Kellogg ($$$) vs Columbia ($$)

Question

Torn between these two. Received a 2Y MBA admit from Kellogg with 120k scholarship, and an Aug entry 2Y MBA admit from CBS with 80k scholarship. Indian male, with top-5 strategy consulting and small-shop PE experience, both in India. Post-MBA career goal (location: US) is PE (dream job, either right after MBA or sometime later) > consulting > tech at this point. Both Chicago and NYC are another continent; location not much of a concern here. Kellogg seems great for MBB and tech, Columbia seems to be good for both those and great at finance; CBS seems to have an edge here by opening up another strong avenue (finance). Columbia seems to be the better regarded school given it's ivy-league pedigree. I value a campus-community-camaraderie experience; Kellogg seems to have an edge here. Unfortunately, cannot attend either Kellogg's or CBS' admitted weekend.

Wajeeh · Answer

Firstly congratulations my friend. Secondly i think CBS is better for you and your future

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Alt_Investments-BR · Answer

Congrats! Keep in mind that some PE shops will only actively recruit at HSW + CBS/Booth. I’ve also seen a handful of career switchers using school year internships in Manhattan to break into the buy side. That might be helpful if you don’t get the summer internship you were initially aiming for.

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Nikhil · Answer

gmatlover12 Did you check this? https://gmatclub.com/forum/kellogg-vs-c ... 85441.html

gmatlover12 · Answer

Thanks  workout  have checked that thread but it is specific to a guy with clear post-MBA target of IB in NYC. Wondering what the assessment would be in a more general case, where finance is an option and not the top option.

Nikhil · Answer

Tagging a few for their inputs

ENGRTOMBA2018 
 kardonirish24 
 billionaire 
 bb 
 jessepinkman

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dubcity12 · Answer

With cost of living in NYC, that 40K difference in scholarship is probably closer to 60k.

You can get to PE from Kellogg and you will likely have a fairly easy time doing consulting recruiting.

Personally, I would say Kellogg because you can get to the exact same places, will have more fun doing it, and have less debt or more money in your pocket at the end of it.

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bb · Answer

Congrattulations on your Admits and Scholarships  gmatlover12 ! Congrats on 770 too! (You mentioned you canceled it last time - did you end up using that 770 or did you retake by the way?)

PE is very very competitive. Being an international, your chances are going to be slimmer than for a domestic applicant due to interview skills, culture, and brand-names on the resume.

You will have a better chance of being exposed to it at CBS. It is a chance though, not a guarantee - you will get a few more opportunities of taking a shot but you will still be competing with HBS, Tuck, MIT, and Wharton folks for those slots. If PE is the dream/ultimate goal, then CBS is somewhat better. Another advantage of CBS is its global brand recognition and alum network outside of the US.

It is hard to figure out how much better it is for $40-50K difference in scholarship and cost of living. Kellogg has been consistently performing very well in the rankings and in terms of school exposure and outreach. Kellogg brand has done very well.

I feel that unless PE or New York City is an ultimate dream that you can't leave, you will be much safer at Kellogg (good ranking, lower cost in case of H1B lottery setback, and a great choice of opportunities).

Congrats!!!

bb · Answer

A bit more to add - Kellogg puts about 10% of its grads (54 out of 488 into Finance). Finance is definitely not a major focus for Kellogg incoming or outgoing students. This does not mean doom and gloom but it usually means it is not a focus for employers either and student clubs tend to be less oriented towards all the nitty gritty of finance since it covers corp finance, PE, IB, etc.

25% of CBS grads go into Finance: 207 out of 778.

In case you are thinking it is just because CBS is in NYC, Booth, for example places 175 out of 586 (30%) of its grads into Finance.

P.S. Keep in mind these numbers are a sub-set of a larger number since not all alums report back so the proportions may stay or may not. E.g. CBS had 572 out of 778 report back as seeking employment (meaning some returned to employers or started businesses or did not bother to work). At Kellogg that number is 418 and at Booth (just for the heck of it) is 515. Clearly CBS has a much larger % of people not seeking employment... again likely due to corp contracts and company sponsorships.

gmatlover12 · Answer

Thanks a lot  bb  and  dubcity12  for your inputs.
 bb  , I ended up re-instating and using the 770. I'm glad I did; the application process was extremely rigorous, just the way others pointed out on the other thread about canceling the 770. Perhaps a 780 would have pushed me into Wharton (got rejected after interview), but then perhaps not.

With these and other inputs, I am leaning towards Kellogg. It is interesting that you mention Tuck; I have an admit from there too, albeit without scholarship; do you feel Tuck is in the same league as an HBS or Wharton when it comes to placing into PE?

danpo · Answer

Hi, fellow admit here. Today's Kellogg's deadline for the deposit, so I might be too late, but let me chime in anyways.

I just attended DAK, Kellogg's admit weekend, and talked to dozens of people outside of Kellogg too. The general consensus seems to be that for PE H/S >>> W > B/K and maybe Tuck >> everything else. If you compare Kellogg's and Columbia's employment reports, that impression holds. Not many people from CBS go to PE despite the alleged "NYC advantage", so choosing the school over Kellogg purely because of PE recruiting is misguided I think. The picture may change a bit in favor of CBS if you want to get into investment management.

My personal impression is that while Kellogg isn't known as a finance school, (a) this is largely due to self-selection and not because of a lack of recruiting opportunities; (b) it is actually pretty strong in finance academically (although there are less "niche" electives than at Booth/Wharton and I assume CBS); and (c) you will still have access to buy-side recruiting (I literally just met people at Kellogg who successfully recruited to PE, asset management and hedge funds); in these fields, you and your pre-MBA experience are the deciding factors anyway. That being said, neither school will get you into Blackstone or KKR (to be fair, not even H/S will unless you have the right background).

I didn't apply to Columbia, so I don't know it as well, but it's a great school and there are perfectly fine reasons to attend it. However, PE recruiting isn't one of them.

One last word of advice: Fellow international students told me that PE/hedge fund recruiting is largely off the table for international students, because those firms are typically small and don't sponsor visas. Special situations may apply, but that's something to keep in mind.

Shoot me a PM if you want to talk about my impression of Kellogg's culture. I loved it!

bb · Answer

Ah. Sorry I missed your reply. I don't think I would pass up a scholarship from Kellogg or Columbia for Tuck but that's likely not anything you were entertaining anyway.
Good luck with your decision!!!

buysideMBA · Answer

Hey guys - CBS student here, former PE associate and currently recruiting for PE again.

Felt I needed to chime in here because I found this comment very inaccurate, even though I am sure it wasn't danpo's intention. Columbia has a significantly stronger placement and network in the PE industry, and that is what ultimately led me to apply to CBS vs Kellogg or MIT, for example. I say this based on a number of factors, but particularly the following:

- Columbia places 6.5% of its class in PE/VC, compared to 3.8% at Kellogg. PE is always a niche sector so both are small numbers, but there is a 70% difference. This difference is persistent over time and leads to a much stronger network at Columbia.

- For recruiting, having a large share of students going into the industry matters because firms will generally mobilize resources and schedule information sessions only for schools where there is a large enough pool of potential qualified candidates. At the fund where I used to work Kellogg wasn't seen as a target school at all, whereas Columbia was, even though HS was admittedly preferred. This might seem useless, but in Private Equity information sessions are generally the first step towards getting to know the teams and advancing in the recruiting process.

- Columbia places a few students at the top global PE shops every year. In 2018, there were students going to KKR, Blackstone, 3i, Temasek, Partners Group and Brookfield, for example. If you seek the advice of an unbiased third-party (i.e. HSW students, for example) they will all agree that those are target firms for anyone interested in PE. By looking at Kellogg's employment report, it seems that the school didn't place students at any of those firms.

I guess the OP has probably made a decision at this point, and if he chose Kellogg, fit and cost are definitely very fair reasons for doing so. I just wish he or other potential students don't make such decisions based on misleading information. Having worked in that industry for a while, I feel pretty confident in saying that CBS is a target school for most firms and Kellogg is not. This is not to say that you won't be able to get there coming from Kellogg, which is a great school, but it will be a significantly tougher process.

Happy to share additional information on my background/recruiting process with the OP or anyone admitted to Columbia and considering whether to enroll. Just shoot me a private message and I'll try to help as much as possible.

danpo · Answer

Hi buysideMBA, first of all, by no means did I want to dis CBS. It's a great school and I'm sure your finance placements are good. What I wanted to stress is (a) that Kellogg places much better in finance than it is generally given credit for and (b) experiences from students and alumni I have talked to (including students at schools better known for PE/VC).

I don't want to start an argument on placement, but I do want to put your numbers into perspective. First, OP mentioned PE and that's what my post was concerned with. For PE, the placement is 3.6% at Kellogg vs. 5.0% at Columbia. However, mind you that at Columbia 34.4% of students went into finance vs. 13.7% at Kellogg. In other words, over a quarter of Kellogg's finance placement was actually in PE. (And to refute any possible arguments about the type of roles in PE, I'll leave it up to the reader to compare median comp.) Anyway, my point is simply that finance placements at Kellogg are a function of self-selection rather than recruiting opportunities; and I say that as someone who was drawn to Kellogg's culture but a little skeptical myself about buyside recruiting before digging deeper. Regardless, it is well-known that PE recruitment is primarily dependent on one's own background and performance. (Plus largely off the table for an international student anyway.) If you aim for KKR or Blackstone, then Kellogg probably isn't the right place. But neither is Columbia. If OP wants to go to Columbia over Kellogg, by all means there's a ton of great reasons to do so. But PE recruiting isn't really one of them.

The deposit was already due at Kellogg (and I guess at Columbia as well), so all of this probably doesn't matter anymore for decision-making purposes. Best advice to OP and future readers is to go to admit weekends, reach out to alumni and people in your target industries. Funny enough, for me it was students at other "finance" schools who convinced me. Between Kellogg and Columbia, honestly I'd go whichever place you like better.

buysideMBA · Answer

If I understand correctly, your argument continues to be that it is all a numbers game and that Kellogg will give OP the same opportunities. My argument is that if that is the case, the best students at Kellogg should be going to the top funds, and they are not, while in Columbia they are. You are welcome to check past employment reports at both schools and see that CBS continually places students in those funds. It is like saying that a random school offers the same opportunities in consulting as Kellogg, but has a smaller share of students going into management consulting and none into MBB. It just doesn't seem to add up.

Would it be better if OP went to HBS? Most likely, but I don't think that is an option, and given the two that he has we will not have access to the same opportunities from Kellogg as he would have from Columbia.

Regarding international students in those firms, I can share a list of CBS students from Germany, Spain, India and Brazil with either recent offers or past internships in megafunds, some of whom with no experience in PE before school. I hope this may give OP hope that buyside finance is a feasible career goal for an international student and I would be happy to give him some tips on how to do that from CBS.