 20 and 40 or so years ago? Back then (as in, when these people were leaving college), an undergraduate degree was a lot more significant because not as many people had degrees, and there weren't ten million colleges issuing degrees. So a degree was A DEGREE, it didn't matter as much what the specific major was, because there wasn't as much competition. So I'm not that surprised that there are so many non-business type degrees running these companies.

I think in this day and age it's more important to obtain a degree with specific skills or knowledge that will help in landing a good job upon graduation. Of course some people want to be History professors, so they should be history majors. But if you don't know what you want to do, instead of picking Psychology because it's an interesting major and you don't know what else to do, it might make more sense to pick something like Communications or Business or something kind of broad.

I'm totally basing this on anecdotal experiences with friends who went to school and later regretted picking up degrees in areas that they don't want to work in. I can think of five friends who were English/Literature majors, four of them had trouble landing jobs after school. But, all five of them were super-intelligent people and they're all doing great now. (I mean seriously, someone who can understand James Joyce, or who is brave enough to take on a major that requires writing so many papers is a hundred times more impressive to me than someone with great quant skills).

lepium · Answer

Very interesting post indeed! (BTW, who cares if I get into B-school or not? Just going through the process has helped me broaden my views substantially).

I'm going to add to this discussion based on my experience with the educational system in Argentina. In case you don't care (and I understand if most of you don't), just skip this post. 

a) The system does not allow for Major / Minor, double Major, no Major, etc. You study for a specific degree from day 1 (Eg: Engineer, lawyer, psychologist, Medicine doctor, philosopher, Architect, etc.). You can transfer to another degree later on, but it will take you longer, unless you transfer early on in between related degrees. For eg: if you want to transfer from Accounting to Business Administration, you can do so around year 3. Between Electrical an Industrial Engineering during year 2. But to transfer between Medicine and Law you would probably need to go back to year 1.

b) Electives are usually restricted to Senior year (usually 5th or 6th year).

c) Recruiters limit degree diversity much more than in the US (from what I've read here or elsewhere). While some degrees overlap, it is almost unheard of, for eg, an English major landing a job in finance. Finance would be typically restricted to: Economists, Business Admin Bs and to a lesser degree Accountants and maybe some Industrial Engineers. 

d) Social sciences (eg: History, Literature, Sociology) degree holders are mostly limited to: teaching, writing (journalism, etc.), etc. HR departments may recruit some Sociologists / Psychologists and Psychologist can always work at hospitals or privately but it's almost unheard of, for example, a History degree holder becoming a CEO of any company but his own.

e) State run universities are free and well respected (paid for by taxpayers), so some people "experiment" with different choices for a few years. 

f) Law is a 6-year degree, not grad.

g) English (or Spanish) degree holders usually work as teachers / translators or something like that. 

To conclude, most students need to figure out the type of job they would like to land before enrolling into university. Or at least well in advance from graduation. 

Most social sciences graduates are usually pursuing their passions, but they do so knowing that their salary prospects are most probably greatly diminished for years to come. 

"What was the point of my post? Is it clear enough? -Probably not, but I've written so much that I'm not going to delete it-".

Cheers. L.

Undergraduate majors.... What are these people thinking?

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