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riverripper
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MBA Applications up significantly 15 Aug 2007, 18:44
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There is an interesting article over on BW. Judging by what is said its only going to be harder this year for everyone, especially our Indian friends...once again statements about how many of you seem to be applying these days. I think the internet and sites like this are part of the reason applications are improving like they talk about; you can find so much helpful info on how to put together a solid app now you really have no excuse for submitting junk with so much free info out there on the process.

https://www.businessweek.com/bschools/co ... index+page
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MBA Applications up significantly 15 Aug 2007, 19:06
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Very interesting article. Though the number of people taking the GMAT has increased by 6.2%, the number of applicants has increased by more than 10%. I think basically there are more applicants overall but I think a large portion of it is driven by the fact that applicants are looking at 6-7 schools now instead of the 4-5 that they used to before.
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dosa_don, you did well in CR, didn't you :wink:
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MBA Applications up significantly 15 Aug 2007, 20:12
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I guess the numbers for this year remain to be seen, but there's no longer any doubt that applications were up the last two years. It wouldn't be surprising if applications were up again this year. It's also a pretty good bet that a lot of people that graduated over the last 3-4 years wouldn't be admitted to their same schools if they had to apply this year.
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MBA Applications up significantly 15 Aug 2007, 20:26
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ack! That's what I was afraid of... the bar keeps on getting raised higher and higher every year... I wish I applied 1-2 years ago ;)
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MBA Applications up significantly 15 Aug 2007, 21:02
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@ neo- I wish :(

@kryzak- I had the same feeling a few days back-wish I had applied the last few years :) Seemed to have been easier

At the same time-I think whats happening is that a lot more schools are getting recognized through diverse rankings and better knowledge among the applicants. Take UChicago-I dont think many Indians knew about it a few years back- but now it is the must app school for Indians after Wharton. So UChic automatically gets added on to the list of schools that people want to go to. I think I myself am a good example-I think I am applying to a fair number of schools-almost all of them stretch ones for me. If everyone has that mentality the number is going to be really high.
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and the feedback loop where everyone needs to apply to more schools to make up for the "crap shoot" syndrome... and thus every school gets more apps. This does mean some school's yield will go down though, so maybe they need to accept more? Wow... this is getting to be somewhat complicated! ;)

All we can really do is to make our apps even better and outshine all the "improved" apps out there!
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At the same time-I think whats happening is that a lot more schools are getting recognized through diverse rankings and better knowledge among the applicants. Take UChicago-I dont think many Indians knew about it a few years back- but now it is the must app school for Indians after Wharton. So UChic automatically gets added on to the list of schools that people want to go to. I think I myself am a good example-I think I am applying to a fair number of schools-almost all of them stretch ones for me. If everyone has that mentality the number is going to be really high.
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Do you guys think that Indians are even more swayed by rankings than most people. I know those working in the US probably probably can easily visit schools and do more evaluation on fit...but do international applicants from asia tend to just aim for top schools because they are top schools? I think many people in MBA fields (MC and IB) tend to apply to the very top schools because thats where all their bosses went.
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hmmm... just makes it that much tougher for all of us... :-(
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I think thats very well the case and I think this is even so if you have a high GMAT score. Lot of familial and peer pressure when applying to b-schools with a high GMAT score-expectations are that a higher score guarantees as top school.

A good example is my brother in law. IIT graduate, 780 GMAT and my whole family was in shock when he was rejected by S and H. They could not fathom that such a high GMAT score could not get in to those schools.

I think ranking is a pretty dominant factor for most Indians- not only for b-schools but other things as well.

Though I have another argument-if the number of schools that applicants are applying to has increased-the app quality could decrease. This explain why the yields might not really go really low-an applicant might have gotten 2 admits when he applied for 4 schools vs 2 admits when he is applying for 6. So am not sure if yields would go low or not-someone with better CR ability ;) could explain.

Also-
On a slightly different topic-I think the total number of Indians coming to the US for graduate studies has not increased-just that a % of Indians who would have applied for an MS program have started applying to MBA programs.
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MBA Applications up significantly 16 Aug 2007, 06:54
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I remember reading a really old MBA admissions book, (i think it was published in late 80's/early 90's), where they were listing the average GMAT scores for the top 10 schools. My jaws dropped when i saw it was only 650-680 as the average. The competition and number of applicants has definitly increased. Lets all just hope that the current slide in the market will not put us in a position like the classes of 2001-2003
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MBA Applications up significantly 16 Aug 2007, 07:29
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I'm hoping the market slide will help too! ;)

But using good CR skills, if:

- Application numbers are increasing (raw number)
- GMAT Takers are increasing (raw number)
- Application QUALITY is also increasing (according to Stacy Blackman)

Then that means not only are more people applying, but the quality of the apps are also better. It can mean two things:

1. The same amount of people are now applying to more schools because they fear that with more people applying, their chances of getting into any specific school is more like a crap shoot now. This will lead to a reduction in yield for each school.

2. More people are applying, and those who are applying are applying to similar numbers of schools as before. This is bad for us since it'll make every school more competitive due to the increased quality of apps and limited number of spaces
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MBA Applications up significantly 16 Aug 2007, 07:36
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rhyme, you are correct in your observation/research on international students from Asia. China (and any Chinese influenced Asian countries) is the same. EVERYTHING hinges on ONE test. One test to get into high school (yes, high school), one to get into college, one to get into grad school, the list goes on. Each level of the schooling system is there PRIMARILY to prepare you for the next test. There used to even be ONE test to get into good middle schools! Can you imagine elementary school kids in the US studying their butts off for a 1-2 day test just to get into middle school???

I was lucky to have been in a more well rounded middle school in Taiwan, but my cousins and friends weren't so lucky. Pretty much all their "extracurricular" classes like music, sports, woodshop all got replaced by more language, math, history, geography, and other "tested" subjects, beginning from 7th grade (middle school is 7-9th grade). Then after a 7a-6pm school day, they all go to "cram schools" where they learn more test taking techniques to hone their test taking skills. And if you don't get into the TOP schools, you are a disgrace to your family.

Talk about pressure eh? My friends were quite jealous of me because I knew I was going back to the States for high school and thus applying to colleges the "easy" way and never had to study that hard for cram school or any of those crazy tests.

It's basically a culture thing, and because of the increased applications from China and India, it's easy to see why GMAT scores have crept up that much and competition is getting tougher (especially now that both Chinese and Indians are getting better at the essay parts).
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I was reading a piece on the H1B and other professional visas situation and how a lot of Politician are now starting to go against it for two reasons. The largest applicants are Indian outsourcing companies and are hurting american workers but also suprisingly because of the affects it is having on advanced degree programs. It talked about how Indian and Chinese applicants in particular are applying heavily to advanced degree programs, especially engineering programs, as a way of obtaining a visa. While they make up a small fraction of the undergrads they make up a very large percentage of students in grad schools. If this is true then it may explain why at most schools the increase of applicants from abroad is outpacing the increase the rest of applications.

Personally I think that politician are once again using the old trick of using the data to your advantage. I think they are ignoring the fact that some cultures place a greater emphasis on education. That is probably why certain groups apply for more advanced degrees. By limiting who is allowed to come here to study we will just weaken our educational system but sadly it might become a popular position to support.

I am curious how the recent tumble of the markets and some notable hedge fund failings will affect applicants who want to go into investment banking this fall. It sure doesn't look as attractive lately as it did a year ago.
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MBA Applications up significantly 16 Aug 2007, 11:57
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The politicians are right because some companies have hired from outside the US when they could have hired from within the US easily. I think some big Indian corporates are guilty of this. They do this because an Indian going to work in the US will easily work for a lot less than someone already in the US. They used this to save money the wrong way. Now some of them are being investigated. https://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnf ... 218119.htm

There's plenty of scope for debate/ criticism here because the US earns billions of dollars through international students coming to the US each year. Thats going to be a potential loss to the US. Also many international students lose due to this - lots been said on that already.

Its probably best if the US government were to work on foolproofing the system against H1B misuse. If there's a skillled worker shortage then look to US Universities/ increasing H1B visa quotas. H1B reforms will hurt but its best they do it fast.
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I still think the best way to prevent "brain drain" of more than 50% of adv degrees going to non-US people is to offer everyone with an adv degree in tech and working in a US company permanent resident status, and make them US Citizens. I mean, this way we are letting the smartest and the best of other countries immigrate here, helping our labor force and intellect base, and preventing the smart Chinese/Indians from taking their knowledge (and sometimes advanced research) out of the US when the stupid H1B visa expires or runs out.

Just my 2 cents.

but the market crashing might be good for us applying this year... who knows...
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Sounds like a reasonable suggestion. The only problem is, that the govt will then have to give permanent residency to the graduates of Golden Gate University and University of Phoenix too. This will also mushroom a lot of new Universities and new programs that will have almost no entry requirements. And we will start seeing advertisements in Indian / Chinese / Mexican papers about "Get green card in US for only $10,000 and 2 years of wasted time".

A fix for the above mentioned problem can be something similar to the UK's HSMP program which gives you an automatic work visa if you are an MBA from a top X university of the world. But I don't see that happening in the US. Can the govt really offer a visa to the computer science graduates of MIT and Carnegie Mellon while denying graduates of University of Nowhereland, without causing a major uproar?
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MBA Applications up significantly 16 Aug 2007, 17:41
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well, the idea has to be refined a bit ;)

But there should be a way just like we're doing of "applying" for a green card using your experience, education, background, and stuff like that. Merit based green cards, and generally a CS person from MIT will be more likely to get recognized as "more valuable" than one from a community college. Generally. I bet you it'll end up being a "holistic" approach that determines who gets the green card, LOL! :P
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mNeo
A fix for the above mentioned problem can be something similar to the UK's HSMP program which gives you an automatic work visa if you are an MBA from a top X university of the world. But I don't see that happening in the US. Can the govt really offer a visa to the computer science graduates of MIT and Carnegie Mellon while denying graduates of University of Nowhereland, without causing a major uproar?
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Sadly thats probably true. Though using our schools to steal all the most talented people in the world is actually a very good idea. The voting public would still view it that these people are taking americans' spots. It is true that very few americans would want to pick fruit or do other very hard labor. However, there are thousands of software engineers that would love to have more competition for their skills from companies, their pay would end up being a lot higher.

If the markets keep tanking like this it very well could make some people think twice. I bet hedge funds wont be as popular in a few years if they keep failing and regulators tighten up on them.

Another factor in the coming years could be the ability for people to take out large enough loans for school. With all the credit issues companies are going to tighten up on who they give money to no matter your potential future income.
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MBA Applications up significantly 16 Aug 2007, 23:10
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riverripper
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At the same time-I think whats happening is that a lot more schools are getting recognized through diverse rankings and better knowledge among the applicants. Take UChicago-I dont think many Indians knew about it a few years back- but now it is the must app school for Indians after Wharton. So UChic automatically gets added on to the list of schools that people want to go to. I think I myself am a good example-I think I am applying to a fair number of schools-almost all of them stretch ones for me. If everyone has that mentality the number is going to be really high.

Do you guys think that Indians are even more swayed by rankings than most people. I know those working in the US probably probably can easily visit schools and do more evaluation on fit...but do international applicants from asia tend to just aim for top schools because they are top schools? I think many people in MBA fields (MC and IB) tend to apply to the very top schools because thats where all their bosses went.
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I am not swayed..I visit gmatclub :wink:
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