where intelligence ends and perseverance begins ..

Question

Before starting to prepare for the GMAT, naively, I thought that this was in a greater part a "cleverness" test. More specifically, I thought that the line was around 690-700, but it is quite obvious that it's not the case. Therefore, the question is: where do you think this line takes place? My current answer is around 630, especially for a non native. Maybe, 650-660 for a native.. After that, it's all about perseverance and a matter of cracking things nothing else...

This brings me to another question: since the GPA is a much(a lot a lot a lot) more reliable indicator of your perseverance, why is the gmat considered so relevant yet, especially considering the huge increase in the average scores? ( 30-35 years ago European guys entered in HBS with 550 on average and not talking about left tail)

bb · Answer

Honestly, I don’t know that GMAT is really a test of intelligence. It definitely helps to do anything if one is more intelligent. You can learn how to play a game faster or perhaps figure out a pattern faster or maybe even dig a ditch faster if you’re more intelligent. However, you won’t dig any harder or any better if you’re intelligent and at some point sure intelligence may even harm your digging because you’ll be spending too much time thinking about digging rather than digging.

What I mean to say, is that intelligence is not directly related to the GMAT and as a gym at score is not necessarily an indication of intelligence. GMAT is a test of high school math, basic English grammar, basic logic, and reading comprehension. All these skills and disciplines can be learned. They’re all rule based and they all could be perfected with time and perseverance. Someone who is a recent graduate from college, probably isn’t a much better shape than someone in their 30s trying to revisit high school math and English grammar. Someone more intelligent, could go through the material faster and could figure out how to study better rather than harder. There are benefits to intelligence.

There are also disadvantages to intelligence. I have repeatedly seen Mensa and CFA perform terribly on the quantitative part. In part, intelligent people May find certain tasks easy and maybe use to cutting corners and working smarter rather than harder. It works in a lot of cases but it doesn’t work very well on the GMAT and cutting corners catches up with you. Thus it almost hurts to be true intelligent in this case.

I would say the best candidate to succeed in the GMAT would be someone who can retain information well, follow rules without questioning them, and willing to work hard. Frankly this does not sound like a business leader of any major company I know of.... and that is where the usefulness of GMAT ends. It is hard to measure success in business with the high school math test. GPA is indeed a much stronger indicator of one’s performance but for some of us, we graduated from college years ago and that doesn’t necessarily reflect the people we are today. That is why GMAT comes in as an augmented evaluation of our performance. This allows someone who was just average in college to excel and get a really strong foot hold. This also allows to reconcile GPAs from various undergraduate colleges and countries. You can’t compare Harvard with a local community college and similarly it’s very hard to compare US schools with Chinese or Indian or European programs. They all have different greeting skills and sometimes I see is the best grade you can get in the class or maybe everyone gets 99 end it is only the guy who gets 99.9 who is really the best performer.

There is a rule that standardized test play. It’s not a perfect measure but neither is the business school the perfect tool to teach leadership (at least per Musk). There are many inefficiencies

Posted from my mobile device

Nik11 · Answer

Thanks for your answer!! I appreciate
Yes I see all these issues and benefits, but that's exactly why I think that GMAT should be weighted much less than what it is... I also see that in the US is getting more and more the classic extremization of things, whereas in Europe we are (at least till now) far from this, and I really hope it will remain so here.
I think that the more the average score increase above the 690-700 level the higher is the likelihood to lose excellent people.
Especially considering that they give huge weight to things that everyone can learn(accordingly to Schwarzman) like leadership and not to things that you have or you have not, like entrepreneurship.

bb · Answer

To defend the poor old little GMAT,

it plays in the rankings and it shows one’s ability to digest basic material. You could argue that if Juan can’t Master high school math and some grammar, how Kinley master more advanced skills that will be taught in the business school? You could count it as a learning test potentially.... Business school and MBA have become a lot more competitive in the last 30 years and does the result, scores have been under the pressure of inflation has more and more people look to score higher seeking either scholarship money or a way to cover up some of their weaknesses. It is a part of the application package. It is a bit of a right of passage... but as all tools it’s not always perfect. Some people don’t do well on tests. Admissions teams know this fact and they do admit a number of outstanding people call who excel in all the other elements except perhaps the GMAT. However, you can argue the same way about every single element of the application. You could say that some people don’t interview well and just fall apart under pressure. Not a great trait to have as a leader but people do. Some folks may have not a great GPA because they were disinterested in their undergraduate degree and others may have a rambling writing style and more of mathematical minds than a literary and that’s not able to write great application essays. You could say that all of these measurements are imperfect... How do we decide who gets in then? I think schools have recognized some of this and are accepting GRE and other tests in leu of the GMAT. Some schools have gone GMAT optional and provide waivers. Some are even accepting MCAT and LSAT 😬 Here’s the thing, the harder it is to get something, the more exclusive it is, and therefore the more meaningful it becomes. The more meaningful is the accomplishment, the stronger are the alumni networks. Posted from my mobile device

Nik11 · Answer

Got your point, and I agree, but are they really acting in this way? I mean, are they really considering the weaknesses of this test? For example, if you didn't enjoyed your undergraduate studies and this affected your gpa, you can easily explain it and eventually why it happened, this could even enhance your profile, whereas if you have a strong gpa you have worked hard for years. On the other hand, a "poor" gmat could have been driven by many things not correlated with your skills. For instance, the time one has to prepare for it can make a huge difference... And frankly you can't have serious "excuse" in your SoP to explain it, it would be detrimental for your profile..
Hence, the likelihood that at the end of the day they will give huge importance to your GMAT score is high and so we are where I've started.
Anyway, my overall point is not that they shouldn't give importance to this test, but that over the years many factors have contributed to make it much less reliable requiring a TRUE holistic approach. However, as far as I can see, there are very few top level schools that really act in this way (especially in the US). And I believe that this is strongly linked to Elon point of view about, for example, MBAs and also to why these programs are much less (and even much less over the next few decades) widespread.

AjiteshArun · Answer

Hi  Nik11 ,

Asian countries have even more "extreme" competition, and here's the thing that I think happens, at least in India:  the top schools here may just not care  about losing excellent people.

There was a time when the top 5 Indian B-schools rejected ~99.5% of all applicants. That is, all of them put together admitted only 0.5% of all applicants, though the situation is somewhat better now (I think the acceptance rate nowadays at a top school is ~0.25%). It may not be quite that bad in, say, the US, but every time we see such a mismatch between supply and demand, supply can get away with a lot of things. For example, why would a top school worry about losing excellent people with slightly lower test scores when it can easily find excellent people with high test scores?

Nik11 · Answer

Hello AjiteshArun, to answer to your last question
yes, I think. Just because the true "auric" of a leading business school is the record of extremely successful people passed there. Take just wharton, hbs and stanford. Musk, Picai, Trump, Dalio and so on... actually they are a true representation of the "past". Will the gmat be a reliable indicator of these minds for the future (and hence for the current test takers and these of the last decade) ? It's true that you can get many great people, but professionally talking, not geniuses. You will never spot geniuses with GMAT, rather it will overshodow them. Whereas in the past it was much more difficult to happen due to the "low" average. and again, that's why Musk think that MBAs will lose a lot of relevance, because they will produce more and more professionals and less and less game changer.

	Target Test Prep - Save up to $599 $400 Discount + $99 Bonus GMAT Club Tests
	e-GMAT: 60% Off on GMAT Focus Get to 735+ from any starting point
	Magoosh increases your score, guaranteed - 15% off ALL Magoosh GMAT plans with code GMATCLUB15 + Free GMAT Club Tests.
	Manhattan Prep: $99 Bonus Score Higher on Your GMAT Exam. Guaranteed.
	Experts' Global - ~~$1720~~ $960 End-to-End GMAT Prep + App Support: 150+ Videos, 2000+ Questions, 15 FLTs +
	GMATWhiz - $299 ~~$499~~ Experience the course through a free trial.
	GMAT Club Tests - Free Included with every course purchase of $149+ View all deals

where intelligence ends and perseverance begins ..

Prep Toolkit

Top 5 GMAT Debrief Videos

615 to 715 in 15 Days (Ria's Strategies)

More than Quant/Verbal Abilities: Speed vs. Accuracy

745 with Only Self-Prep and GMAT Club

From 555 to 765: 210-point Improvement

Perfect 805 Score Debrief by Julia

My Rewards