Applying: Need Some Help (undergraduate)

Question

Hey guys,

I have a relatively unique situation. I'll try to explain with as little detail as possible to not make this overly long.

First, I am only interested in (in order of interest level):

1. Harvard's MBA or MPP (HBS or KSG - dual possibly)
2. MIT's MBA or MSRED (dual possibly)
3. Stanford's MBA
4. Yale's MBA

I intend to apply to all of the listed programs (6 programs including 2 duals).

The problem is that I am currently a junior in a top 5 undergraduate business school. Due to problems in my family business, I had to work full-time for my freshmen and sophomore years, leading me to entering junior year with a 2.8. By the time I apply in my first round (explain later) I expect to have a 3.5.

I have two issues that are bothering me and confusing me to no end. My plan is to apply for the fall of 2010 and then once again for the fall of 2011 (to increase my chances). I expect that I will be able to do this as I will most likely enter into an accelerated master's program in a political science school during my senior year and the following year (if this happens, my GPA when applying for the fall of 2011 should be around a 3.7).

The question, to me, is (1) how will the schools look at me applying straight out from school WHILE having poor grades (2.8) in the first two years, and (2) secondly how do they look at reapplications exactly? I know they keep the old applications for review and comparison, which is what is scaring me. The difference between both my applications (fall 2010 and fall 2011) will be increased GPA and increased good grades in microeconomics, statistics, and generally quantitative courses, and further recommendations for prolific professors. Thirdly (3) how exactly do schools evaluate the dual-degree applicants? I have noticed the check mark place on the files and am a bit suspicious as to how they influence in the application. For example, applying to HBS and KSG, would HBS view my application TO HBS differently if I checked for a dual-degree with KSG?

What do you guys advise me to do? Further, it is critical for me to include my fall transcripts when applying (1 year earlier) for both applications. I am a bit confused as to whether R2 will allow me to do this?

Additionally, it should be noted that I come from a nontraditional field (family business, I come from a poorly represented country of applications - low amount of competition).

Although I know this is not the section for this, it should be noted that my list continues as:

5. LBS (MBA)
6. IMD (MBA)
7. LSE (MBA)
8. Oxford (MBA)
9. Cambridge (MBA) - not sure about this one.

Thanks for the help guys, and if any other undergrad applicants would like to turn this thread into addressing early career candidate needs in general I'd be pleased. It seems our applications are sometimes the most difficult to sell.

Early.

Irishfan · Answer

Just my opinion, but it's my impression that these programs that take students directly from undergrad, or at least guarantee a spot in a future class, are highly selective. That being said, I think you'll be fighting an uphill (vertical) battle trying to gain admission with a 2.8, regardless of recommendations and other various statistics. Even a 3.5 is too low for an application with zero experience, IMHO.

Also as a side point, experience + MBA is looked at much more positively than no experience + MBA. A few of my friends who did the Indiana University 3 years undergrad + 2 years MBA program are regretting their decisions. Had they waited and done a traditional MBA, they would have had many more opportunities available to them. Granted, IU isn't HBS, but still.

sudden · Answer

You have not posted much about your background, so it's difficult to evaluate you, but based on what you have provided, I would say you are not currently a competitive candidate for the programs you have listed (maybe Yale). I am not trying to be a jerk, but somebody needs to be realistic with you. How much research have you done about this process? The people who are selected to HBS, Stanford, etc. right out of undergrad are the best of the best. A 2.8 or potentially 3.5 is not going to get it done.

A representative profile of a guy who recently (2005?) got accepted to Stanford looks like this:

- 3.9 GPA from a top undergrad
- 99% GMAT score
- Class President
- Some kind of military / leadership training experience
- Presumably solid essays and recs
- A double helping of luck

A 3.5 GPA is 1) below average at some of the schools you listed; 2) is expected and is not considered a bonus.

Given your demographic profile and rising trend for GPA, I think you *might* have a chance ~3 years after graduation if you start preparing now and execute well. That probably sounds overly dramatic, but keep in mind that this is a super competitive process and that there are thousands of candidates out there who are vying for the same spots but don't have damaged transcripts.

sam77sam7 · Answer

I think your best bet would be to skip 2010, earn your accelerated poli sci masters, get top top grades from now until then, really work on your ECs at the same time, and apply in the Fall of 2011. I don't think planning to apply and then re-apply is a good idea.

Nail your remaining years of school, work your ass off for some meaningful ECs, and then apply in 2011.

Just my two cents!

~Sam

Nail your remaining years of school, work your ass off for some meaningful ECs, and then apply in 2011.

Just my two cents!

~Sam

jallenmorris · Answer

If you're applying to all 6 (counting the 2 dual degree programs) you're talking about $1500 (give or take a few) and you don't even sound confident that you'll get where you want to go. Why spend that kind of money and time preping for the GMAT when you don't expect to get accepted anywhere for Fall of 2010? If you already think you'll get dinged across the boards, that lack of confidence is likely to come out in your essays and surely result in what you expected.

1.  identfy your best path to make yourself competitive for the schools you want to attend 
2.  raise your gpa as much as possible 
3.  do not neglect to get some great work experience maybe aside from the family business 
4.  Get some great extra curricular activities. Go save some baby seals. 
5.  Figure out when the best time for you to attend these programs and apply then. DOn't do it before you're ready and the programs you're talking about are trending younger, but i think many of them still want at least some work experience. I'm not sure how the adcoms will view the work you did in your family business because we don't know what type of work it is.

Have you taken the GMAT yet? If so , how did you so?

jallenmorris · Answer

Don't approach this as if it is easy, which I don't think you are, but you do have to be realistic. The difference between going to H/S/W and going to Yale, Darden, Ross can mean the difference in $MILLIONS$ even tens of millions of the course of a person's career. Think of this like the winning lottery ticket that is actually based mostly on merit (and some on luck). You're going to have people competing against you that are insanely competitive and have wanted to be a Harvard MBA since they were 8 and started selling lemonade outside their family business and donated 10% of the profits to Green Earth! We joke, but it seriously is that competitive.

Early · Answer

Thank you for your responses. It seems my original post was lacking and confusing, which has risen to some replies that do not address the specific matter at hand.

I DO have work experience. The point of those 2 years that created a 2.8 cumulative was that I took a company accumulating approximately 100,000 in losses per month (millions by the time I took control) and restaffed it (from a clean state) and managed it, while de-investing and re-investing in different fields - leading to a profitable company. I cut major losses and developed some profits.

My position in the company was as an "Acting Managing Director" and now as the full-out "Managing Director", despite now managing it overseas through a hand-picked GM.

Additionally, I don't know how this is seen (which is why it is even more confusing), but I am set to take the CEO position in a real-estate company valued at $200 million within the next 5 years (this is why I want my MBA now).

So, I have experience (2 years, restructered a failing company to profit) and almost guaranteed opportunities for sucess (in line for taking the CEO position of a private real estate firm).

The issue with the public policy and political science stuff is that I am also interested in pursuing work in the government to restructure the poor public education of my country. My grandfather was a major minister and therefore despite the bureaucracy I have the ability to work to fix things from the inside (honestly, this is my goal here - totally not for personal profit).

After I was able to settle things with the company that I had to run for the last two years, I have done as much research as I could (I am in the process), and have come to the conclusion that my GPA is thoroughly dissatisfactory, even at the expected 3.5 in the fall of 2010. So, I thought that I might pursue an accelerated program in the meantime to strengthen my economics, statistics, and quantitative abilities, further strengthening my application for the desired MPP and MBA programs.

As I said, the issues I am worried about are:

1. The grades factor (despite the work experience and responsibilities, I am still right out of school)
2. To increase my chances - I have considered applying twice, once during the first year of my accelerated program (this would make me have to leave the program, but they wouldnt even know I was in it), and once more one year before my graduated from the accelerated Master's, this would be my last opportunity. Is it a good idea to reapply, or to limit applications to 2011 and therefore only have one chance?
3. Does the dual-degree applicant factor impact the admissions decisions at the individual schools? That is, would HKS evaluate me as an applicant to their school or as an applicant to their school and HBS, and the same for HBS? Would it influence individual decisions? I am specifically concerned here because with Harvard, I would be quite satisfied to attend either program, the dual program being just the ultimate path. However, if it would hurt my chances then I would apply to them individually.

I thank you all sincerely for your help, and hope that in my further readings (I have 6 MBA books in front of me!) I will come across information that could also benefit the community here.

And again, sorry for the long post and extremely unique position. You should also note that the reason I have no interest in any of the schools not listed here is because they would not be worth the lapse in my career time to me (due to cultural perceptions of the schools). Further, I cannot pursue the degrees in any future time in my careers as it would also not be beneficial to me anymore (I have approximately 5 years of training time that I can use, but after that time the marginal benefit falls dramatically).

Thanks again.

Early · Answer

Additionally, I have not taken the GMAT. I am beginning my daily work on it today and expect to have approximately 1 year of daily work on it by test-taking time. I hope that my score should be in the averages of these schools.

Irishfan · Answer

If I was inheriting a CEO position in a company in 5 years, I'd be less concerned about brand name of a school and more concerned about gaining specific skills and experience relevant to whatever industry/company I knew I'd be working in. In other words, why are you so worried about receiving essentially business gen-ed at a top tier school when: 1. you're (apparently) already capable of running a business, 2. none of these programs are real-estate specific, especially not in whatever country you'd need it to be, and 3. you're already guaranteed a job? Is this position contingent on you receiving a top-tier MBA? If not, who cares if you went to Harvard/Stanford/Wharton/U. of Phoenix Online?

If I was you, I'd make it over to the company I'd be inheriting ASAP (I'd probably drop out of school, frankly) and work in some sort of advisory role to gain an understanding of the ins and outs of the company before I took the reins. Tangentially, if I was an employee of a company in which a 27-year-old was taking control in 5 years, I'd have my CV ready to go, stat.

Regarding your questions, I'd be shocked if anyone here could give you an answer better than the equivalent of an absolute shot in the dark.

Impossible is nothing, indeed!

Raabend · Answer

I studied for 2 months, bombed the test, and still got a 700.....plus I am generally a moron to begin with so I am sure you will be fine

Early · Answer

Thank you for your reply Irishfan. It seems we think on similar terms, I did indeed wish to drop out, which is suffice it to say what I almost did in the first two years (I payed VERY little attention to my schooling due to the dramatic situation with which family's small business was in).

Unfortunately, receiving the CEO position is somewhat dependant on how I am viewed in the family. The business that I lead is mine one way or another, but this major one is dependant on my abilities. Despite being reknowned in my family as an up and comer in my generation, I need further proof of my abilities to ENSURE that I receive the position. This is why my list is so limited. If its not Harvard, MIT, Stanford, or Yale - its honestly just not worth the two years for me. With the European schools its only a year, so I am a bit less worried - but I have still limited the choices thoroughly.

I am trying to be realistic and to plan ahead as much as possible. I guess all I can do is make sure that I graduate with a 3.5, get over 700 on the GMAT, and receive an award or something during my last two years. The accelerated program is a good stepping stone to the others I think.

I guess my case is a bit too specific lol.

Early · Answer

Congrats!!!!

Irishfan · Answer

I see - that makes a whole lot more sense. In all honesty, my (shot in the dark) guess would be that you'd absolutely need to ace the GMAT (99%) in order to overcome your "lackluster" (quotes because it wouldn't be) hypothetical 3.5 GPA. Studying for a year is definitely a good start!

I'd definitely work on getting the stories of the basic questions presented on the application, i.e. why MBA, why now, why school X, etc., etc. Unfortunately, I don't see "to look good to my family" as a great answer. However, I'd just spin it based on your former experiences. "Why now" would definitely be the hardest facet to address.

Dual degrees won't hurt, and if anything, if you get a good grad GPA, it could mitigate your undergrad one to a certain extent. Edit: I just realized you were talking about applying for the dual degree programs. I've heard that these programs are tougher to get into than the general MBA program.

Reapplication is questionable - it's rumored that with many of these schools, you only get one shot, and any reapplication is next to impossible. However, it's also rumored that NASA faked the moon landings. Just something to consider, I certainly don't want to be propagating any false facts.

ko · Answer

I've looked into applying straight out of undergrad extensively (I'm planning on giving it a shot also). In the process, I've talked to more than a few people that have pulled it off at Stanford, MIT, and Harvard. To be honest, the previous comments are pretty accurate. It is still very, very difficult to get into any of these programs without work experience if you've got a 750 and a 3.9. It will be significantly more difficult to do so with anything less than those stats. And with those stats, you're only in the "let's take a second look" pile. Now the rest of your story sounds pretty good for a college senior applicant, but it is very likely that without clearing the academic bar (which is absolutely higher for applicants with little or no post-bacculaureate work experience), it's going to be pretty difficult. Not impossible, but very difficult. Just know what you're getting yourself into.

As far as Yale goes, I can't really comment on what it takes to get in there straight out of undergrad, as I haven't really researched that school much. But I can tell you that more than likely, it would have to be through the Silver Scholars Program, which has you attend 1 year, work 1 year, and attend your 2nd year.

As for your work during undergrad - while you might view it as work experience, admissions committees are going to be skeptical. In almost all cases, work during undregrad is dismissed as not "professional full-time work experience." There are exceptions to this, but you and your work experience have to be very convincing. Some schools throw in the requirement that it must be "post-bacculaureate" to count as "work experience" (not all, but some).

Good luck. I in no way mean to say that what you're trying to do can't be done - it can. It's just very very difficult and you need to be realisitic in your chances.

Early · Answer

smkrn,

I was hoping you'd drop by. You seem to be one of the few undergrads here and I was quite interested in hearing more of your opinions.

The work experience factor is what I expect to be my primary sell of - as it contains two primary pieces of information that Harvard pays a lot of attention to: 1) Leadership 2) Potential for sucess (career sucess). My weakness lies in the potential for academic sucess, which is why I am devoting such a long period of time for the GMAT, and also considering lengthening my study at my current school by one full year through the accelerated program.

How is your application going? Where are you applying to and how do you fall within the general judgement fields (leadership, potential for sucess career-wise and academically) and the specific ones for us (WHY NOWWWW, lol)?

ko · Answer

Ya there aren't too many of us.

How many hours per week were you working? If it happened to be close to 40, you'll have a better chance convincing admissions boards that it qualifies as professional work experience (assuming that it's the same level of work that a college graduate would perform, which it sounds like from the limited description).

My applications are going well enough, I suppose. To answer your question, I guess I line up alright academically. I'm double majoring in mechanical engineering and math with a GPA of 3.99, and I got a 740 on the GMAT. As for assessing career success potential, that's obviously the hardest for us coming out of undergrad. I've had a couple of good engineering internships, but there's only so much you can do there. You'll probably be able to display career potential a little better than I can.

I'm justifying the need for an MBA now by using my internship experiences combined with the necessity of business knowledge for my career goals as justification. This is the hardest and probably most important question to answer for us.

I applied to the HBS 2+2 program (and just got rejected yesterday). I'm also going to apply to MIT, UCLA, and probably Stanford. I was going to try Chicago and Wharton also, but have recently decided to only apply to programs that will allow me to defer for 2 years. Some work experience will be important in getting a general management job post-MBA (in my estimation).

ko · Answer

Lengthening your school career to get more grades (that are higher) might help. Some schools pay more attention to what your GPA was your last to years, so that could help.

refurb · Answer

I think you are WAY over estimating what the H/S/W name will get you. Talking with alumni from that group of schools, it's not that stark of a difference.

An MBA from H/S/W might get you in some doors that Ross or Darden won't, but 10 years down the road, your success will be based on your own merit, not on the school you went to.

RF

Early · Answer

smkrn,

Yes I had over 40 hours and had the role of Managing Director. I recreated a company, you seem to have missed this.

I saw that you stated that you were a white average joe in a previous post. I think that that is a very far depiction from what you are stating about your (impressive) academic background.

Unfortunately, you seem to fall perfectly into applicant category that most of us (undergrad to MBA's) do, which is that of a perfect GPA & GMAT, some academic involvement, but a lack of uniqueness in the adcoms eyes. From what I've gathered from my intensive readings (it seems the guys here are around my knowledge level of the schools generally), you usually need your academic background to be accepted as an undergrad + something unique.

My problem is that I have the unique factor many times over, but thoroughly lack the extreme academic competition among early career candidates.

What are your unique characteristics? They could be found in research or career aspirations if they aren't in your background (Im just assuming since you called yourself a white average joe).

I hope we can all help each other cover up our weaknesses.

Early · Answer

I forgot to mention:

1. They pay much closer attention to the final 2 years from what I can tell, along with the course descriptions (titles), and the trend. They try to figure out what your course selection shows about you and your interests, along with its reflection on your abilities.

2. You shouldn't consider a 740 not very competitive. Many candidates will have higher, but from what I can judge adcoms start ignoring the GMAT when you get past 720 or so (UNLESS they are trying to increase their average - I have not been able to figure this part out since they wouldn't admit it obviously).

The rises in GMATs past the 700 level may just be due to people like us trying to beat the system. The more interest we are in MBAs, it seems, the more we study.

Additionally, refurb, your post is thoroughly centered on a US perspective and I think its good to point that out. Darden and Ross provide majorly less reputation boosting in many parts of the world. But I agree, 10 years out its not going to be as much of a factor in job placement, but will still be a factor in reputation - which is a somewhat critical depending on how you view it.

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